I've been taught to be slim but muscular (i.e. the athletic look), not the "Kate Moss"/cocaine waif look. So far, staying as close to the athletic look as possible works for me. But I was also told at one time or another also that it's "normal" having a bit of fat, especially if you are planning to be bearing children in the future. (I remembered this one Japanese anime I've watched where a prospective MIL measures the wideness of the hips to deem whether it's wide enough to have her grandchildren. Of course, this embarasses the heck out of the son.)

Agreed that the best course of action is working w/the test chair to avoid testing when this judge shows up. Of course, in my case, I over-prepare for tests anyway, so that nerves will knock down to "barely passing."

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I agree with what you are saying, but I think that Peaches was not saying that a person needs to look like Calista Flockhart to be healthy. She was literally talking about the 20 extra pounds that many people carry that are above and beyond the weight that is healthy for your height--or your BMI.

I do think that some of the posts in this thread were too preachy because we all know noone really chooses to be overweight, and many of those people fight to lose it to no avail.

So, taking the middle of the line approach, I do think we have become too casual about obesity because it is a huge health concern. And I think it is important to distinguish between having some curves and being overweight. But on the other hand I completely understand how difficult and frustrating it can be to be overweight and how hard it is to take it off. So, I think there needs to be more sensitivity to the issue. Thin people should not assume that it is easy to get rid of this excess weight or that the person wants to be overweight. They should also realize that many overweight people do lead healthy lifestyles but have trouble getting their weight down to the recommended levels.

On the original subject, I think it was wrong for a judge to make comments about weight.

So true. There is a disturbing trend these days that women should have skinny bodies - but with fake boobs attached. (#1 plastic surgery) As the mother of a teenage girl I find that very troubling.

As for medical advice changing - true again. My mother smoked while she was pregnant with us, but the doctor said "no problem, your babies will just weigh a bit less".

I think the key is how you feel about yourself.

That's exactly what I meant.

How presumptious of the judge! She probably has an issue with her own body weight. I think it's great that you are happy and comfortable with yourself. Many people (even the slim ones) have yet to find that sense of confidence and security in themselves.

A couple of posters to this thread have mentioned that they wished they had gotten feedback from judges(not on weight, which I think should be taboo) but in general.

Judges are not supposed to offer unsolicited criticism but may offer unsolicited praise. If you would like a judge's feedback on your test or competitive program all you have to do is ask.

Nicely and politely, of course, and be preapred to listen, not argue about your result.

Just the older skater, or younger skater with coach, should do this. Parents should try to resist the temptation!

__________________
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I think the point of all this, though...is that the judge didn't say "Lose weight or you'll never pass", the original poster admitted herself that she skidded on her 3 turns. As a test-taker, I personally do not understand why anyone would go ahead and test for something they KNOW they have problems with. Especially moves...there's no forgiving skids and the like in moves! Why not fix them before taking the test? If the test had been done perfectly, then the poster would have passed. Now if the test had been perfect and she still had NOT passed, then and only then would it be fair to put in a complaint. But...this judge didn't say "I didn't pass you cause you're fat", she offered her advice. And it's a worthwhile one. Maybe not for the 3-turns, but as a judge, she has a right to advise test takers on what will get them further. She didn't insult anyone, yes, I do believe she let the bitterness of her own struggles with weight seep through her dialogue...but everyone's own experiences will taint one's thoughts about a certain situation...that's the human way. I think that if you are going to be in a performance sport, you should be ready for things like this. Otherwise, don't test. You are testing for people, people who have to watch and judge you, and they are telling you what needs to improve, which is your weight. That's the general idea here: they judge you, you fix it. If you don't like the concept, there's PLENTY of skating that can be done without being judged, especially in ISI, where you can actually pass your tests with your coach, and no judges.

I've had weight problems in the past, so I actually DO know that it's very hard, and I'm not blaming the poster for being overweight, or even for being okay with being overweight. I'm just saying that when you join the USFSA, you become part of an organization that indeed stands for certain things that might not be politically correct, but they are there nonetheless. And one thing, is yes, an overweight skater will get held down, they'll get told to lose the extra pounds, and that's the USFSA. You don't see a SINGLE even slightly overweight skater on tv, ever, do you? It's not just coincidence. That's the organization you joined, and if you aren't happy with what they believe in (and I don't blame you) then find another. ISI, for example, doesn't give a flying crap about weight. It's a completely different track. Recreational, whereas USFSA is definitely competition oriented. And if you're gonna seriously compete, then you need to get your weight down. If you wanna do this for fun, join the organization made for it. I love the USFSA and I really don't think they are so out of line to expect fit skaters...body line and presentation does count for a lot, just as in dance and other performance sports/arts where your body is your instrument. But it's not for everyone, it's not fair, however, to blame the messengers of the system you joined for following their own guidelines.

-FadedStardust

The passing standard for the Pre Juvenile Moves is not perfection.

__________________
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

1. quarkiki, you're right...not all asthmatics are obese. I have a close friend who is 5'2", 100 lbs, a choreographer, and an allergy-induced asthmatic. However, she hasn't had an attack in years, and I can't remember the last time she used her inhaler. I have another friend who has noticed that her asthma attacks have been greatly reduced when she gave up gluten, dairy, and sugar, so I have to believe that asthma is related to diet. Since my family is living proof that diet is related to obesity, I made that connection. My mom is absolutely beautiful, probably the fittest person over 55 I know. Her much younger sisters, who are junk food junkies, are constantly having health problems. One is overweight and the other is so obese that the doctor has told her that she will die if she doesn't lose weight. Ironically, when my mom has goaded her obese sister into eating more healthy, a lot of her health problems magically disappear. Hmmm. Same genes, different health profiles. Go figure.

2. sonora, ITA, big time. Adult Mids was full of strangely judged events. Look up the results of the Championship events. Both masters (lots of mistakes) and gold ladies (everyone skated well) were difficult events to judge, and the ordinals were everywhere. Feedback is necessary, especially if you end up 5th or 6th in those events. Asking a judge for feedback can make the difference between qualifying and not qualifying. And I agree, don't argue with a judge. I have been able to justify every placement I have received in skating, thanks to a wonderful friend and competitor who happens to also be a judge.

3. A lot of you say that nothing should be said, that no complaint should be made. I agree that the judge felt s/he was well-intentioned, but how many well-intentioned comments are coming from that judge? Has this judge also made that comment to kids, or was it something that judge would only do to adults? My concern is not morgan, who sounds like she is upset but not devastated by the remark, which is what I expect from a middle-aged adult. A teenager, however, doesn't have the maturity and wisdom that morgan has, and similar comments could have a devastating effect.

Erin

Sonora, maybe not perfection...but not scratching or scraping on 3-turns isn't being perfect. It's just doing the move correctly. In pre-juv, one should be able to do a good 3-turn.

-FadedStardust

morgan: What does your coach say you're doing that causes your back 3's to skid?

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I qualified for Adult Nationals last weekend. I am a serious adult skater and competitor. I don't think that anyone can claim that I am anywhere near thin.

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Congratulations, that's awesome! Adults get held down less than kids because of weight, from what I've been told, because *most* judges understand adults have been through pregnancies and the like, and that the metabolism isn't as high. But they still do get prejudiced so you must have your elements very well. No one will get completely denied something, especially in adult division, solely on weight. But if it's a toss up, I do believe it'll tip the scales, no pun intended.

Most of the judges that judge adult tests also judge regular kids and sometimes, they can't really draw the difference between the two, as was discussed in the first MITF thread. Plus, I'm not clear on this part at all, but Morgan said she was doing Pre-Juv moves, right? Not adult Silver or whatever, which would mean she took the regular track test, which woud definitely mean the weight emphasis would be present, and the judges would be tougher because it would be regular track standards. Maybe I got this part wrong. Either way though, I do believe that if the 3-turns had been better, this would not even be an issue. I'm just saying the competitive skating world, because of its performance aspect, does stress trim bodies, it's a matter of who happens to be judging you and what they think appearance plays in this sport. You'll find a lot of the judges find that it's a lot, and I'm pretty sure our federation would agree, and that transpires in a lot of results that turn up. I'm just saying that right or wrong, I highly doubt we'll change it anytime soon, so either it's something you can live with, or it isn't.

Good luck to you at AN!

-FadedStardust

I was one of the people who suggested a complaint may be counter productive. My reason had nothing to do with whether a complaint was justified, just that it could hurt Morgan on a later test. Not that it should, or even would, but why take that chance?

Hugs!
Danielle

So then, we shouldn't even try to change something that is wrong?

I think a lot of us realize that making some kind of formal complaint -- or even not, but just mentioning it to someone in charge -- will probably not elicit change, especially immediately. The point is that you don't just let something like that go completely unmentioned. It lets this woman get away with her comments, and she may do it again. What 'complaining' does is raise a flag, so that if it happens again and is reported, then people have background to go on. That's all.

If I were morgan, I'd definitely say something, because especially as an adult, there's no reason to cower because saying something might affect future tests or results. If it does--then that's wrong too, and that also needs to be spoken against.

I think perhaps a polite note to the test chair stating something along the lines of...

"After I tested my XXX (Pre-Juv MITF) and got my results, one of the judges on my panel approached me and made the following comments concerning my appearance and weight. ...keep the description purely factual, no emotion (which is very difficult when dealing with such an issue)... I do not know if other test candidates have had similar experiences with this judge or other judges, but I found it very unsettling, and wished to report it to you. I understand that your options are limited, but ...... Should I experience a re-occurence of comments of this nature from the same individual in the future, I will strongly consider filing a formal complaint to the Regional Vice-Chair for Judges."

Comments? (As I run, duck and hide....)

I agree. I'll also go so far as to say that adult skaters are constantly complaining that they're not taken seriously by the USFS. Well, IMO, if one wants to be taken seriously as an athlete, then one should take more care about one's appearance and attempt to look more like an athlete. Athletes don't typically have 20 extra pounds flapping around, rolls of fat around their waists, back fat, huge thighs, etc.

I'm not an advocate for being underweight, but the vast majority of adult skaters I see are certainly carrying more weight than is healthy. I think if skaters want to be taken seriously then they should make more effort to look the part of a fit , not skinny, fit, person who takes their sport seriously. If they're not willing to do that much then I can see why the USFS sort blows the adults off.

Let me share an unpleasant secret with you...

That extra 5-10 pounds that was easy to lose at age 15, becomes a LOT harder to lose after age 30, and even harder after age 40. The metabolism just plain slows down. (Something I jokingly remind my sister of, every time she comments about her weight loss efforts....)

Add to that the fact that most of us adults get about 1/3 of the ice and exercise time of someone under age 21... I am lucky if in any given week, I can get more than 4-5 hours of ice time or other gym time, and I'm probably not alone in the adult category in this regard. Compare this to the teens at the rink who skate 10-15 hours per week.

Don't assume that we are CHOOSING to be overweight.

I totally agree.

Peaches, as you know I agree with you on the importance of health, and I think we all understand that it can be unhealthy to be overweight. But I really think you are trying to simplify an issue that is not simple.

As Jen and many others have explained, a person does not choose to be overweight. And you cannot assume that an overweight person is not making an effort to be healthy or lose the weight. Many of them are. But it is very difficult to do, especially as you get older.

There is no reason for an overweight person to hold off on all activities until they are thin. Taking up skating is a fun activity and the exercise can help a person with their weight loss goals. Life is not only meant to be lived by those that have a BMI of 25 or less. Noone will deny that they would prefer to be at a healthy weight, but that does not mean they should be denied success in their activities just because they are overweight.

You may be a thin person that has never dealt with weight gain, and if so, good for you. That would be wonderful. Or maybe you have and you lost the weight. That is great too. But don't assume that it is easy for everyone to lose the extra weight. Because for many people it is not, no matter how hard they try.

It's not really up to this skater to speculate about what this judge is saying to teenagers. The skater should focus on resolving the problem regarding her own situation if she found it truly that offensive, not second guessing the judge's other actions when she does not know.

Personally, I would have said something to the judge immediately & left it at that. Judges can have opinions, but the problem is that she apparently provided an unsolicited one. It did not affect the judging of the test, which was failed because the elements had technical problems. That is not the type of situation that screams out for a "take no prisoners" approach, although I do see how reinforcing the idea to avoid giving unsolicited feedback would be helpful.

I have been on the receiving end of such remarks numerous times. One time I had a parent who needed a last minute permission letter. And I do mean last minute, as in calling me at work wanting me to go late to a scheduled meeting to complete the form RIGHT NOW & fax it to her because she wanted to take it to the post office. When I told her I would have to send it as soon as I returned from my meeting, her response was "Any idiot should be able to take care of something like this right away". I suggested to her if that's the case, maybe in future she would agree to be the idiot who could serve & I would gladly make sure I planned my events in advance so I could give her more than 5 minutes notice if I needed help with forms. She got the message loud & clear. I followed up later by explaining that unpaid club work gets done before, after or in-between (but not instead of ) paid jobs & gave a couple suggestions to help her get her forms done earlier next time. It took care of the problem, & there was no written complaint to the club or USFSA needed. Sometimes people simply don't think about the other side of the situation & when it's pointed out to them they do make the effort to understand.

Fadedstardust and peaches:

As far as "If you want to have fun, then join the organization made for it"

That's the difference in adult and kid skaters. We adults have the ability to welcome all, and allow all to enjoy the sport at whatever level they choose. And for:

"the vast majority of adult skaters I see are certainly carrying more weight than is healthy. I think if skaters want to be taken seriously then they should make more effort to look the part of a fit .."

Perhaps you should open your eyes a bit wider. What do you think they are doing out there? They're not home eating chocolates and watching skating - they are out there working! How do you know those you don't consider "serious" have not already lost wt. and are in better shape than when they began?

It's not the job of a judge or anyone else to consider what kind of efforts are being made to be more fit. What matters is what they see and if they see an unfit skater, then it's an unfit skater, nothing can change that. If a person is putting themselves out there to be judged, then expect some people to take note of whether or not a skater is fit, fat, or whatever. If they don't want anyone to notice their weight then they shouldn't be in a subjective sport where weight is an issue, they should pick out a nice bowling ball or golf club. If a fat skater is going to force others to look at them then it's to be expected that someone, at some time, will make comments about the issue. Is it right? Not necessarily. But it is a fact.

What I see and hear, often, from adult skaters is the old "I've had babies", "I've always been big", "I'm over 40", "My metabolism has slowed down".

And I say to them: You had babies? When? Because unless it was in the last year, pregnancy fat is not an excuse.

Just because you've always been big, doesn't mean you have to stay that way. Statistically speaking the percentage of people with legit genetic disorders that cause them to be overweight is very, very small, so unless you've got one of those, you can lose weight.

Over 40? So that means you might have to try a little harder to lose, doesn't mean you can't.

Metabolism? Same thing, try harder. The more you excercise, the more your metabolism will speed up.

People have been fooled into believing that they have to look the way they do, when that is simply not the case. So it might take a little more effort. Make it. Don't settle.

I had an aunt who, in her 40's, decided she'd had it with being overweight. She consulted her doctor, thought he might recommend a diet to help her. He told her, yes, you're overweight, but you've had 3 kids, you're over 40, cut yourself some slack. She ditched that doctor, stopped on the way home and bought some running shoes, threw out all the junk food, lost the weight and never looked back. She's 67 and has maintained her weight for 25 years. Still runs 5 miles a day. She didn't settle for the old excuses and neither should anyone else. Have more respect for yourself than that.

And, Flo, if adult skaters welcome all, and a lot of them are unfit and overweight, then expect the USFS to not take them seriously as athletes.

Peaches, I agree with your entire post. Pretty much what I wanted to say but I don't think I would have managed to hit all those points as well as you did, well done.

I'd like to add some things: I'm not telling adults, overweight or not, not to skate! I'm saying if you're not happy with USFSA, then go somewhere else. It's not like you HAVE to stay in USFSA cause they govern the United States "section" of the Olympics. Why does it matter which organization you choose? Shouldn't you have one more catered to your goals? And if you do want to be a part of the "more serious" organization, then...how can you expect them to cut you ALL this slack and still treat you as equals?

Kids have to pass those tests perfectly (or almost), otherwise they are failed, and this is truer the harder the tests go. They DO need to be near perfect, and there's no reason they should expect to pass if they aren't, anyway. I looked at the adult test standard. I know they aren't always followed, but I can't believe you were all complaining about the fact that not every judge honors it!! You're saying you want judges to cut you some slack, to expect mediocre work (because I'm sorry, but the passing criteria for the adult track moves ARE mediocre...put your foot down between 3 turns on the line? Well if you could do that, anyone could do them, what's even the point?) so you're complaining that they don't cut you MORE slack on tests, that they don't pass you when your stuff is subpar, and then you complain that the USFSA views adults as bad skaters. Well, you can't pass the tests the way they were meant to be passed, and you're asking to pass anyway instead of just working more (and I don't care if you don't have the time, if you wanna test, then make the time, or let it take longer, but don't go in with crap edges and a bunch of excuses and think it's worth anything), of course the USFSA isn't gonna take that seriously. And so on TOP of that, even if the USFSA, and really, the ISU, stresses fit bodies, you also expect them to tolerate the extra weight because you're having a hard time losing it? Well, it's not their problem! You pay for a judge to come to your rink, they come, you say "Okay, judge me" and they do and you're not happy with it. So...USFSA, ISI, whatever, just don't test then. Don't compete. Just skate "for fun". If you do want to compete, then you should strive harder for the same standard as the REST of the USFSA's athletes. We all bust our butts getting those tests perfect, getting rid of the extra weight, and just because you're a little older you should be cut all this slack and still be treated as equals? That's crap. If you wanna be treated as equals, then act as equals and don't feel like the USFSA owes you anything, because it doesn't. Work hard and maybe they'll respect you. That's how the rest of us have always done it, why is it that just because you're an adult you feel you instantly deserve the respect for not lifting so much as a little finger? Maybe you shouldn't be expected to do triple jumps (although they've been done at AN before), but...moves? Everyone who can skate can do them. If you're not well enough physically to do moves, you probably should pick a less high impact sport. So why a different passing standard? Why can adult competitors carry an extra 20 or even 5 pounds, when no one else can? Because it's harder? Oh please. Why don't I go to Worlds next year and compete with all double jumps and say I can't do any triples cause they're harder for me because I have back problems (which I do, even though I'm young)? I'll be LAUGHED at. God, I'd laugh at myself.

I'm done now, and this is nothing personal against anyone here, I actually enjoy debating with everybody, this is just general commenting in regard of this entire situation, per se. This just all really rubs me the wrong way. Bottom line: you want to be treated equally, then accept the same conditions as us all, which includes being trim and nailing your tests perfectly. You want special treatment, then fine, here it is, but expect to be treated below the level of USFSA's other athletes, because after all, that's what you asked for. You can't have it all.

-FadedStardust

Okay, this thread has gotten rather ridiculous. You (collective) seem to have completely missed or lost the entire point of adult skating, which is:

ADULT SKATERS ARE NOT CHILD SKATERS.

I realize that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but some of you are being downright ridiculous. There IS a difference between standard testing and Adult testing. Even my coach, who is well respected and well known among skaters, parents, and judges, admits that. He knows that we, having spouses, children, and jobs, or some combination of those, simply cannot spend as many hours at the rink as the children do. And he realizes that adults do not have the same bodies as children do. That does not mean that people like peaches and fadedstardust should be telling us not to test. I resent the comment about us wanting to pass "without lifting a finger." Let me tell you, we work very hard. We do not expect to be passed on sub-par elements just because we have a few extra pounds, or bad backs, or children at home that we need to care for instead of spending 20+ hours a week at the rink. We expect to be judged fairly, to be passed when our moves are done correctly (and just so you know, I do not test my moves until they are good enough to pass on the standard track, even though I test adult track, and my coach expects this of all his adult skaters), and to be failed if we screw up. But we shouldn't have to now worry that a judge is going to mark us down for not having the same body type as the little kids. I think that maybe some people should wait until they, too, are mature adults (and I mean physically here, I'm not calling anyone mentally immature) before they pass judgement on those of us who are testing as adults. Just my opinion.