But...if it's not done correctly, it's not a sit spin. If it's not parallel to the ice it's not a sit spin, it's a squat spin. So people who are not doing a true sit (and most of the time that includes me) - they should expect the bar to be lowered for them? They can always join ISI for that and be pleased as punch. I passed FS4 with a squat spin in ISI. I wish I hadn't passed, frankly, because I wasn't doing a sit spin. Why should the bar be lowered for US Figure Skating?

We're not judged against elite skaters, we're judged against the rules. Only if we are at the elite skill level ourselves are we judged against elite skaters (does Adult Gold equal that? I wouldn't think so - I would think an adult who passed both senior moves and senior FS would be in the category of being judged against an elite skater).

I will never for the life of me understand why people think adults should be judged differently than kids unless we're talking triple jumps. It's not like we are all in one big level and pre-bronze skaters are judged against gold skaters. Then I could see it. We are split into testing levels that have certain standards. I don't know about you guys, but when the bar is set low (as it was in ISI) I skate much worse. It's like someone putting the idea in your head from the outset that you can't do something. Then you think you can't do it. When it comes to speed, barring some illness that prevents speed, there is no reason why adults can't keep up. It's fear-based. Fear based and body positioning.

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Revised Official 2010 Goals checklist
Skate __
New boots __
(lowering the bar for 2010 as I haven't skated in a year)

I agree with Nova and Techskater, IJS is a good system, it rewards what you do well. I would rather push myself to do something well than do it wrong, the feedback from IJS is very valuable. I was not aware, and others might not have been aware of those modifications to IJS, thanks for that info Nova.

With regards to looking like a Jr or Sr level skater, I push myself everyday, I work hard and in the end...it is what it is. If I have tried my best I am generally not disappointed. Skating perfection is difficult to achieve, why else would we pick this sport.

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Who me? Couldn't be....
http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r

Regarding the IJS, I don't have a problem so much with how it is used to compare elites vrs adults, I think the residual problems are are within the IJS itself, for example, love pairs illustration of jumps [splat-fest] still receiving at least some credit vrs lifts being totally non-existant if the lift has only a slight imperfection. That problem occaisionally extends itself into the elite ranks as well.

Back to the original topic. Those who remarked about the quickness of step are right on the mark. Some people have better 'quick twitch' muscle movement and others have better slow twitch. Bicyclist for example can utilize slow twitch for long steady output and basket ball players need quick twitch for that instantaneous pop that sends them into a jump. Skaters mostly need quick twitch dynamic.

If the push stroke has that nice crisp pop to it, without just skimming over the ice as some pointed out, then that leaves a split second or two longer to also show the resulting extention. This is what makes the unique dancer look to stroking that so few free skaters work on as an aestetic.

Off ice plyometrics [sp?] will help to improve fast twitch dynamic.

On a very practical note. Get on the same ice as skaters that you aspire to match speed with and if you can keep up, you are going 'fast', but as pointed out, 'fast' is not such a simple thing.

Okay, back to the topic. Phoenix is going fast enough, but it's this kind of crisp cadence that might be missing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NsrU...eature=related

ITA. And, sorry for staying off of the original topic, but on the sitspin, the skating thigh does NOT need to be parallel to the ice for the position to count. According to the updated rules, the bottom of your butt just can't be higher than the top of your knee (bottom of butt level with top of knee is OK). Almost all of Sarah Meier's sitspins got credit this year, even though her skating thigh is never parallel to the ice. The forward sit position in the combination spin at 2:08 in this video is the lowest I saw her on a sitspin all season:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIu-Oen8Ehk

And since we aren't required to do a sitspin in competition (only on the Bronze FS test), it doesn't even have to be an issue. Rotations done in "intermediate positions" (like a high sitspin) still count toward the required spin rotations, and in a combination spin, you can even get credit for a difficult position--say, a twisted torso--done in an intermediate position, such as high sit position. That's what Sarah Meier does on the slightly high reverse sit position in the second half of the combination spin referenced above. She got a level 4 on this spin.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

OMG!!!! That is awesome!!

I feel your pain. Almost 15 years since I passed the Blues myself... Adult track...


I think you should work on the Paso and maybe the Quickstep - going into the higher dances will give you something fun and new to work on and also improve your skills and it will make the Killian, Starlight, etc., seem easier. You start to see the relationships between all of the dances.

It looks like you start to rein it in at the progressive which comes after the two 2-beat edges and before the choctaw - you are anticipating that choctaw I think and it makes your progressive kind of step-y and not stroked out. This is where it starts to look too "careful".

I'm sure you have done this, but I would practice the dance without the choctaw until I really felt like I was attacking those steps prior to the choctaw - this may actually set you up for the choctaw better in the long run.

I agree with what pairsman (I think) said about skating with people who do the dance the way you would like to do it - your body will start copying theirs - the little subtle things they do to get more attack on the strokes of the dance.

Good luck - I think you are making great progress - that is a hard dance especially for the waltzy-bluesy types (I myself am a Tango-type and these polka/marches are hell for me -- too fast!!! -eeek! ).

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Well to really stir up the pot, I personally I think IJS is a TERRIBLE system for all skaters and is ruining the sport. It's turned programs into a collection of moves thrown in to garnder as many points as possible. I dont' enjoy watching it as much and I think it was a stupid solution put together by a speed skater to dishonest judging- which it really didn't solve.

j

Phoenix, nice flow! Thanks for posting the video!
The one thing that came to mind for increasing the look of power and speed would be going for a deeper ankle bend and more lean on the edges so that each lobe/edge is deeper (automatically giving you more push off each edge). I think in order to do that, you need to be willing to be more daring, but it looks like you've got the control to handle it!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

I think that, at the higher levels, you may well have a point. But I do notice a significant improvement in quality at our sort of level - these days it is now blatantly obvious at adult competitions in this country (still marked under the "relative" system) whose programme has been choreographed with the aim of getting, or improving, an IJS score abroad, and whose hasn't.

So it's been good for the sport in one way, and less good in another! And as it's our level it's been good for.... I'm all for it!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I haven't notice any improvement at the lower level - other than skaters don't even attempt jumps that they tend to cheat. I think it's been bad for the quality of spins - they are so busy trying to get into a ridiculis position or change edge that nobody can do a sustained fast, well centered scratch spin - spins could have been improved under the old system if they just would have REWARDED spins rather than just jumps. Same thing with spirals --there is more emphasis on flexibility than edge - I just don't see turning skating into gymnastics an improvement.

j

Are the entry-level competitions judged under the IJS in the USA? I thought they were still relative, as they are here. In France, however, everything is IJS, and it does make a difference, even at Pre-Bronze.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

They are do IJS as low as juvenile at some comps here but even at lower levels they put programs together as though they were being judge IJS and I think judges are starting to think in terms of IJS even if it's the 6.0 system.

I also think IJS is going to be a financial disaster for smaller clubs trying to put on competitions.

j

This conversation is not new. I sat through GC when this was a topic a few years back and I voted for IJS even though my regional group voted against it.

Skaters either skate and do things correctly or get penalized, you get feedback and you can compare scores and grow your skating score upward. This works for adults and children, elite and non-elite. Change is a difficult thing and there is always resistance to change. The ISU is going to keep IJS and therefore the US will keep it so its skaters will be scored under the same system.

It also works with a caller and and walkie talkies, sans the computers, that makes more work for the accountants but does cut some expenses of using IJS.

I like the system and most of the judges in my area are used to it, and they do tend to think more in IJS terms that 6.0.

Ms. Redboots, in the US we don't use IJS for events lower than gold. Few competitions offer IJS for adult skaters but you can find some. I will be very interested to see the artistic programs judged with just PCS scores at O'dorf.

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Who me? Couldn't be....
http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r

I believe this all goes back to how good your fundamentals are in skating. IF you develop good fundamentals, it should NOT be a problem to get good IJS. If you don't want to do the tedious task of learning good fundamentals and just "want to get by" then you're in for trouble

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

(never mind)

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

When I test and judge in ISI, I follow the rulebook: your hip is not to be any higher than your knee for a passing sit spin. I fail squat spins regularly. I also fail skaters who do camel-squat spins in FS5. Recreational or not, you still have to be low in a sit spin.

On topic -- I skated as a kid and decided to take some moves tests starting with Intermediate at age 30 (grandfathered in based on my pervious tests). I passed it on my second try. Failed Novice on my first try and then had to put it on hold for a while. As adults, we tend to skate more carefully than most kids. We look like we're thinking too hard when we skate. We may even have speed and power but without that certain look of freedom and confidence, we look like adults.

The PSA Guide to Moves book has puts it out there really well for skating quality expectations that I believe can be carried through to all disciplines. Example: Junior Moves - "Demonstration of an accomplished performance, with sureness of presentation, a mature and consistent maintenance of speed through rhythmic movement, a clarity of body movement and a strong flow through use of knee and ankle."

While I absolutely agree that a sit spin has to be exactly the way it should be to pass a test, it just seems to me, that when you have a competition, and someone tries to do a sitspin but doesn't get the right position or do enough revolutions should get more credit than someone who doesn't try one at all and someone who gets lower and more revolutions than someone else, but still not low enough, should get more credit. To level the playing field and say NOBODY gets credit, is to discourage people from even trying. That's all I'm saying.

j

Hey, that's a great way to put it. I never thought about it like that and it makes a lot of sense.

(didn't mean to bash ISI by the way and I'm glad you judge to standard - I enjoyed it when I was in it, though I was eager to switch over).

__________________
Revised Official 2010 Goals checklist
Skate __
New boots __
(lowering the bar for 2010 as I haven't skated in a year)

Yes, there's a lot of emphasis on flexibility for anything above a level 2, but there's a lot more emphasis on edge than there was under 6.0. In the 6.0 days, even world class skaters would do spirals on a flat and hold each position for just a second. Now, unless the position is held for 3 seconds and executed on an actual edge, it won't count. Michelle Kwan's change edge spiral--which is now pretty much standard for any sequence above a level 1--got oohs and aahhs and excited comments like, "That's very difficult to do!" from Dick Button.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Thanks very much to everyone who's replied w/ comments on my dance, and the ensuing discussion re. adult skating.

We started working more on the issue in my lesson today. 45 minutes worth of progressives in a circle later, I can do somewhat snappy progressives, w/ a decent extension and hold between each step, in time w/ the Killian music. But only if I do 2 progressives slow (2 beats per step), then 2 fast (one beat per step). When I get the extra beat, I can get the feel of how fast the transition has to be, and how the extension has to feel & can then (briefly) turn it into the faster steps needed in the dance. And it is a TOTALLY different way of skating than what I would normally do!

Moderately snappy progressives in a circle in one direction is a loooooong way from doing a snappy Killian, but I have to start somewhere! He's also given me some off-ice exercises to do to hopefully help me learn to move my legs faster.

I have another lesson tomorrow (!) because I feel I need extra supervision as I'm learning this new way of skating, so he can kill me tomorrow again. More circles, oh boy!

One of the exercises we did on roller skates when working on the Paso Doble was to do XF, XB in a circle to the music, one stroke per beat (for example: LFO, RFI-XF, LFO, RFI-XB etc.). It really did get your feet going!

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That is also one of my exercises too!

Did you ever catch your toepick on it? On roller skates the hazard was locking wheels. I've tried it on ice, but not up to speed and the thought of catching a toepick on one of those XB's puts a damper on it. I have no real reason to do it now, so I haven't pushed myself.

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