About pairs having more in common with free skating; it's however you wish to slice the pear, it's half of this, half of that, you can argue it both ways. The point I was trying to make is that each discipline is unique and requires it's own set of tests. Here's a thought: Dancers take dance tests to qualify for dance competitions, Single skaters take single free test to qualify for singles events, and pair skaters take pairs test to qualify for pairs competition.

Of course, you can be good at Synchronization with out having taken any tests. However, I know how to do the Chacha Langa Conga, but I can't compete in dance, because I don't have the appropriate dance test, and the fact that I can do a lutz lift doesn't get me in the dance competition, either...can you follow my logic here? Okay, I'm not coming back to this site...I've had it

Thank you for saying this. B. and I have to compete gold pairs because of my test level. However, in pairs, I'm more like a silver than a gold -- because the elements are so very different than they are for solo.

I don't know of any solutions to this issue, but it is an interesting thing to point out.

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Thank you, Skater1964

The solution is so simple and obvious: have the appropriate pairs test qualify you for the appropriate pairs competition. In other words, taking the Bronze Pairs test with the "well-balanced" bronze pairs elements qualifies your team to compete in Bronze. Takiing the Silver Pairs test with the "well-balanced" silver pairs elements qualifies you to compete in Silver Pairs...so, on, and so forth...

It is this way in Singles and Dance; very neat, very logical. It is only when it comes to Adult Pairs that they are unable to straighten this mess out for some reason.

What I said above would be true all the way up through Adult Gold Pairs. Believe it, or not, there is a more serious problem in the system when you try to test into Master Pairs. What you have to do is slide over to the standard track and take the Intermediate Pairs test, which has the same passing average as the Adult Gold Pairs test, and is easier interms of elements. For instance, the Intermediate Pairs test does not require a Death Sprial, but the Adult Gold Pairs test does. There are a few other similar problems between the Adult Gold Pair test and the Standard Intermediate Pairs test that makes the Adult Gold Pair a harder test. However, becoming Master Pairs is "suppossed" to be more difficult than the Gold Pairs--go, figure!

Aaaaaargggghhhh!!! You made me come back to the site!

By the way: One-Stop-Shopping for all of the Adult Pairs for all of the new guidelines just approved by the GC are now up in the "News" section of: www.adultpairskating.com

But if pairs tests were required to compete in adult pairs, I can guarantee that the number of pairs would drop immediately and precipitously. Again, for those of us (I'm pretty sure the majority) who compete in both pairs AND singles, there just isn't enough ice time to go through all of the necessary tests.

When NoVa and I started skating pairs, I already had my silver FS test, and he hadn't passed his yet, but had already been skating up to that level. We started pairs lessons in January 2004. We knew that we wanted to go to AN in 2005, and to qualify for that NoVa passed his silver MIF and FS tests, and as it happened I also passed my gold MIF test that year. No, we didn't take any pairs tests at all. But that season we competed five times in silver pairs and placed first five times. Should we both have had to test bronze and silver pairs also? To what benefit? To make us more qualified to compete in silver pairs?

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Re: Qualifying tests for Pairs

There seems to be a lot of hesitation about testing. Pair skating IS totally unique. Lifts (beyond dance lifts), death spirals and throws are all unique to pairs. Carrying a partner down ice over your head at a high rate of speed, safely, can never be approved or verified in a freestyle test.

Pair testing is all about safety. For some reason, adult pairs is the only discipline in the whole managerie of skating disciplines that currently allows virtually any test to qualify.

Standard track pairs is sensible. You must take a pairs test to compete pairs. End of story!!!!

Anyone who loves pairs and takes it seriously should not hesitate to bite the bullet and take the tests. The tests will make you better and safer pair skaters. Do you want to incorporate dramatic pair elements into your program? Then why would you opt out of testing that would prove a steady progression of those skills? Each partner owes it to the other for the sake of safety.

Are the standard track kids avoiding tests? Are judges or the USFSA interested in downgrading entrance requirements for standard track pairs? Why should adult pairs be the 'spoiled stepchild' that's allowed to get out of anything rigorous?

I know its not really about $, given what we all pay a year to do this. Given that most test preparation would fit into the matrix of training already in progress... average test fee...$75???..... assurance that you have really proved yourself in a set of otherwise dangerous skills...priceless.

One other thing

Why did we all put ourselves through years of headaches and frustration for freestyle testing and more recently MIF? Because we really wanted to compete and we really wanted to prove to ourselves we could do it.

I don't buy into the idea that pair participants will drop like flies if they have test pairs. Pair people are extremely motivated. They are not in it on a whim, ready to drop off at the mere suggestion that they have to test.

My guess is that a few would drop out, some would be delayed by a year or so in there overall goals while they did some catch up, but eventually, the numbers would actually rise in proportion to over all proficiency. Quite possibly, it would be the new entrants leading the way and the veterans playing catch up.

It's not the $$$, it's the TIME. And finding uncrowded-enough sessions which ALLOW pairs. And fitting them into the schedules of two working adults who ALSO skate singles. If we could have just taken the silver pairs test that would have been one thing, but we would have had to learn and practice a shorter program STRICTLY for the bronze test, THEN learn another program for the silver test, which we could have used to compete with. We started competing about seven months after starting pairs lessons as it was, and both neglected our singles skating in order to progress as fast as we did; if we'd had to go through the additional hurdles, we might not have ventured into competing in pairs at all, and I don't think we're alone in that.

And frankly, would taking two pairs tests have made us a more successful team in the 2004-2005 season?

As to why the USFSA is allowing multiple routes of entrance into adult pairs, there's an easy answer. To INCREASE the numbers. To INCREASE participation, not LIMIT it.

Most of us who compete in pairs take it seriously, but not seriously ENOUGH to give up our singles skating. For many reasons, but a big one is that partnerships don't always last forever, and pairs partners don't grow on trees. Look at the gold teams from 2005 nationals: the first and second place teams aren't skating together any more. Of those four people, all of whom were successful pairs skaters, ONE of them has formed another partnership. Team breakups happen for many many reasons, most of which have nothing to do with the skating. Jobs and available time change, family situations change, goals and aspirations change, injuries happen... and if you're part of a team in that situation and you've given up singles you're out of luck.

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Loop Loop
OK, I can sympathize with your personal perspective, but if I take it to it's logical conclusion, why do we bother to test freestyle? Why shouldn't standard track pairs just ditch their tests? Why do adults bother to test anything at all? We're all out of money and time. Why not just have one big no test free for all? What motivates us to compete in the first place? Couldn't we just stay home, learn whatever pairs (or singles) skills we want, do a show now and then and be perfectly fulfilled? No testing required.....

Tell me why, exactly, are we different then standard track when it comes to competing?

Sorry, Lee, but I disagree with many of your statements. Most ADULT skaters (yes, we are ADULT skaters, not kiddie, STANDARD track skaters; if I wanted to be a STANDARD track skater, I would take the STANDARD test). Most ADULT pair skaters that I know have formed a partnership on an impromptu or ad hoc basis. That is, they were well-established enough in singles skating to just give the pairs skating thing a go. And you know what? A lot of these teams have done just fine in adult pairs. Claiming that adults should take the pairs test to make it a more logical, sensical competitive environment is one thing (compete in the events for which you have tested), but claiming that one cannot be a good pair skater because he/she has not taken the pair test is, well, ridiculous.

If you think that the number of pair teams would NOT drop off if the only way to compete was to pass the pairs test, then I think you are seriosuly kidding yourself. As Loops correctly pointed out, the multiple-entry point for adult pairs was not an oversight, loophole, or accident. It was by specific design to encourage as many people as possible to enter this discipline.

Thru silver pairs, there really is nothing that is dangerous since overhead lifts are not allowed. And even in gold pairs, overhead lifts are an option, not a requirement.

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More issues....

When it comes to testing pairs Loop Loop, are adult pairs different then adult competitive dance? They have to test out the wazoo! To get to gold level doesn't that entail 10-12-14 separate dance tests? (Maybe a dancer could help me here) That's on top of MIF. There's absolutely no cross over or slack in their competitive requirements! They have the very same issues with adult partnerships, time and money (plus 3 or 4 separate outfits for Champiopnship Dance). As far as numbers are concerned, half the rinks we skate at, you can't hardly step on the ice without getting run over by adult dancers, many of them competitive. So it doesn't seem to slow them down!

Nova

Just to clarify one thing, I didn't say you couldn't be a good skater (pair or otherwise) without testing.

But no one seems to be clamoring to eliminate MIF, freestyle or dance tests. So as I pointed out earlier, adult pairs is being treated like the spoiled step child that needs special help.

Whatever is good for all the other disciplines can only have a positive effect on adult pairs.

I don't know the exact details of dance testing, but I do know that *adult* dancers ARE NOT required to test MIF. In standard track, competitive dance teams must pass the MIF in order to compete in qualifying competitions but otherwise MIF is not required for dance testing. And I believe that someone taking up competitive dance at a high level (on the standard track) is allowed to skip some of the free dance tests. I remember reading that when Tiffany Stiegler switched from pairs to dance she had to pass all of the compulsory dances but was able to take the senior free dance test without having to test all of the other free dance levels.

Perhaps allowing the same type of crossover for adult pairs would be a fair compromise? Grandfather a skater to their MIF/FS level, and let them test pairs AT THE LEVEL in which they plan to compete.

Down here in DC I only know of a couple of adult dance teams, so we're not exactly overrun.

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We want it both ways is the problem. Like I said before, the changing test requirements and rules were put into place because people were accusing so and so of sand bagging and saying that adult skating isn't taken seriously. Everyone thinks it's fine to limit gold free to certain doubles and people aren't saying that they should do away with the other tests so *logically* modeling pairs after the rest of the disciplines makes sense. Do we LIKE it? No. Do we have time for it? Well, I had to pass my gold moves and my free style suffered. Which is why I took my gold moves. I think they could grandfather in all the present pairs competitors that exist and then move ahead. All the arguments make sense but I still got stuck in a limited gold free. You may not like it but rules are rules and if they do it for one, why can't they do it for all.
My tomato opportunity
Deb

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January: Sure I'll compete, quick, send the application
April: I signed up to do WHAT??

First, and most important...Kisses, Carygram

Factoid: About there not being enough "time" to test as an adult skater: Pairsman2 runs his own contracting business, which is full time, and I was working full-time in museums up until this past September, at which time I embarked upon building my own business in real estate. The career change has been more time consuming then actually working a full-time 9-5. Let me highlight this by underscoring that fact that we are both totally broke at this point. Nevertheless, during the past 3 years Pairsman2 and I have managed to take over 15 tests between us in order to climb the ranks the way the USFSA laid it out. We started skating pairs at the bronze level together and took all of the required MIF that proceeded the Free and Pairs tests. We did this with only two pairs practices together a week--so, please don't tell me that you don't have the time. IT CAN BE DONE IF YOU WANT TO DO IT. Moreover, given this challenge, we managed to keep our pairs skating alive enough to take a Silver Medal in the Gold Pairs event in Texas. Quite frankly, the MOVES were a tremendous help towards improving our pair skating.

Next, NO ONE SAID THAT PASSING ANY TEST MAKES YOU A BETTER SKATER. IT IS ALL OF THE "TIME" THAT YOU PUT INTO PRACTICING AS YOU WORK UP TO THE TEST THAT MAKES YOU IMPROVE.

Finally, if the tests don't mean anything with regard to qualifying for the competitions, then just bag the entire system, make everyone happy and just send everyone gold medals in the mail, since it is all meaningless anyway. Semiotics 101: MEANING IS WHERE EVERY YOU ASSIGN IT!

Once again, you've missed the mark. No once claimed that tests were meaningless. Those who didn't take the pairs test qualified to compete via other routes.

Your post is dangerously close to stating that medals won by pairs skaters who haven't tested are worthless. What a shame.

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All of the competing pairs HAVE passed tests which DO qualify them for the competitions. The RULES are that either singles or pairs tests are acceptable for that purpose, and under the rules in place every team which competes has EARNED their medals.

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Nobody is saying that there isn't time in general to test as an adult skater. Those of us who compete in pairs with FS tests have taken and passed tests. Over the years I've skated I've passed 5 MIF tests (standard track pre-pre through juvenile and adult gold) and 5 FS tests (adult pre-bronze through silver and standard track pre-pre and preliminary). Since I started skating pairs, the only test I've taken is gold MIF, because I've chosen to allocate my ice time in other ways.

Yes, we could have dedicated time to learning and practicing programs for pairs tests, which were not necessary for us under the rules. Instead we chose to spend that time working on our pairs *skills* and competitive programs. That was our choice, just as working your way up through the pairs tests rather than via singles was your choice, and both choices are valid and acceptable. Since you don't compete in singles, focusing on the pairs tests was the right option for you. Since we DO compete in singles, we chose the right option for us.

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This is exactly what has happened in the UK, where pairs is the only discipline which requires tests to have been passed to compete even at the lowest level. Result - we had precisely one adult pair in the British Championships last year, and none at any other competition.

Not that we have all that many elite pairs, either - Kemp & King are the only Senior/international pair we have had for some years.

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Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

They were downgraded by 0.8 at Oberstdorf last year, FWIW.

With pair only test requirements, pair teams would definitely drop in numbers, and also it would be a great discouragement to new pair teams forming. The way it stands skaters can hook up and give it a try for a season or so. There's too much of an investment in training pairs as it it, let alone going for another test, if you already have a fs level. There's simply not enough time. This is one of the points we discussed several years ago when we were working on the adult pairs structure. Comparing it to dance is really not valid, as fs to dance does not equal a transition of fs to pairs. Pairs is a special animal, but a good fs skater can be well trained in pairs, it's not magic, just training and there's no need for another test. My former partner is a perfect example. There's no reason for him to have to go back and retest pairs. He's shown that in events. It's getting to be way too much. I was and am still against mandatory moves tests. I predicted the numbers, and more inportant the interest would drop as the frustration levels and time requirements rose, and here we have it. I remember meetings at AN where the concern was how to keep the numbers at AN down and under control. Well, I think they found a way! Just add another rule change. I'm also glad I competed in fs when there were fewer such rules. Now the programs are very cookie cutter.

PS. I'm in an airport on the way to France, and yes, I did carry on my skates!

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Just wanted to thank you for pointing that out. Actually, to finish your gold dances you must pass 23 tests.
My club currently charges $40 per test for pre-gold/gold (8 tests total there), plus you pay your partner/coach for taking you through. That varies, but by the higher levels you're generally paying at least $30-40 per dance. So $80 per dance times 8 dances--- $640.00 in testing for the last 2 levels *IF* you pass everything on the first try, which is unlikely. Damn, wish I hadn't figured all that out!

I have a student I'm trying to get qualified to compete in bronze dance at next year's AN. To do that, he needs to pass 7 tests (prelim, pre-bronze, + 1 bronze), and that's without any moves requirement.

And while adult dancers aren't required to take MIF to compete, many of us do it anyway.

Nova,

Don't go twisting my words...that's not what I said, meant, or even implied. I was talking about a much bigger picture here...sorry, darling, but I think you missed the mark.

Okay, I have to say this: after reading this entire thread, I have way more respect for Dancers than I ever did. Hey, Pairsman2 let's go Dancin where the competition is real! LOL!!!

To all the Dancers out there who have to take 23 Dance tests to qualify to for Championship Dance, this is all I have to say

Actually, it's possible to compete in Championship Dance with only 13 dance tests passed (one silver), provided that the partner has at least 16 dances passed (one pre-gold). That's the minimum requirement to compete in Pre-Gold, and all Pre-Gold couples can enter Championship dance.

Edit: They made the minimum Championship Dance requirements match the Pre-Gold minimum on purpose, so that both Pre-Gold and Gold dance couples can enter Championship.

Still, 29 tests completed within one team is very admirable. I really had no idea that it was that many, and I thought 15 between my pairs partner and myself was a lot of testing--my hat goes off to you!

I agree that, in theory, it makes sense that the Pairs test determine your pairs competitive level. But I also agree that, in practice, this could lower participation, which I don't think anybody wants. The opposite happened with my first partner as we were actually shut out of the 2004 AN pairs event because of my singles test level. We had the bronze pairs test, but that didn't do us any good because I needed to be silver free. How crazy is that?

I think lovepairs point is a good one -- you cannot determine the ability of a team to do pairs elements by their level in singles. Yes, many of them will pull it together and put very nice pairs programs out there. But just as many will struggle at their pairs competitive level that they are forced into due to their singles status. I have seen some gold competitions where it was clear that some teams were only in that level because one of the skaters was gold free, but they would have been so much better off in silver pairs based on what they could do pairs wise. And let them improve in silver pairs for a while then step up when they have the elements. But I concede that just as many teams, like Nova and Loops, will naturally fit into the same pairs level that they do in singles. I think that silver doesn't quite make the point that gold does. You can take 2 solid gold singles skaters with axels and awesome combo spins, but they may never have a death spiral, decent lifts or throws. But there they are in gold pairs, because they can't step down for pairs, struggling through.

For my own situation I am grateful that I don't have to take any more tests because I barely have time to skate as it is. I only qualify for gold pairs based on my partner's gold free level. Between the two of us, I have the bronze pairs test and she has no pairs tests. Conceptually I do think we should test silver and gold pairs, even though we are doing gold-level stuff and probably belong in gold already. But we're another exception ... I can just as easy see it going the other way, and us being more suitable for silver, but not having that as an option. Trust me, silver is where I wanted to be 5 months ago and was kinda pissed that I *had* to do gold.

Tim

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