Yeah, which ticks me off because of the time and $$$ I spent to learn this move in order to pass my test...not to mention the bruises from getting my feet tangled and crashing while practicing it. It took me over a year to learn it. Oh well, I'm sure I'm a better skater because of it...

Yes, Patty, I'm sure the move was well worth the time and bruises.
I told my coach (I finally saw her after a 5-week hiatus!) about this proposed change in the moves, and she said, "Well, if that passes, it'll go into effect next September; we'll probably have you take your gold moves by then."
Yet another reason why I believe my coach takes crack.
[And so what was the FIRST thing my coach had me work on? The bracket pattern for gold moves. Ugh.]

Um, how long did it take me to hunker down and finally commit to and pass my silver moves (at least 15 months?)--and the only impetus there was to be able to skate adult pairs (the old rules stated that both partners had to be at least silver level); the rules changed so that I could be a lower level than my partner. That said, it was well worth the time and effort (need I mention frustration?).

But please, please, please, Governing Council, banish that Novice pattern in Gold MIF. I'll be eternally grateful.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

The turnout comes, as has already been pointed out, in the choctaw from the BI edge to the FO edge. I've seen a lot of adult skaters struggle and struggle with this. If you're 40 years old and your hips are turned in, all the time in the world isn't going to dramatically increase your turnout.
Creating tests to accomodate adults means you have to be understanding of some of the physical limitations, like bad knees and bad backs. Twisting can be really hard on older adults.

There are a couple of ways to look at this. First of all, this is a very part time hobby for us adult skaters. We do it for fun. If you make it too difficult for the majority of us, it becomes frustrating. In our busy grownup lives, we have to set priorities. The really frustrating hobby inevitably falls to the side. So what have we accomplished? We have a small group of uberskaters left in the sport, and the frustrated skaters leave the sport. How is that promoting figure skating? Which leads to the more crass way to look at it: the skating community is a constituency of USFSA that needs to be kept reasonably happy. Adult skaters do a huge amount of work at the local club level. If a lot of adults in my area got frustrated and left the sport, my club would be S.O.L. We fill positions as test chair, hospitality chair, vice-president, treasurer, board member, and are a major source of volunteer labor.

I really believe that the adult track should be adult-friendly. That's why there IS an adult track. That's what it was started for -- acknowledgement of the fact that we're not just overgrown kids. And these are *minimum* standards. Skaters 25 and older always have the option of taking the standard track tests, and any skater always has the option of exceeding the test standard!

To achieve the same skill level, kids do NOT have to take twice as many tests as we do.

Good Lord! I'm 40 and I take Vioxx. I could die any day now! I have to hurry.

It's all about balance. We want to be the best skaters we can be. We want to have fun with our hobby. We have some physical and time limitations that kids don't have. So we try to strike a balance among those 3 things. Demanding that we meet the same standards as kids tips that scale too far to one side, in my opinion. We want tests that are challenging but not too difficult; we want to have fun competing (why not?). If removing those 3s keeps 5 more adults skating, it's worth it.

And my favorite tongue-in-cheek argument of all: because I'm a grownup and I said so!

I'm starting to get offended.

That's great that some adults can afford to retire or quit their jobs and devote so much time to their hobby, be it skating, golf, or whatever. But the majority don't (when you become an adult, you'll understand more about this). As for whether adults can have "challenging" things to work on, it has has already been pointed out that any adult can take standard track MIF and FS tests and have competitive opportunities at any level, up through Senior FS (that would be Masters). And I'm sure you're also aware that there are plenty of skills to work on that aren't specifically covered in a test - do you need to be tested on something to want to work on it and put it in a program, or just master it for the sake of learning?

Where do these adults get the money???
Geez, if only I could win the lottery!

Yikes--switch to Celebrex already! That should be safe until the FDA says otherwise.

Well, I'm 29 and am practically on an ibuprofen drip.

Back to the topic at hand.
While I don't mind having MIF standards as part of the adult track, I DO want to at least know that I have a reasonable chance of practicing and passing these moves. After sulking over the silver moves, I had the chance to talk to a judge. I was explaining how forlorn I was becoming over these moves and that I would never be able to perfect them. She said, "Well, we don't expect them to be perfect, just reasonably performed." Why was she never on my judging panel?!

Ok, so some people posting say that the adult track is being watered down (I disagree). But is there anyone who has already passed the adult levels and is working on the adult moves? I know a few who are in gold, and after seeing what is in gold MIF, they have decided to practice the gold moves just to be in the swing of things.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Fadedstardust wrote:
>>But that's not really true about the time thing- because kids have more than twice as many tests to pass as you guys do, so it more than equals out.<<

As skaternum pointed out, to achieve the same skill level, there are the same amount of tests. Gold skills = Juvenile. 8 tests (4 MIF/4 FS) to get there for both adult and standard track.

>>It's not like you have to pass a certain test by a certain time, you can take your time at it.<<

Not if you want to compete in qualifying competitions or at Adult Nationals, where you have to pass the right test by Jan 15. The same is true for kids as well - when do they need to pass a certain test by a certain time, other than for qualifying competitions pass by Sept 1?

>>This is (as I'm sure you know) a very difficult and involved sport, and if you don't have that much time to devote to it then that's understandable but then you will just progress slower<<

I agree.

>>that doesn't mean important moves should be taken off because they take "too long" to pass.<<

Well, it's not like we're talking about abolishing the moves, just placing them at their proper level. Adults will encounter most of the Gold test if they continue beyond Gold to take Intermediate and Novice moves. Removing that Novice pattern only means that the skaters need to build more of a skill level before doing that pattern.

>>Meanwhile I know plenty of adults who are retired (some who have even quit their jobs) to do skating full time, and it's not fair that they don't have anything challenging to work on anymore in the adult track because the entire track was lowered and watered-down to accomodate people who can't devote enough time to it.<<

Excuse me, but HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Would that I could quit my job and skate full-time! I think this form of lucky adult is few and far between - and why should we make skating only available to the privledged? Who cares if they don't have anything to work on in the adult track, that's what Masters is for. No one is preventing adults from testing the standard track. The adult track is there expressly FOR those adults who can't devote as much time and energy to it as they'd like, because Life gets in the way.

>>It's the same with the kids- some kids can't AFFORD daily practice, some only do it weekly, and they'll progress slower. But they don't get to skip stuff because of that fact. As long as adults are capable of passing these, I don't think the time issue should really be a reason to drop them.<<

No one is saying that adult moves tests should be banished or ignored. I think the majority opinion here is that they are beneficial and should be kept. The discussions have been about the appropriateness of Move A on Test B, and wouldn't it be more appropriate on Test A, etc.

I truly think you need to skate a mile in someone else's skates to understand this.

I agree with everything skaternum has said except this. I have so little turn out that I actually have turn in and have been considering working on a "pigeon eagle". I have no problem at all with this Choctaw. I have seen lots of kids turn half of a BO three on when stepping forward, and off ice, I do feel the pressure in my knees. On ice, however, I think it must be a matter of compensating with upper body rotation and fast movement of the hips like in a FI Mohawk.

What I see as the major problem with the alt threes is the check on the FO pattern, and control of the BI edge to the line. I've seen many kids learn this move and be able to get back to the line and step forward without putting their free foot down in one lesson (not to passing standard, just be able to do it). Adults seem to struggle forever on this. I even know one adult who passed Prelim moves a few years ago, who now finds that she is putting her foot down again.

Anyway, I'm one who has chosen to stick with the standard track because I will never compete and would love to teach moves. Don't know if I will ever pass Prelim with those spirals, as I'm 57 and also just about on an ibuprofen drip like NoVa Sk8r. The inclusion of the alt three patterns in adult Pre-Bronze was one of the things that helped me decide to stay with the standard track.

__________________

Celebrex is not great for people with sensitive stomaches, I read... You guys never heard of Vitamin M(otrin?) I usually try to take care of aches and pains by stretching afterwards and taking a LOOOONG hot shower or soak in the jacuzzi. Nothing like heat to relieve tightness in muscles!!!

The alt 3's are not that bad on the FO3's for me and I don't have much turnout...(couldn't barely do inside spread eagles...) It's the FI3's that I have trouble with!!! As far as the choctaw from the BI edge and stepping to the FO3's I've found the only way I got myself to do it is to really bend the knee that is holding the BI edge (while keeping my back straight) and keep the foot close and in a T position. However, as skaternum says, it's not that easy... and unfortunately I still have to practice this a LOT in order to get the power 3's. (It's one of my major "issues" with Bronze Moves in fact!)

So... mixed blessing for me... if I ever pass Bronze Moves, you'll know that I probably got it eventually...

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

If it were only that simple. To control my long term back problems, I need serious anti-inflammatories. Ibuprofen was ripping my stomach out, as was naproxen. Both Vioxx and Celebrex worked okay without bothering my stomach, but now Vioxx is off the market. My doctor gave me a prescription for Bextra. Bextra, Celebrex, and Vioxx are all Cox-2 inhibitors, and Swami Skaternum predicts that eventually the whole class of drugs will be pulled. If one causes heart attacks, it's a pretty safe bet that the others will too. So that leaves me ... back with no good anti-inflammatory. Hot baths are helpful for minor aches & pains, but if I go a couple of days without my drugs, the tightening starts and within a few more days, I'm in trouble! It's fun being old!

Okay everyone, please repeat after me:


Remember this is only a proposal and may or may not make it to GC- even then it may not pass- remember what happened to the 12/4 proposal!

Nova

I think you have the power and age on your side to do the gold moves as they stand for now. Just think what it will do for you in general skating skills. I promise you it will give you a great sence of accomplishment when you pass it and you will be able to start working on the gold Free. Your a stong skater. I had to start at pre-bronze and move through all the test to get to gold. I never competed or did any test as a kid but I have to admit that 6 years as a chorus skater helps one to accomplish these test much faster.

Some of the silver moves where a real challange and the Novice moves in gold will keep you busy, I think the changes for the adults will be welcomed by most. Change is what its all about. go for it man

Does anyone know if there is a test requirement for masters ?
I can't find this ? Im not even close to that level but Id sure like to know whats required ??

"The greatest risk in life is not takeing one "

By definition, the tests for masters are the standard track freeskating tests -- from Intermediate through Senior. If you don't have a rule book handy, you can look at the announcement for Adult Nationals. That's a useful, concise place to find info like that. It's on the USFSA website.

Maybe I should also mention for my particular back problem, having a sit stand workstation and having monthly maintanance with my chiro seems to help. Oh, and for joints, my chiro suggested Glucosamine. (I've been taking Glucosamine Chronitron, but I was told now that the one I should take is the Glucosamine Sulfate... Weird!!! (NoVa -- you're the chemist geek... you know anything about this?)

I took the one I'm not that much younger than you, skaternum and being old DOES sucks!!! I have the incentive now to work extra hard on those moves, b/c 1) it helps me to do more difficult footwork in my program, 2) it helps my edges so it would make going into my jumps just a tad easier.. and 3) if I get too old for jumps, I sure as hell want those edges to still be there so I could still continue on -- maybe switch over to ice dancing then?

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Thanks for the info on the Masters.
I guess I can forget about that.

Hope you don't mind if I jump in with some info here. Studies have shown recently that glucosamine is the effective ingredient and that chondroitin is ineffective. I'm thrilled by that bit of info because I cannot tolerate chondroitin, but seem to be fine with just the glucosamine, although the 1500 mg tabs are huge

__________________

You mean you've been taking a glucosamine/chondroitin sulfate mixture?

I've not heard anything negative about chondroitin. I have heard not to use glucosamine if you're allergic to shellfish (see below). Glucosamine may raise your blood insulin level if you have diabetes.

And here's more than you wanted to know:
Glucosamine, an amino sugar, promotes the formation and repair of cartilage and is an important building block of many glycosaminoglycans, which are molecules that form the matrix of cartilage. It is derived from chitin, a substance found in the exoskeletons of shellfish such as crabs. Glucosamine is mainly found in 2 forms (2 different counterions): glucosamine sulfate and glucosamine HCl.

Chondroitin attracts fluid into the cartilage. Without this fluid, cartilage would become malnourished, thinner and more fragile. In this way, chondroitin protects cartilage from breakdown and also stimulates the synthesis of new cartilage.

Some of the supplements also contain methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), an organic supply of sulfur (organic in the 'organic chemistry' sense, as opposed to the inorganic sense). MSM supplies sulfur to cartilage, which is necessary for its regeneration.

Most people I know take the glucosamine/chondroitin mixture. I'm not sure as to why your doc suggests otherwise. I only really know the chemistry, not the clinical/histological/pathological details.

Can anyone else provide details?

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

I skated up to Juvenile in competition in the early 1980's. Never took the freestyle test, because I couldn't pass the second figure test. However, I had several fairly solid double jumps as a kid (sal, toe and loop). If I hadn't passed ISIA 6, I could have actually skated Bronze (because the only USFSA fs test I passed was the preliminary test), or have chosen Silver. I don't think the silvers would have been too thrilled to have someone like me skating in their ranks - with a very solid axel and working on doubles, even after many, many years off the ice.

I agree with Michigansk8er - pre-juv should be silver, and juv gold. It just makes sense.

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Look at it this way - they do make the Intermediate power push 3's (or whatever they're called) around the end much easier to handle .

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I was only talking about the alt 3s, not the novice moves. I think the adult moves are badly planned and don't reflect a steady progress, as most people have said, they should be completely reviewed. I just think the alt 3 should be moved to Bronze, not removed. If Gold equals out to Juvenile in the regular track, then I don't see why you guys should have to take Int. or Novice moves unless you want to move on to the regular track, personally.

I never noticed the turnout issue of the choctaw in between the alt 3s, I remember HATING the alt 3s, but it's been a long time and I don't really remember too much about them other than my hatred for them and the fact that they taught me a lot about control in general. I guess, at the end of the day, that I hope that whatever is best for the Adult Skating Community gets approved, whatever motion that may be.

Ugh! I know I'd certainly feel the same way if I'd had to learn that @!#$&* move! I may actually even be epxeriencing a little "survivor guilt" since I will probably not be testing Gold MIF until next October.

Maybe you should put those 3-turns from hell in a circular footwork sequence in your program so that you can make the judges go ooh and aah. Especially after next September when the new Gold skaters won't even be able to do it!

Okay, I got confused.

I think what I interpret from hubby was that the chiro says that you "should NOT take glucosamine HCl -- it's the wrong form." (Don't know what he meant that that... and certainly up until now hubby hasn't even heard of glucosamine pills outside of my shopping for them.)

I think he's okay with the "glucosamine/chondroitin" mixture -- it's the type of glucosamine itself he's particular about... (BTW: I personally also take the "glucosamine/chondroitin" mixture too.)

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I'm not NoVa, but my parents both have arthritis, and my cousin, who is a doctor, told them not to bother with the Chondroitin, but to take double the dose of plain Glucosamine. He said you actually need more than you think - twice the daily dose is what he recommends - and he also said that it works for about 4 people out of 5.

I take the regular amount of Glucosamine, as a preventive more than a cure (but I do notice if I don't take it!), and I also take cod-liver-oil capsules. I'm not sure which it is that works, but certainly one of them does!

Skaternum - I also recommend those wheat bags they sell. You can make your own easily enough, just put a pound of wheat (or brown rice, if you can't get, or are allergic to wheat) and a couple of tablespoons of lavender flowers into an appropriately-sized fabric bag, then heat in the microwave for 1.5 minutes, shake, and repeat. Wonderful.....

Incidentally, I'm 51 and my coach has decided he's not satisfied with the amount of turnout I'm getting.... sigh....

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

OK, I have consulted with my trusty Merck Index (what else is there to do on a Monday after Thanksgiving?). The preferred form of glucosamine is the sulfate form. And looking at the molecular weight of chondroitin--~50,000, which is huge--you can see why it is NOT absorbed very well. In contrast, glucosamine (which, for my chemist friends out there, is just the aminated form of glucose) has a molecular weight of 179.

So, while chondroitin sulfate is the most abundant of glycosaminoglycans in the body and predominant in cartilage, tendons and ligaments, it cannot be augmented well by oral intake except by increasing the intake of glucosamine and thereby providing material for the manufacture of chondroitin. Therefore, it makes sense that it is more cost effective to purchase pure glucosamine than the combination of the glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate.

Hope this helps!
Back to 'work.'

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.