I do call/speak with the other coach when a student wants to change to me, however I'm unusual in that respect. It's only happened to me after the summer, and I was very insulted and hurt by one situation this year. You're an adult with a DD who skates, you're at the d**n session, just walk over and say "() wants to try everything, so this year she wants to take from a different coach." That's all. Instead, this spineless woman sent her DD to ask the desired new coach. The kid asked her right in front of me! I'm over it now, especially since the kid's on her third coach of the season. She's just fickle, I guess.

I felt very bad for the coach in yesterday's situation. S/he was so obviously caught off-guard and the fact that the new coach was LITERALLY new (to the rink) was upsetting. I thought s/he'd go ballistic, but s/he was very professional.

I can't find the specific PSA document that states what Nova's mentioned, but the PSA did lay down some "changeover" guidelines. I thought the focus was more on having the skater/parents tell the old coach and ensuring that all bills have been paid in full.

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Sk8pdx: Sounds like you will really benefit from that class! interesting about the back spin as I am supposed to be learning this too. I will try again today. I thought it just felt foreign because it was on the right foot. Had not thought about concentrating the outside edge. Hope that helps me too as I can only get a revolution if I start on the left leg and then switch to the right...giggle. I keep doing that to just get a feel or finding the center on the right...sort of looks like a spinning march! (well that is...when it works!)

Rusty: Glad things worked out for you. It sounds like you were profoundly impacted by her style in addressing you.

Flying: Skated at a different rink yesterday that is so much less crowded. I think I am going to take intermediate freestyle at both my rink and this one. Enrollment at my rink comes with free unlimited public...but at the other comes with free after your class plus an additional pass to their very non crowded public sessions per week. It would also afford me opportunity to work with two coaches as the elements are all dictated by ISI so will be the same.

Practiced my waltz eight again and it is feeling better. Trying to do a cleaner spin entry from backward cross overs and doing salchow out of backward cross overs. Also spending each session with extra edges time to keep them clean for MIF pre bronze.

Falling: Still have a pulled muscle....It is not until you are sore that you are so aware of how many simple activities require certain muscles! Ouch! Toe loop from lunge is still a hit or miss thing!

Will skate at my crowded rink today...wonder what I will be able to get done!

Is this including the time spent playing on your back-garden rink, or exclusive of it?

Jazzpants, hope you feel better soon.

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Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Very perceptive of you. My former coach and I are VERY close friends and of very much the same personality. If it had been anyone else, I would have chuckled and skated away.

Exclusive. The outdoor rink is SO dependent on the weather. It doesn't take much of a breeze to make it uncomfortable when it is -28C (like this morning). Hopefully I will have skateable ice here within the week but this past week we have had snow every day or every other day and I can't flood when its snowing. It is calm and clear this morning so the rink is flooding now

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Dianne
(A.O.S.S.? Got it BAD! )

Comments re coaching change

Thanks for comments. I know you have to tell your old coach if you intend to switch and that a new coach shouldn't take on a student they know has lessons from someone else.

In my case, I stopped dance lessons altogether for about 3 months then I restarted with another teacher. I told my old coach I was stopping dance for good so he knew I wasn't going back to him. And at the time I did intend to stop dance but then I missed it and went back to dance but with another teacher. It just wasn't working with the first teacher and thats why I stopped in the first place

Out of courtesy I did tell him I was having lessons from someone else but he went MENTAL. I always wondered if I could have handled it better....

Falling: Woke up feeling dizzy yesterday and today so I had to take more decongestant and antihistimine....but not the antivert-that stuff is evil and I can't take it anymore!!! The other stuff I like to take isn't available except behind the pharmacy counter and darn near impossible to get (the "old" sudafed sinus). So, scratch spins will be traveling again.....

Ooops! forgot my competition application at home...so I took one that was posted on the board (last one up...it's due today so too bad!).

Flying: Today was my choice-told my coach that I've been in a funk-since it's the holidays...possibly our last one together!!! My daughter will be who-knows-where in the Navy next year and I've been sad (and crying...early start on the whole empty nest thing, even though the boy is still home) and the show is still in shambles and disarray....I picked...

THE CAMEL!!!!!!

This surprised her, I haven't worked on it since April...so from a "T" was how we started and it actually wasn't bad! Got up to 1.5 revs and in good position! She gave me some positive feedback and positive reinforcement!!! Now I have something new to work on.

Then she suggested the sit spin, which actually wasn't too bad (for once)! She was happy with some of the ones I did....suggested trailing the non-skating leg longer and keep on the ball of the skating foot more...but she said they were better than the ones done in April.

Next up: the loop! I haven't done these for her in a while (September), although I do hit them here and there. She did suggest I do the "trailing foot off the ice" exercise; but she did say I was getting good height...she wasn't too concerned about the left foot landings...or the left foot touching down...she said they were MUCH better and I was really getting on that edge!!!

I do feel better! Whether or not I go back to adult skate this pm is another story...I feel like a popsicle...It's been a battle to gain back the 4 pounds I've lost this past week (was sick with an upper respiratory thing and lost 2 from not eating; then was sick with the migraine and lost 2 more). Never thought that this would be a problem but it is beginning to be...at what point do I start to worry??? I would love to eat tons of cheese and ice cream, but I'm also lactose intolerant (darn!!!)

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I'm not sure if this will get read, since this is last weeks thread, but I wanted to question the "obviously" in this statement. At any point are parents told of this expectation? If I had not been so internet savy, as well as have the time and drive to find out absolutely everything about ice skating, not only would I have never heard of PSA, I would never know its a bad idea to take classes from more than one coach at a time.

I think it makes much more sense that it's the coaches responsibility to check- because they are informed of this responsibility, by PSA. When I approached the man who will be my coach starting in January the first thing he asked me was if I was working with anyone else. I assume if I had said yes, he would tell me I need to inform them I was cuttting off the relationship.

But where do parents find out that "obviously" it is their responsibility that they tell a coach they are going with someone else.

(Other than courtesy, but we should all know that often sports parents with little princesses lack that.)


(Sorry to pick so much on your choice of wording, I don't mean it against you, and now that I am informed of the skating world, it is quite obvious, but to someone who doesn't spend all days on the forums, is it?)

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Be glad you can take something for it. I am ALLERGIC to milk and NOTHING but a nearby clean bathroom is gonna help with that!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

OOOOOOH, you are EVIL!!!!!

To tell you the truth - 2nd dd just began privates too, so I CANT AFFORD TO SKATE!!!! But who can, right?

I can skate and even do jumps in my dreams, is that good enough?

SpaMama

NO!!!!!

(Just helping out DallasSkater there...)

But seriously, give it a try!!! Heck, if this big can pass her Bronze FS test in a few years, you certainly could get yourself on ice!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

No, it's not good enough. You know you wanna do it in real life.
There must be a way ...

I just set up semi-privates for the twins. My DH remarked on how much "skating money" I had in the bank account from teaching this year. (It's taken my three years to get back in the black after losing all my students and groups with family crises.)

I laughed and told him what's coming down the pike in expenses: new Klingbeils for me, new boots-and-blades for the twins, new blades for the oldest DD, plus weekly private lessons for the twins. I'm trying to get the teenager to go back into groups at the rink where "nobody knows her name."

This is last week's thread, so I'm not going to post any real skating notes. LOL

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Don't forget that Kateskate is not in the USA, but in the UK where all coaches are professionals, and normally spell out their expectations to their pupils, whether adult or child, before taking them on. Many of them have written down this type of information on a handout they give their pupils, or their pupils' parents, the first session.

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Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Right, and that is wonderful that parents are given expectations of how to be a skate parent.

Although I think kateskate is who started the discussion, the example I quoted was from Isk8NYC and I believe happened at a rink in New York.

So here's another question- none of the coaches I have worked with (although I have only done "here and there" lessons- usually setting up a private to be evaluated for a level in basic skills, - but working with coaches at 3 different rinks in 2 states) have given me any sort of guidelines. Is this the norm at all in the US to inform students that they are obligated to let a coach know when they plan to take on another coach? Or do you just learn through internet boards, if you happen to read them, or trial and error when a coach gets really upset?

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I can't remember as I've ever seen anything in writing from any of my coaches over the years.

Normally for me it hasn't been a problem. In fact, I just changed coaches because one of my coaches moved out of town. When I talked to my new secondary coach, he specifically asked "does your other coach know about this and agree with it" and "does your old coach know". I talked to other coach, who didn't (and she also talked to secondary coach about things).

Oh yes, and he also specifically asked about injuries... if I had any injuries that he should know about in advance.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

First, let me clarify that by "obviously," I meant the parents, not the child, should be the person with which the coaches should discuss issues.

I tell my students' parents up front that I expect the courtesy of a call if they decide to change coaches, just as I ask them to call if they're going to skip a lesson and that they have to pay for ice time. Still, I have no shows and some of them "forget" to pay for their freestyle/public sessions, so that doesn't work. Some coaches give out little "private lesson" brochures, but it's not done in the rinks I coach in now.

Before the popularity of the internet, parents would talk to the head pro/skating director, the coaches, and other parents. They would see other skaters changing coaches and realize what worked well and what didn't. As an adult skater, I saw a lot of arguments and complaining about "poaching" and "stealing" when skaters started lessons with another coach without telling their former pro. I also saw a lot of transitions where the parents set the tone and the skater/coaches followed and there were no hard feelings. With today's "team coaching" approach, this happens less often because skaters transition less obviously.

Today, with the internet, there are a multitude of sources that say the parents tell the old pro first. If you're really unsure of how to do it, talk to the head pro/skating director and ask for their guidance.

I haven't found the PSA "requirement" in writing that says the new pro MUST be the one to inform the old pro. (That was suggested in a PSA article, but it may not have been endorsed.) However, the PSA does state that the new pro is supposed to find out if 1) the skater is a current student of another coach; 2) the old pro is informed; and 3) all outstanding bills are paid. Some pros, rather than risk a confrontation, will simply ask the parent/skater and let it go at that. The PSA rules do say that coaches may not solicit, which includes commenting to parents/skating about the current coach, giving free tips or any lessons to other coaches' students.

Having witnessed blowups, I don't EVER want to be part of them, so I'm over-the-top in managing these. I inform the parent/skater that I will talk to the old pro on (day), but I would like them to discuss it with that person first. I also inform the Skating Director/Head Pro. I've been given the same courtesy in return.

I DO believe it's a courtesy issue. Rarely do you begin lessons with a new coach without discussing it with them, why wouldn't you have the courage and consideration to discuss it with them on the way out? This is a pseudo-employee, would you like to be "fired" in this way?

I'm betting your new coach has a good relationship with your old coach and therefore didn't ask you to inform him/her. We have a few low-level coaches who "feed" their students up to the higher-level coaches when the skaters' ready and it's really no big deal for them to switch among themselves. Same goes for switching coaches within the "Team."

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That makes more sense than how I read it. I thought you meant it should have been obvious to the parent that they needed to tell the coach, not just that they should be the one to tell.

My issue isn't that I'm unsure of how do this, or that I don't want to. I most definetly will let my coach know in advance if I ever plan to change coaches.- just that I don't think the expectation that you have to tell your coach before you look for a new coach that you are thinking of doing this- is out there for people to know they have to do this- unless they are very internet savy, which many people who are internet savy assume everyone else is.

And I agree with you completely. I plan to handle any future coaching change in the manner that I've learned through this board is proper. However, I do think it's strange I have to tell my old coach I am looking for a new coach (trial lessons) before I find one. I wouldn't tell my job I am looking for a new job before I find one. I would merely give them notice of my leave.

I'm actually coming out of LTS so it's not an issue for me right now. I'm merely pointing out, if I didn't hang out here, (which I'm glad I do- because you people sure know a lot more about the skating world then what I've found at my rink- so I'm more knowledgeable for it) I would never know any of these little details. I would act only on what I assumed was courtesy- but from what I can tell, some of it might have been wrong.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

You're not the EMPLOYEE, you're the employer. Think of how many companies announce that outsourcing and layoffs are a-comin' in the hopes of having people make other arrangements. I personally despise layoffs, but a warning in advance is better than the *Suprise-you're out of a job!* approach.

You know what's really different now than when I skated in the 1980's? Clubs in the US aren't the only game in town for figure skating, and more adults are skating. As adults, we cobble together snippets of time in our schedule for practice, lessons, and comps. Our coaches are hand-picked, often without input from directors, head pros, or other skaters.

While some rinks had freestyle sessions, most had skating clubs that rented the ice and ran the sessions with rules and "propriety." Clubs had a head pro who was supposed to (but often didn't) mitigate changeovers and conflicts. It was more tight-knit, so word of mouth got around bad changeovers and such.

As an adult, I was privvy to a lot of things that skaters, and even their parents, wouldn't know about. Think about the skating parent: they brought their skater to the rink, then they'd hang out and talk. That's how they learned the ropes. It's communication and feedback that adult skaters really don't get today.

ETA:
You'd be surprised. At a coaches' meeting this year, a topic of discussion was whether group instructors should have first preference for the group students that want privates. (The answer was "NO" - the student/parents choose their private instructor.)

BTW, I wasn't offended by your post. I thought it was a great question.

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Hmmm... this makes it even stranger. While I have heard of a few companies that give advanced notice of major layoffs, my experience has been that for indivduals this isn't the case. (My boss at my last job was there before lunch (on a tuesday) and then just gone when we all got back- really quite horrible. The job before that worked the same way- although usually at the end of the day. The air force did give my husbands unit advance notice, and actually took volunteers first- which is how he got out.) As the employer- can I interview new candidates before letting the first one go? Clearly in skating, no. I'm glad I know that. But it really seems like it will be a "grass is always greener" situation, if you can't try a new coach out before getting rid of the old one. (Or at least offending him/her with the notation that you are looking)

Thanks for explaining how skating used to work. I remember some of the things you talked about- and that's really why I didn't skate as a kid. The system was complicated and the figure practice didn't fit into my mom's carpool schedule (my sister was an elite gymnast). And if you didn't do patch you couldn't take group lessons.

Really, I'm not at all arguing with the system, and I don't want it to seem that way. It just seems like it's expected that everyone knows all this.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Actually, yes, you can, it's just considered correct courtesy/ethics to let the current coach know about it. Just tell your coach that you'd like to take a few lessons w/ XX coach. They may not like it, but at least then they'll know what's going on. Since coaches work at many of the same places together, otherwise chances are your coach could walk into the rink & see you having a lesson w/ another coach--how would that make them feel? It's happened to me, & I felt really bad.

On the other hand, they may not mind at all, and they may encourage you to get info from other coaches from time to time. Sometimes it helps to hear things said a different way. My current coach has never minded if I take a lesson here or there w/ someone else, though I always let him know about it first. And he is in no danger of losing me as a student.

I have had my own students do this, and it is also helpful because then I discuss things w/ the other coach--what did they work on, specific instructions that I can then reinforce, things to take note of, etc. So that way everyone is working together for the benefit of the skater.

Sorry to hear that, jazzpants! My sister is also allergic to dairy (and beef-shame, since we used to raise our own beef). Luckily, she is an excellent cook and can adapt recipes. I just do without.

As for the other discussion about jumping around from coach to coach and expectations, when I first "hired" my current coach, she gave me a handout with her expectations of her students (child and adult). Full of common-sense things: her fees, call if you can't make the lesson, pay on time, let her know if you don't want to take lessons from her anymore, etc.

When my daughter switched coaches (mostly due to the other coach never showing up-too many other obligations) her new coach made sure that the old coach was notified before lessons began. She didn't want to get caught in any crossfire! Perfectly understandable!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I've been going through all of this during the past week, as it looks like I'm adding a backup coach to my employee roster. (Just what the budget needed--son has been working with as many as three, one of whom is my primary coach.) Everybody involved in the process seems to have made multiple calls to ensure that everybody else was in agreement , so it looks like this will be working well. With son's coaches, I added the second one (for some dance) after consultation with his primary, primary added a choreographer to the mix (temporarily) after consulting with me.

But...practically speaking, I don't recall where I picked all this protocol up from. I do not think anyone every formally briefed me on it, and it seems to me that those rinks/coaches with handouts are on the right track.

Rob

It's just hearsay/witness information. I like the UK approach of a handout, but I don't want to be mocked. I remember one coach wearing a button that said "Ask me about private lessons!" on her coaches' jacket. The higher-ups made fun of her for weeks.

Let's say I did put together a handout. What would it include?

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Seems like that should be a new thread! Some ideas- not being a coach, I don't know what exactly would be practical- and in hindsight, it appears I'm writing a newsletter, not a handout

I would say
1) Expectations of parents- get your skater there one time, pay on time (as well as your payment expectations- monthly, before each lesson, one week in advance...- I would not put the rate on there because I know many coaches who give some people price breaks per personal agreements), cancelation policy

2) Expectations for skaters- always try, focus on the lesson, do they need to have a skaters notebook at the lesson (my coach charges a quarter if we forget), do you expect them to be in a skirt/tights,

3)Make up lesson policy

4) Professional Courtesy. "If you choose to take lessons from another coach, please inform me before the lessons begin. If you are currently taking lessons from another coach, please inform them before you begin lessons with me"

5)Rink Etiquette (What the heck is a lutz corner? Don't park on a circle, right of way expectations- do those apply during public sessions?)

6) Competition policy- do you go with your students? How much do you charge? do you make tapes? ISI or USFSA?

Those are things I'd like to know from a coach before hand. My coach actually has a handout on his website that I just ran across that he gives to parents. I guess I didn't get one because I'm not a parent? I still don't know what a lutz corner is though. (Well I know WHAT it is, but not where, or even if my rink observes it- but is it just EVERY corner of the rink is only for doing lutzes? Or do only CCW skaters get corners? Seems like a huge part of the rink is reserved just for one jump though...)

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Good idea - here it is:

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=22230

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