The term "pick stop" seems to be more of a rollerblade term, or rather it's definitely not in the standard "figure skaters vocabulary" or the closest we have to one.

Snowplow stops, t-stops and 2-foot hockey stops are generally taught to skaters fairly early on. My recollection is that the snowplow stop was taught in ISI Alpha, the T-stop was taught in ISI Beta, and the hockey stop in either ISI Gamma or ISI Delta. I have no idea where any of these skills are taught in the USFS Basic Skills lesson structure, as the rink I originally learned to skate at used the ISI lesson structure.

Besides some differences in pick design, the higher end blades tend to be made of better quality materials (presumably to be more able to withstand take-offs and landings of multiple revolution jumps). There's also differences in the taper of the blade (there's both parabolic blades and dovetail blades...both of which require a fairly skilled sharpener to handle them without totally ruining the blade).

Dance and synchro blades tend to have very short heels (that don't stick very far past the heel of the skate boot, if at all). This minimizes the chance of stepping on the heel of the blade when doing the quick close footwork that's often seen in those disciplines. Some dance blades are thinner than "normal" freestyle blades also.

Hope this helps.

__________________
American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

jenlyon60

Hi Jenlyon60, thanks for replying.


I'm hoping that you mean the metal is less likely to dull after doing higher level jumps. Heaven forbid a blade snapping or shattering due to a forceful jump. I've never heard of this happening, but who knows... If metal integrity is truly the issue, I wonder why some of the high-end blades are offered in 14k gold? Gold has always been considered a softer metal (especially in its purest forms).




Yes, after a really hard look at the "synchro" blades I did notice that the heels were shorter. For example, the MK Vision heel was shorter than my MK Double Star. I definitely like the blade anatomy on that Vision skate, but I don't see myself doing Synchro. I also like the build of the dance blades. I'm predicting that I'll have a preference for dance or synchro blades instead of the freestyle blades. The ideal blade for me would probably be a figure blade, but I guess they don't make those anymore. Much like the pick, I really didn't like the limited mobilitiy in the heel. Rotating my foot up at the ankle caused the heel to grind into the ice. I've been watching the more experienced skaters do spins and spirals and I've never seen them place their weight on the heel of the blade. It's always in the tip or center of the blade. I could understand it playing a part in support when the upper body leans way back for artistic expression. I just don't see why the heel needs to come to a sharp point. When you rotate your foot upwards, you should still be able to glide. In my humble opinion, the heel just needs to be rounded at the end (not necessarily shortened). I saw a male freestyle skater in one of those skate books wearing some special skates that have the rounded edge. They took a picture of him with both toes up in the air. So I know it can be done.

I know I haven't passed an ISI test yet, but I sound like a level 7 complainer. lol I really do enjoy skating and I hope my posts aren't too negative.

The heel length will come in handy when you are doing jumps. The longer the blade, the more lee-way you will have if you need to "save" a jump. I'm jumping in synchro blades, and if my weight is too far back on my landing, I have a smaller room for error because of the reduced length of my blade.

My suggestion? Just skate! You will find out what you like and disklike from experience. I've been skating for almost 20 years...I know what kind of blades I like, how stiff I like my boots, how high I like my boots, how tight I like them, what kind of boot heel I like, etc. No amount of research or understanding of the mechanics of skates can replace just skating in my skates, and finding out how secure I feel in them. Good luck!

__________________
~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~

Nope--she means a blade snapping. It does happen, but usually to very elite skaters (and most often the heavier, taller guys) that are giving their blades a serious pounding for hours every day. (I can't remember exactly what the amount of force is in a triple or quad jump landing, but the amount of weight the blades (and body) are subjected to is just crazy.) Just in the last couple of years, someone snapped a blade at Nationals...I can't remember who. But they had to either borrow someone else's skate, or they got a brand-new blade, I don't remember which---either option is just downright frightening at that level at the last minute like that!

Blades are never 100% gold. Some are just coated in it. Besides, the part you sharpen absolutely has to be steel. If you look at the side of your blades, you'll see that there's a narrow, unpolished strip at the very bottom. That's where it will take a sharpening, and once that strip is sharpened away, there's no more life left in the blade--the other steel won't hold a sharp edge. (But most people never get to that point--they upgrade their blades long before they're 'used up'. Unless you get a royally crappy sharpening that takes far too much metal off at once.)







I use MK Visions for freestyle, and I adore them. I had MK Professionals before that, and while the Pros are a great beginning free blade, I really appreciate the smaller rocker on the Visions....I need that for spinning. Man, are they fast, too! (The first time I tried them out, I thought I was going to kill myself on the larger picks though--but it didn't take long to adjust.)


As for the heel thing--it's so hard to explain why one really does 'need' a tail on a blade, even though you don't 'skate' on it. My best advice is simply to get out there and skate, get some experience under your belt. Many, many things will become much clearer that way.



...I see luna and I had the same thought at the same time....

__________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson

www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!

The shorter heel isn't really noticeable on an isolated blade, but once you see the entire boot-and-blade setup, you'll be able to spot an ice dancer from a freestyler in 2 seconds. The heels are definitely shorter on the ice dance blade.

It helps with stability. I've definitely leaned way too far back and didn't fall because my blades had that heel. Of course, most elite skaters won't do that, but I've seen pictures of spread eagles done riiiight up to the edge of that heel point.

Michael Weiss also has the "Freedom Blades," where the blade comes right up to the heel. All he does differently is that he's able to do silly tricks with them.

Yeah, I suggest you just skate and see what it's like. Most of the time, our sitting here and analyzing every little point about our equipment doesn't help us become better skaters.

__________________
"The ice is finer when the zombie goes over it!" - said by an excited 5-year-old at the rink

"The life you've led is in fact not the totality of what is possible for you." - John Partridge of Wheaton College (and a Matrix philosopher )

Yes, you should just skate and have fun!

BUT some of us are definitely obsessed about the blade thing. I notice that it's about my favorite topic on these message boards and amongst my skating buddies.

__________________
Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Okay, I can't leave this blade thing alone (obsessed) -- the blade doesn't come to a sharp point, it is squared off. Don't skate on the back of your blade and don't rotate your foot upwards! (Why would you need to do that, anyways?? )

And as far as those "Freedom Blades" that Michael Weiss wears, I think those would be really bad for a beginning skater because if you rocked back at all (which we all will do at times) you will just roll over the back of the blade (which still has edges on it) and fall on your a**!!

Anyway, the back part of your blade, being squared off, should help you to stay upright if you happen to get onto the back part of the blade!!

You will notice that the elite skaters, even when they are "leaning back" the part of their body from the hips down is pretty much upright, with a deep bend at the ankles, knees and hips to keep everything in line and over their blades. I wish I could demonstrate this to you in real life instead of trying to describe it over the internet!!

__________________
Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

luna_skater

flippet
Anita18
icedancer2
I could be wrong, but it seems like there's some kind of pattern here.... Point taken. Skating is the key. I'll hit the ice, but first-



luna_skater
Yeah, I kind of guessed that might be a trade off, even though I've never skated on that kind of blade. Never the less, shorter length is very attractive to me. The synchro blades will have to wait though. For now, I'm going to practice with all-purpose blades for a year or two and see just how well-rounded the blades really are. Plus, this skating equipment costs a pretty penny when you add up the blades and boots. I'm not looking to spend anymore money anytime soon. I'm pretty tight when it comes to recreational spending. By the time I have spare cash for new equipment, I'm sure a year will have come and gone.


flippet
and

Interesting info. I guess you learn something new everyday. Now I will know when my blades have died. So the Visions feel faster? Hmm. Wonder why. I do want to try them out eventually. My guess is that I'll have a preference for the smaller rocker and shorter heel, but for now I'm trying to gain more experience on an all purpose blade.


Anita18
Yeah, that name sounds real familiar. I think he's the one I'm thinking of -jet black hair, medium build. Right? Never seen anyone else on them.


icedancer2
Interesting. Yes, I'm more of a visual learner, so video and graphics help me out big time. I've viewed some of the posted videos on this forum and it's cool to see what level the other members are at. Just about everyone that replied in this thread seems like they could be a coach or pro, so I'm very curious to see how you all skate. Anyone in here a coach? I have a digicam that can record about 30secs of movement. Perhaps I'll post up some stuff when I get into some of the compulsory moves.

Thanks again for the in depth responses everyone. I do appreciate it.

Well...you'll probably want or need to upgrade long before that. Also...if you get a bad sharpening or two that alters the rocker, they're also 'dead'. Find yourself a good, reliable sharpener (ask experienced figure skaters--because it doesn't matter as much to the hockey skaters), and try to stick with that person. Be very wary of a teenager behind the machine, unless they've been recommended to you.


Honestly, it was probably mostly the switch, and partially the smaller rocker--less blade touching ice, therefore less friction and drag. Also, I sharpen my own blades with a hand-held sharpener. My Visions have never seen a sharpening machine. It's possible that my old blades had had a not-so-good sharpening or two, and the rocker wasn't what it used to be.



Hee hee hee.

I'm only laughing because if you saw me skate now, you'd really think I must be crazy or something. I haven't skated more than once or twice in over three years, due to circumstances. I'm sure I could barely jump now, if I tried. I only got up to FS3 (that's FreeSkate level 3, in the ISI (Ice Skating Institute) method), which is where you start learning backspin, loop, and flip. Never really 'got' any of those (yet!). However, all the other adults that I've skated with tell me that I'm pretty good (only by comparison, I assure you!), but they also say that I have a way of explaining things that makes sense to a fellow adult. I can often explain things that I don't have the ability to fully demonstrate. Often in my group classes, when someone didn't 'get' what the coach was explaining, they'd look to me for translation/clarification. But yeah....match that with my skating, especially now, and it's pretty amusing.

__________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson

www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!

Actually, from what I've read, assuming the blades have been sharpened properly and have the original rocker intact, the chrome surface can be filed down farther, and you can keep sharpening them. There's no difference between the steel at the bottom of the blade and that a few millimeters up - it's just the chrome (or gold) surfacing that's different.

I also believe I read somewhere that higher quality blades hold their edge longer, requiring less frequent sharpenings. I think this is true, because I skate almost every day, and have had my Gold Stars sharpened 4 times in 6 months, 3 times professionally and once myself with a hand sharpening stone.

My old skates had John Wilson Majestics (with a ruined rocker, to boot), and I would notice that they needed a sharpening after 2-3 weeks. I have a deeper hollow now, so that affects things too - I'm not really sure whether either blade with the same hollow would hold the sharpening any longer.

__________________
Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

flippet
I'll make sure to watch out for that. The rink I'm at does share floor space with hockey players. I've heard enough about bad sharpening experiences that I'm going to look into the sharpener's history before I hand off my precious(pricey) blades. I do feel like it's a problematic loop for the youngsters trying to get a job. They can't get experience unless someone allows them to sharpen their blades and noone will hire if they don't have experience.

Maybe I should just learn to hand sharpen mine. I guess the only sharpener you can completely trust is yourself. Well, atleast once you get good at it.

Casey S
Useful information. I read about checking the hollow of a blade, but how do I check the rocker to make sure it's still intact? Do I trace the rocker on paper while the blade is still new? That's the only solution I could conjure up.

Careful with that. I've heard that some of the devices you can buy that are supposed to make the job easy (i.e. the Pro-Filer) will make horror of your blades. I just got a little stone from a pro shop, and used it once so far, though I'll probably touch them up before I go skating again. That's the nice thing about hand-sharpening: a small touch-up can be done without the amount of grinding away that comes with getting them machine-sharpened. I still plan to have them professionally sharpened every so often anyways.

No idea here, and I don't think it's even identical across different blade models; but here's a best guess:

With exception of the front of the blade just before the toepicks, the chrome siding is ground down the exact same amount all along the edge. On my old blades, which have a damaged rocker, the width of the ground area is much thinner at the rocker than at the tail of the blade. I imagine they could probably be fixed by evening things up, but I'm not sure. Spinning is dead impossible on them - that's the dead giveaway - though other stuff like 3-turns are plenty easy.

__________________
Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Yeah, that's basically how you do it. You can even see if the curve is smooth. My first sharpening was so bad (I went to the rink pro shop which was a bad idea) I could see how the blade straightened out by the toepick instead of coming to a nice curve. It was a REALLY bad job though, LOL.

__________________
"The ice is finer when the zombie goes over it!" - said by an excited 5-year-old at the rink

"The life you've led is in fact not the totality of what is possible for you." - John Partridge of Wheaton College (and a Matrix philosopher )

The Pro-Filer is what I use, and it's always been a dream for my blades--never even the slightest problem. If someone's had an issue with it, it probably depends on their skill or lack of it in using it. You have to know yourself--some people would never even dream of sharpening their own blades, feeling that it's better left to the professionals. Others are confident in their own sharpening skills. I could use a free stone if I wished--but I feel that the stone holder in the Pro-Filer simply makes it easier.

__________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson

www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!

I don't know about sharpening my own blades (eeek!), but I do carry a small stone to smooth away really obvious burrs from our cruddy rink floor. (Yes, I do wear guards but the concrete is showing through the rubber matting as you get off - at every gate!)

One thing I was told by an experienced sharpener is that you can tell if the edges are even (inside vs outside) by holding the boot upside down and level with the heel towards you at eye level, and placing a coin or similar across the two edges. Any disparity between the edges translates as a coin which is not horizontal. You can use this trick right along the full length of the blade by moving the coin (pick it up and move it, don't just slide the coin along).

This has been very informative! It also goes to show that we need to be as knowledgeable about our equipment as possible.

When I got fitted for my new boots, the person that fit me (unknown to me) didn't really know what she was doing and luckily, the boots fit close enough (although they are still a half-size too big I think). However, she was the person that mounted the blades and she screwed one up (which happened to be my landing foot). She later quit her job, and the rink closed for the summer, so I'm stuck with a mis-mounted blade and have to get it fixed elsewhere (of course at my own expense because the rink only has a 15-day window for fixing problems)

As far as blades go, I did get a better quality blade (Coronation Comet) which I love. You can tell the difference in the quality vs. the stock blade that comes with the boot. I didn't think there was that much difference in the toepick but between the rentals that I had started in, there is a big difference (in the rocker also). Edge quality is better, probably because these blades hold their sharpenings longer. I'm at a 1/2" hollow right now.

But the best thing to do is to get out and skate and get used to the toepick and boots and don't forget to keep you knees and ankles bent (I'm still working on that).

Terese

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

My Riedells have always been a bit 'slippy' in the heel and hardly ever feel snug enough there. I thought it was only my problem, but I see it's happened to other people. Weird. I've tried explaining the 'slippy heel' thing to my instructor but I don't think he gets what I mean. English is his second language(his first language Russian) and I'm not the best at verbally explaining myself.

In most tennis shoes I wear an 8.5 and my skates are 8 even. My feet are slightly narrow, especially at the ankles (most women's feet are narrower at the ankles anyway). Most of my street shoes are a bit loose at the ankles so it's no surprise that my skates are the same. I've never had SP-Teri's (the Riedells are my first "real" pair of skates, and only so far) so I can't comment on that.
When I got the skates, the girl at the store didn't even measure my feet. She just had me try on a few pairs and I had to use my judgment, even though I'd never worn stiff good quality skates before.

As for blades- I'm fortunate my instructor sharpens them.

__________________
Andrea

Andie,

What really suprises me is that 95% of all figure skates are sold to women. If they can't get THAT right, on a stock boot, who are they building them for? I have the exact problem with my off-the-shelf Riedells (and still have the box which claims "Riedell Fits!") In fact we have the same (well...except for one minor difference) size feet, even to the narrow heel and if they can't get it right for 95% of their market how about the other 5%? Of course not all of us can afford my solution (Custom Harlick boots) so there must be another solution.

Casey S
That's an intersting find. I read somewhere that a guy had calculated the average amount of steel that was shaved off for an individual sharpening session. I just wonder if there's a difference in finish or polish when you do it by hand versus the machine. This is something I'll have to check on when I try out the Pro-Filer.

Anita18
Oh boy, it's stories like this that are making me VERY hesitant to get my blades machine sharpened. What is the rink pro shop? Is that just the sharpening service offered at the rink? I know exactly what you're saying as far as the curve being straighter right after the pick. -Not good.


flippet
Yes, I was thinking this in the back of my mind. I understand what you're saying, even though it's hard to put into words. You have to "know yourself" or what I call listening to yourself in order to gauge how you're sharpening the blade. Without that kind of focus it's going to be a crappy job.


aussieskater
Yes, I read about this technique in some book. I think it was "Competitive Figure Skating A Parent's Guide" by Robert S. Ogilvie. It's a good book, and the coin technique should come in handy.

Skate@Delaware
Yes, I'm working on the bending also. It's extremely hard to bend at the ankles because the tougher leather boots aren't very flexible. That's why that Pro-flex boot looked neat. The ankle bending is a serious issue in my opinion. Here's how I see it: The inability to bend your ankles in that tight boot prevents your knee from moving over the foot. Since the hip is connected to the knee, the hip never centers over the skate and instead falls over the heel or even farther back. The upper body is connected to the hip so it also ends up over the heel. To compensate, the upper body can bend at the waist, but too much of that is probably considered bad form. When the skater tries to squat down and do a low spin, they just fall backwards because they can't get enough of their weight over the center of the skate. The extended leg helps the weighting, (kind of like "shoot-the-duck"), but it can't cure an inflexible boot. As I understand it, the hardness of the boot is for stability in higher level jumps and the slant in the boot is to assist the limited ankle mobility.

Andie
I know what you mean. I've worn Reidell 117's (a very soft boot) and I know they have heel slippage when I lace too loose. If the ankle support is broken down and there's bend lines going around your boot in that area, you'll probably get slippage. The other problem could be in sizing.


Cactus Bill
Well, what really surprises me is that percentage. Is that accurate? I know this is an off topic comment, but my goodness, I knew male figure skaters were scarce, but that's ridiculous! Perhaps the endangered male is just a U.S. phenomenon.
Everytime I see a guy on the ice with all these women it's like watching "Planet of the Apes". I've noticed that when a guy skates everyone stops to watch, even if he isn't the best skater. It's just sooo rare that it catches people's attention. Women are probably better skaters in just about every facet of figure skating, but men still add something to the ice. I just can't put my finger on it...

I guess the manufacturers have to make quadruple the number of white boots as black. Ice skating seems to be the only skating discipline left where the women and men are held to the boot shading rules. I've NEVER seen a man on white ice skates. There appears to be some leniency for changing the color of the skate for costume consistency. If the sport would loosen up on the rules, they could sell some more of those black boots gaining cobwebs. However, I must admit that I like the tradition.

I've seen a woman on black skates A few, actually

anyways. The nice thing about SP Teri and a few other boots is that you can get combination sizes... and have the heel made smaller than the ball (for those of you who have trouble with your heels slipping ) Mine is in a combination width and I *think* it's ok...

As far as bending... sometimes when you're breaking in skates, it helps to just not lace them up all the way (leave the top one out) to help you be able to bend. I never lace the top one, and never have, and it helps me, at least. I think my coach also mentioned unlacing the top actual LACE part (as in... not just the hooks) because that also helps bend? I'm not sure... she ended up telling me not to do that

*IceDancer1419*
I'll try this out. I may undo two hooks just to see the difference. Thanks for the tip.

Our own Jazzpants wore black boots until she got her gorgeous purple custom Harlicks.

__________________

dbny
*IceDancer1419*


Hmmm. Well, I have yet to see that, but I'll take your word for it. Have you seen freestyle women wearing these in a singles competition? I think most parents enter their kids into ice-skating for competition. When the parents or child meet with the coach, I'm sure the coach is telling them, "You need to buy some WHITE boots" (if it's a girl).

Aside - I just don't believe the recreational aspect has permeated ice skating. Once you start getting into the recreational realm, almost anything goes. This is not a bad thing. The sport can potentially grow as a result. Rollerblading recieved "X-treme sports" and rollerskating recieved "~rexing" and "artistic"/"jam"/"freestyle". The sport adjusts to the growth and re-standardizes itself. In the other disciplines, the number of women on white or black is pretty evenly distributed now. Most women that do the traditional figures in rollerskating still wear white though.

For what it's worth, there are a couple little boys at my old rink who practice in white skates. It's probably just because their parents were able find used white skates a whole lot easier than black ones, and they don't want to buy new skates as their child is growing (or as these are pretty early skaters, maybe their parents didn't want to buy new skates until they knew whether their child was even going to stick with it for a while!).

I don't think I would ever wear white skates though. Too embarassing! It would be like wearing a skirt and glitter out there!

__________________
Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Usually rinks have shops by the ice that sell hockey and figure skating supplies. Many of them also have machine sharpeners that cater usually to hockey players (since hockey skates need to be sharpened much more often than figure skates). The machine sharpening is perfectly fine, ONLY if you get a sharpener who knows what he's doing. Usually hockey kids man the sharpening, but if you ask around, there's usually a figure skating coach at the rink who also knows how to do it. Now I go to private sharpeners who only do figure skates. They know waaay more than me about blades, so...yeah.

I wouldn't worry about the amount of metal being taken off after a sharpening. If it's a good machine sharpening, it shouldn't be much. If it's more convenient and cost-effective for you to do your own hand-sharpening, go ahead. But since I don't sharpen my blades very often, it probably wouldn't pay for itself by the time I need to upgrade anyway. (Whereas my skates have probably paid for themselves vs. renting, since I've had them so long).

It is NOT a serious issue once your skates have broken in. The first few weeks of skating in my SPTeris, I couldn't bend much at all. Now I can bend very low in them with no problem. That's why it's important to get skates that aren't too advanced for you, since the more advanced skates are made for people who train multiple hours a day every day doing multirotational jumps. They're tougher since they have to be. If you put a beginning skater in a triple-jump boot, it'll be months and months and months of break-in time, plus lots of frustration because the ankle bend will be nonexistent.

But being unable to bend in your new skates for the first month is totally normal. If you're still fighting to bend your knees after a few months, you've probably got skates that are too advanced for you.

From personal experience, knee bending is usually an issue of finding the right balance point on the blade that is the most stable, not a boot issue. Plus you have to think about it all the time, LOL. It doesn't come naturally to most.

__________________
"The ice is finer when the zombie goes over it!" - said by an excited 5-year-old at the rink

"The life you've led is in fact not the totality of what is possible for you." - John Partridge of Wheaton College (and a Matrix philosopher )