I'm no expert and it took me forever to get the loop which doesnt' always work even now but on a quick viewing of your video it looks like one thing is that you are leaning way too far forward. Try thinking about sitting on a chair, then ensure your weight is over your right side and right shoulder over (not forward of) your right hip. Do not crouch forward to spring up - the spring comes entirely from a bent knee - your back should stay ramrod straight. If it helps then glide on a line with weight on right foot, left foot in front, back straight. Check body alignment - hips and shoulders form a box that all move together and stays vertical. Now bend right knee without moving anything else til you are in the 'sitting on a chair position' (think kitchen chair not a lounger!!! ) Hip, shoulder and foot are in vertical line , knee will be furthest forward part of right side of body - dont' let anything go forward of right knee (except left leg of course!!!!). Now with arms out to sides move hip and shoulder box to right - rotating about vertical axis - so right arm goes behind and left arm will come to front. Stop with left breast(!) over right knee. Now lean back a little more and feel the weight on right outside edge and it starts to curve.

Then as you come over more on your outside edge and are ready to spring up simply bring your right arm (which will be behind you) round and through to your chest (try leaving the left arm more or less where it is - it will naturally come round to the right position). Take care that it is coming up and in and not ending below the level it started (one of my problems). Also look with your head in the direction you are jumping (as you jump, not before) and keep as straight as possible in the air with shoulder over hip.

Not sure if it will help and I'm sure loads of people will tell you a different method but this is what works for me.

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

Looks as though I'll have my work cut out for me today! Thanks, Batikat!

I've got these tips (as well as the others) printed out, ready to roll to the rink now. I'll let you guys know how it turns out!

Provided there aren't 50 million kids today!!!!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Don't go yet! - another quick viewing with my daughter and it shows that you are dropping your left shoulder so that your right arm's shoulder is way higher than left - there's only one way that right arm goes from there and that is down and that is NOT what you want. Keep yoru shoulders level - if anything let the right hand be slightly lower than left so you can bring that hand (make a fist - it helps me) UP and through - if it goes down then so do you and you can't jump.

Stopping the picture at the moment just before you jump shows you leaning forward at almost 45 degrees with left arm dropped and left side forward of both knees. Keep back vertical, shoulders level.

Hope it helps

OOps and spot deliberate mistake above - I meant when you rotate hip and shoulder box that right arm goes behind and left arm in front of course - will edit now

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

As Batikat says, you really need to sit right back on that outside edge. Hey Batikat, wasn't that what I've been telling you these past two years?!!! The more you sit back, the better the jump will be. Another thing I noticed from the video is that you go into it quite slow. We all know speed is a double-edged sword for us adult skaters, but honestly, the faster you go into the loop the bigger and better the jump will be.

Nicki

Yes it was - and I think I've got that bit now - only took 18 months of sitting on that edge wondering how on earth one moved from there. Now I know the secret to moving from that position is knee bend and weight to outside edge. Oh and waiting for the edge to bring you round before jumping. Jumps class coach (also now moved away) used to make me set up this jump on a line across the rink facing away from the cafe, then start to curve the edge and wait until I was facing the cafe before actually leaving the ice. That took another few months to sink in!


yes yes but it's scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I find when I try to increase speed I dont tend to get so far onto outside edge (because it's scary!!!!!) and then of course I slip off the edge and can't jump. Strangely enough practising 3 jump (waltz jump for Americans), loop jump combos are helping. I think becasue the only way you can possibly make the loop work after the 3 jump is to get the weight right over on that outside edge so the centre of gravity is straight through right shoulder and hip. I do have to go slowly into the 3 jump but I concentrate on feeling the weight in the right place and it's makign me more confident on that outside edge because when you do it right - it works!!!!

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

I struggled with the loop, but now I seem to have a handle on it -

The trick for me was going into it with a LOT more speed, really bending for height, and NOT WAITING to jump. I think keeping these things in mind will help you too, in addition to minding your posture in the jump. I wouldn't say the loop is my favorite jump now, but I'm definitely over the awkwardness (I hope) of learning what my body needs to be doing

I think perhaps the 'waiting time' depends on how fast you go into the jump - the faster you go into it, then the less you will be 'waiting' as the curve brings you round much faster - there is it seems an optimim point at which to jump and you just have to find this point for the speed you are going. Not easy, and of course you have to adjust your timing when you go faster. when I was 'waiting' a long time I was doing the jump from a dead slow speed and one of my problems was jumping too early.

Now I go into it a bit faster I dont' have to wait so long and my problem now is often jumping too late!!! Just can't win!

Another thing that can help on timing is to have good rhythmic music on in the background

My coach also gave me an interesting entrance into the jump - a bit like a crossover entrance without crossovers. I do a LFO3 ending with both feet on the ground in loop takeoff position (i.e left foot on tracing line of right foot), then do a curve to left (on LBO /RBI edges) while taking right arm up and over to behind me and then curving back round onto RBO, transfer weight to right side and jump. It always works best when it's in my programme and my music is playing!

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

Very true. My loop-loop combo in my programme sort of just happens because of the beat in my music. It fits in nicely and generally I find it easier to do that jump to my music than in isolation.

Nicki

That's what my coach got me doing as well, and that always puts my weight over the right side. The only difference is, I most often approach loop from BXOs, then do the opposite curve thing.

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--renatele

I watched the video again (painfully!) and yes, you are right! OMG!! Didn't realize it looked that bad!

Today's session was OVERRUN by a zillion kids, most of the FALLING, but my daughter was able to help a bit with my posture and the sitting back part. I know it sounds weird, but I have a hard time knowing that I'm pitched forward. I don't know if it's a balance thing or postural or what.

Anyway, I ended up riding the entrance, trying to get on the outside edge, while sitting back with my upper body more upright. She said a few times I had it.

It will really need tons more work before anything happens with it. Maybe I'll try some waltz-loop jumps on saturday night (skating in the new year!)

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

The trick to the takeoff position is to have your right butt cheek directly over your right heel, but also to have your chest right over knees (with back arched and shoulders back). The correct chest position will counter-balance the sit-back over the heel and give you a great takeoff. Now when I am on my takeoff edge, I think "Butt, chest" to get me set up right.

OOps - hope my comments weren't too harsh!

I think lots of people have the same problem - it's not often we have to get in to that exact position! Have you tried practising the position off-ice in front of a full length mirror. Stand sideways on to mirror (mirror to your right), place left foot in front of and aligned with, right foot. Transfer all your weight to right foot. Now bend right knee and see how low you can go while still keeping back absolutely vertical - that gives you the feeling in your body for how straight you should be. Now, turning shoulders and hips as one unit, rotate upper body to face the mirror, keeping shoulders level, hands about waist height. You should now be in doubletoes beautifully named ( I love this description ) 'Butt, chest' position.

Another thing that may help is to think about tucking the butt under the right shoulder - it's all too easy to think we are getting on an outside edge by sticking the right butt cheek out behind which pitches you forward. Try deliberately sticking that butt cheek out (look in the mirror and see what it does (and how that feels)) and then consciously drawing it in and under and see how your back automatically straightens up and shoulders come level.

Once you have the feel for the position off-ice it should be easier to find it on-ice. Practice the whole jump off-ice too - assume the position, then bend knee further and spring up bringing right arm round and through.

Hope these things help - believe me I tried everything to get this jump and then one day it all suddenly clicked, once I got the take-off position right (but it took me years!).

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

No, sometimes it's reality that's harsh, we just choose not to see it sometimes! I knew I wasn't in the right position, but I didn't watch the video (esp. in slo-mo) closely! Anyway, I'm a big girl and can take the critiques (good and bad).
As far as the off-ice stuff-I will really give it a go!!! I'm ready for jump boot-camp at this point! It's really funny, this afternoon I was actually wondering if there was any off-ice stuff that would help...Thanks!!!

I hope that one day I will be able to show you guys a really nice loop!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

90% of standard digital cameras on the market will take video - you don't need a bulkier, more expensive camcorder. Oftentimes they have a default limit of 15 or 30 seconds set, but you can change that in the settings of the camera. I spent $150 on a cheap HP digital camera from Office Depot (I don't really recommend HP, I was just buying something cheap and compact).

Phones work too, all of the videos not named high_quality on my site are taken with my phone...but as you can see the quality is very poor compared to the digital camera. It does nicely in a pinch though - I tend to carry my phone with me all the time, and it's handy even just for seeing what you're doing wrong on a bad day. Technology can be great sometimes.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

My new cell phone only takes 15 seconds of video. Don't know if thats a limitation because I don't have a memory card for it yet or if that's just a software/hardware limitation. Quality is poor also, but it's ok in a pinch, like you said.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Probably there's a setting on it to change the limit from 15 seconds to as much as the amount of memory (whether built-in or on a card) will hold. I have a Nokia 6230 and that's how it was on mine. The setting was buried in there though...

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

Looked at the loop and edges. FO edges look steady and smooth. BIs look hunched over and insecure. IMO, they are the most difficult. How is the quality of your backward skating in general? From what I see in the loop vid, it looks tentative and maybe a little scratchy. Maybe this is just b/c you are uncomfortable w/ the loop. However, if you are uncomfortable w/ the back xovers, you may want to invest more time in them alone. You will find your loop will improve as your back xovers improve. It is hard to do a loop from weak xovers. Strong back edges and knee bend are essential for a good loop. Can you do the loop from FI3? This method is good for ppl who are still strengthening their xovers.

Kay

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Visit my figure skating journal
http://www.skatejournal.com/

Not as good as I'd like.
Yup! Very scratchy! Too much on my toepicks (still)
I need to spend more time on them-instead I don't. My private coach wants me to bring my feet closer together after I stroke-a concept I'm having a hard time with. She has been improving my posture-it was all hunched over...for some reason I was looking under my arm instead of over....pitched at the waist.....overall very crappy....
My 3-turns are very weak, esp when you add any kind of speed. This has haunted me on toe-loops.

All of these weaknesses make me glad I got a private coach this year,as I have all these issues to "fix"

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I really didn't have the courage to read through all these response pages to your video so if I repeat anything anyone has already said...I am sorry.

The problem with your loop is that you're trying to take offf from your front foot. What you are doing is gliding backwards okay..although you could afford to sit back further (think of sitting straight onto a chair....right now your torso is leaning forward), but then when it comes time to jump all the weight goes to your front foot, and you scoop sideways with that front foot and then somehow try to jump off the back. The big problem is the sideways scoop...your front foot is forward, then you bend (but you're leaning forward instead of bending DOWN) and then you glide your front foot to the side and try to jump off of it onto the back foot and then try to jump off the back foot and around. The front foot needs to stay *in front* the entire time. Actually, you're not crossing your front foot enough....it should be further in front, and the only place it should go is UP....not at all sideways.

I'm not sure it's the problem, but from the very little I could see...it seems like the girl (your daughter?) giving you advice is showing you to scoop sideways. Maybe she was showing you what you were doing and then telling you it was wrong, in which case she's right...what she is showing you is exactly what you were doing, and it's wrong. But if she's telling you that it is what you should be doing then that's not...good.

Anyway, I hope some of this helped.

PS: The easiest way I think you're going to correct your mistakes and learn to do it properly is to learn it from a 3-turn first...that way your front foot doesn't even touch the ground. Just go into a forward inside 3-turn, pause a second after switching to a back edge (don't spin into it!!!) and then jump. The front foot stays off the ice and crossed the whole time. After you have that securely, you'll know the right feeling and can try it from backwards. You can also try it from backwards crossovers but have your front foot off the ice the whole time. That's a LOT harder though.

The girl is my daughter and she was showing me what I was doing wrong (oh, how she loves to do that!). She has a very nice loop herself.

I actually had my weight on my back (right) leg, but everything else is true: my front leg is too far to the side; I'm not sitting back far enough; I'm not on the edge enough....

I did several more attempts on the New Year's Eve skate and one of our young skaters did comment that they were getting better (although they have a long way to go).

And, I've been working on them off-ice. I'm going to do some 3-turn attempts tomorrow also.

I wish I could take all of you to the rink with me!! Of course, it would probably get crowded but we would have FUN!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Ok, I just checked out your loop video. The loop is my most favorite jump, so I hope you don't mind another commentator on the issues that may be contributing to the troubles you are having.

1) Your back crossover are very slow and choppy. You don't seem comfortable at all stroking. Is this due to the jump fear or do you find them troublesome in general?

2) Your outside leg is not in the right position for take off. It's drifting out to the side.

3) There isn't any "will" or "power" to make the jump happen. Very tentative.

If I were you, I would suggest:

~Back crossover drills.
~Work on three turns. I never liked doing the loop from a three turn either, but even with the back crossover entrance, you need to be comfortable on that back outside edge, for takeoff. Really, you are doing the motion for a back 3 turn and just launching into the air instead.
~Back scratch spin

If I were you, I would maybe lay off the jump for a couple of weeks and work on other things that will help you land the jump. Maybe do walkthroughs of the technique. You don't seem ready to me to be doing this jump. And you don't want to create problems with faulty muscle memory later because you tried to sorta do the jump in your own way.

Good luck! (and thanks for that skate cleaner recipe, it works great!)

I'm glad you like the recipe!

I think lately I've been overwhelmed by a lot of things (skating and non-skating) and have tended to get distracted and have had things happen that have affected my confidence in skating (health-wise).

I'm going to focus on the back edges, which I've neglected; adding power and speed to my crossovers (also neglected) both front and back as well as working up speed on those darn pesky 3-turns.

And, I've let my basic waltz jump get very sloppy and slow (it was looking very nice and getting very high for a while).

Luckily, my coach and I have decided to put off testing for a season (thank goodness) so that buys me even more time to get everything right.

Hopefully, after a time, I will get this stupid jump! Meanwhile, all the work continues...
Terese

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

[QUOTE=Skate@Delaware]Ok, here is some video of my loop practice last night. Look for Terry's Loops and critique away......please!!! I really, really, want this jump!!!
[QUOTE]

I did, too, and it took me a long time to get it. I began with RFI 3 entry, and as my skating improved, worked up to back xovers.

I'm certainly no expert, but in watching your vid (loved the comments by the way..... ), I would suggest that you work on the loop from the RFI 3 entry for a while. I think that entry is easier and might yield more in results with your loop work.

In addition, it appears (as I didn't know if it was just because you knew you were going to try a loop jump, or .....) that your back xovers are slow and tentative. Just my opinion, but I don't think the loop will be helped by that prep. I think speed helps the loop, but that can only come with time and improvement. Just my opinion.

I recommend working on back xovers just on their own, the loop for now from RFI 3 to get more of a feeling for it, as well as work on a backspin. FWIW.

I'm trying to remember exactly how I was taught to do the loop from the RFI mohawk--it's been a few years since I've done a loop from this entrance. Anyway, don't put all of your weight on your left foot when you step backwards in the mohawk. Immediately after stepping onto your left foot, shift your weight backwards onto the right foot. Your right foot should be placed on the ice slightly to the right of your left foot, the same distance as apart for a normal loop jump. As soon as your weight shifts back to the right foot, you should begin to jump. Bend your right knee deeply and start pushing your right foot to the left side.

I hope this explanation helps--describing it in words is difficult! The most important tip for this entrance is that it must be done at a quick pace. You step onto your right foot right after completing your mohawk, and jump immediately thereafter. The preparation into the mohawk can take time, but the mohawk through to the jump shouldn't take long at all.

To answer your question, I'm not Japanese but lived in rural Japan and continued skating while there. It was great! Nihongo ga wakarimasuka?

Okay, it sounds like you are just describing a typical mohawk entry for a loop jump. When you said something about crossing your foot behind in your last post, I thought maybe it was a completely different entrance. Sorry about that.
Hai, nihongo dekimasu. 8 sai kara 18 sai made Kamakura ni sundeimashita. "Amerikan-skuuru" ni itteita kara, yomi-kaki wa chotto nigate dakedo. Nihon no doko ni sundeita no desuka?