Hi antman-
I remember that one of our posters (kayskate) posted this same thing on her journal - that she felt it would be easier to teach the backspin as a back camel first, because she felt that it was easier to achieve that position first. I think I'm going to give it a try!

Absolutely! The thing is, you're never actually crossing your free leg in front on any jump or on the backspin. What you're doing is keeping the left hip, leg and shoulder locked into place and then turning your right hip in so that you face the left leg, which now --ta daa!--is magically in front of you. The more you keep turning the right hip while leaving the left leg in the same place, the more the left leg will end up crossed in front of the right. But when I say "in the same place" I mean physically in the same place, like your left foot is an anchor and only the rest of your body is moving. If you keep the left leg in the same place *in relation to the right hip* then it will stay open and the left leg will stay extended behind you as you turn the right hip in. That's the entrance for the reverse camel.
On the loop takeoff edge, you want to do the same thing, i.e., keeping the left hip closed and turning the right side in so you face the left foot. Try it from a LFO 3-turn so that you exit on a LBI edge. Put the right foot down onto a RBO edge and bend deeply, keeping the left foot resting gently on the ice with the heel of the left foot lined up right in front of the toe of the takeoff foot. Make sure it trails on the ice in that position as you travel backward and CCW, not lifting it until you actually take off. You'll also need to keep the right arm/shoulder waay back and make sure your left arm crosses slightly in front of you, lined up right over the left leg. In other words, when your left arm is extended in front of you on the takeoff edge, your left hand should be in front of the middle of your chest, not in front of the left shoulder. If you can do this on the loop takeoff, that should give your body the position it needs to have on the backspin.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Suddenly all the relationships between loops and back spins become clear. Quite strange how in my day job I can cope with making relationships between randomly unconnected items and suddenly engineer something, but when it comes to skating I have everything in nice little boxes and they can't be taken out of them. I have to mentally call things different things even if just the setup is different!
Anyway, back to back spins. I get the analogy with the loop. I have the feeling that my loop is probably in the right position if not quite as tight as some people might like, and if I can transcribe that feeling into the backspin then things might become easier. But playing around with the backspin over the last couple of days and being aware of where my hips are has definitely helped. No major break through (but I'm not expecting one) but there's a distinct change as it's helping to keep the weight over the skating foot and not over the free side.

Update: I used the pivot-catch up in place with one of my private students yesterday. (She was taught the backspin by someone else and spins really aren't her strong suit.)

My student nailed several perfectly-centered backspins with the legs/arms in the right position using that start. The "catch up with your hips snap" helped the most because she had to use her upper body and could really feel the snap properly, whereas the normal pivot start left her tight and unbalanced.

That FI edge/3t entry is the trickiest part. After doing a few of these, then using the corkscrew FI edge, she managed three or four correct backspins with a good entry and coordinated upper- and lower-body positions.

The rush to do the 3turn is definitely the biggest problem, but much better than before I started coaching her. Progress is being made. I hope she'll be able to move up to Freeskate 4 next session.

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Hi fsk8r

With regards to your cross toe spin, try imaging there is a circle in the area you spin. Do a strong outside 3 turn on your right leg before you spin. Then cross your right foot.

It then takes me at least 2 years to master my cross toe spin properly, and I still cannot cross my right leg all the way down.

So don't give up, just keep on practising.

londonicechamp

Hi ant

You are not the only one. I also find that out recently. I can do a back upright spin of 3 to 4 revolutions, whilst cannot do more than 1 revolution of a back spin at the moment.

londonicechamp