[quote:c9688d2762="Yazmeen"]Really not close to there yet: One foot spin. Today I asked her to break it down. Spent a lot of time at the boards learning to do the three turn and then bring the free foot around with the skating foot (while holding on with left hand to eliminate fear of wiping out). Jeez, this is a bear!!!! I will be accumulating a lot of "wall time" this week.

Overall the session was good and helpful, and it was very worthwile and I definitely made progress; However, I came out of it frustrated, pissy and feeling low. WHY IS EVERYTHING SO HARD FOR ME????? Why can't I just EVER do anything naturally? Its always struggle, struggle, struggle for every skill (save the half toe walley, which came quickly). I know, I know, its not that bad, I've made major progress this summer, but sometimes I just HATE the fact that my learning curve for most skills is so long. It just gets really annoying sometimes.
[/quote:c9688d2762]

Hang in there, Beth. I think things come in spurts for a lot of people, and maybe you're just on a little bit of a plateau. You really have made a lot of progress!

About your spin, I wanted to ask how old your blades are and if you've checked to see if you still have enough of a rocker. I found out that my blades have flattened out over 3 years so, while the rocker radius in the middle of the blade is okay, the decrease in radius going towards the front of the blade is no where near enough. So this may explain my struggles to learn to spin, or so my blade sharpener/mounter and my coach tell me. You might want to consider this, too.

As for me, I did 2 unassisted toe loops on Sunday in front of my coach (who nearly killed me with the rest of my long, long lesson), and several more yesterday. True, they're more toe-waltz than toe loops, but still it's exciting. My other coach started teaching me the pre-juv/adult bronze 5 step Mohawk pattern yesterday, and wasn't that an adventure! I can see where it's going to take me awhile, but it's a lot of fun!

Pat

Pat: My coach already has me working on the 5 step Mohawk, alternating sides down the line. As mohawks come much more easily to me than 3 turns, it is pretty much a breeze. I just had to learn to time each "stroke" so that they would be even. All I keep doing these days is counting "1-2-3" with crossovers, mohawks, waltz jumps, etc. to even out the moves/edges. I'm perpetually waltzing!!! (Wa wa wa wa, waltzing with bears....)

Thanks for the uplifting words, Pat and Gary and everyone. I do feel better. And I have a sharpening tonight, so I will have Dori look at my rocker.

Beth

Yazmeen: You are not alone..not by a long shot. I wonder the same thing every time I skate..Why can't anything come naturally, why is everything such a struggle, etc. I've been "skating" for over three years and I still feel shakey just stroking..I can't seem to control the rocking on my blades no matter what I'm doing. I've already been through ISI Alpha through FS II classes and I just put myself back into an Alpha class to regain some confidence and skills. I also share my private coaching ice with 6 international dance teams...talk about intimidating! But I agree with Gary 100%..that we're special because we keep trying. So I sympathize with you and comiserate with you and I'm there right with you, so have heart..as I do, because I think we tend to overlook how much we HAVE already achieved..and that's pretty cool!

Beth - another "You're not alone" here. Everyone feels a bit pooh about their skating sometimes, either because they don't feel they're progressing as they'd like to, or because they're having other skating problems, or whatever. I felt like that on Saturday, I came off early even though I never do that, because I had no motivation at all and was feeling really low. I was getting frustrated about certain moves and it just wasn't a good day. But I hope to be able to go tomorrow, and hopefully I'll feel better and will get more done. And I'm DETERMINED to get the loop.

__________________
"It’s never too late to skate at any age." - Alexei Mishin.

[quote:1f831623e6="icenut84"]Beth - another "You're not alone" here. Everyone feels a bit pooh about their skating sometimes, either because they don't feel they're progressing as they'd like to, or because they're having other skating problems, or whatever. [/quote:1f831623e6]

Oh yes, Queen of the Pooh checking in!! Look at me last week ..... a hair's breadth from giving up! All the best, Beth

WEDNESDAY

Life is crap and getting crappier but skating is getting better ....... mmmmm! BI and BO's are MUCH improved Was a very, very good girl and practised my Field Moves without being told! Also did some basic edges which are much deeper and more secure than they've ever been (hey, I AM improving ).

Lesson started with Field Moves, out of the lot the consecutive FO3's are the ropiest closely followed by the BO3's with mohawk! HOWEVER, madame DID say that they would pass!!! I am NOT, though, putting my papers in until they ALL feel 'unropey' LOL.

Camel was a bit improved but I've still not readjusted to the blade being in the CORRECT place Backspin is much, much better, I can hardly believe it after all the trials and tribulations I had with the damn thing.

Programme actually went VERY well, the basics were better, fluffed the BI3 a bit and got a dance couple standing slap bang in the middle of where the BO3 goes AGAIN but it wasn't bad and I even got the backspin out AND the exit from the backspin out at the end of the programme .......

Have chosen the music for my 'interpretative' (ps did any of you manage to get a copy of the rules? ta x) ... am going to attempt to do it to 'Con te Partiro' (aka Time to Say Goodbye) by Sarah Brightman and Andrea Boccelli ....... it's totally adorable and I've ALWAYS loved it ....... even Madame likes it so we MAY be onto a winner She asked me how I envisaged it, I said "lots of trauma with the footwork and 3turns" She did comment, however, that I will need to skate properly if I'm to do it justice!

L x

__________________

The best whisper is a click

I feel the same about my flip-toeloop.
It gets worse.
My foot was a bit achy today, but I had another lesson, with all jumps plus my programme twice (boy was I knackered after that 1.5 mins!! ) which she said would pass a test.
I just haven't signed any papers yet... :wink:

The backspin is the pits, but the camel is fine.
All the kids were trying to help me (with yukky backspin), and Gemma, bless her, was starting to get annoyed because I could only do it 1 time out of 6 or so. She of course is 11, and has one of those blurry fast backspins.

No skating till Saturday.

__________________
MEL
Absolute Skating

Beth, you are [i:a20a9ccedd]not[/i:a20a9ccedd] alone, and I can't sleep when my husband is restless, either! Fortunately, he seldom is, but when he is, oh boy....

But when you are an overweight, nearly 50-something, who was a couch potato for thirty years before taking up this sport, it really does take forever to learn things! My coach is always reminding me that I have made progress and that I do take longer to learn than some. "Look how far you've come!" he said.

Actually, he was in a complimentary mood today, most unlike him! He asked me to do the level 3 dances solo, and said of my Golden Skaters' Waltz that "It was like the dances that you do well; not at all bad, but you [i:a20a9ccedd]must[/i:a20a9ccedd] bend your knee more and extend more!"

He's quite right, of course (listen to that rain! And that thunder is nearly overhead!), my free leg is horrendously apt to dangle in the breeze. I noticed it when I was working on my changes-of-edge; especially the inside-to-outside, which I still find challenging - my free leg, because I wasn't concentrating on what it was doing, was just dangling there.

As it was in my free dance, in the slow section, which now goes diagonally across the rink - it doesn't actually fit, but himself says he doesn't think I'll be penalised for that, "not at your level!" I hope he's right. Anyway, I realised that when I am doing all the 3-turns, my free leg is any old where, so I ran through it focussing on what my free leg was doing, and with it in the right place when I did a back 3 - [color=red:a20a9ccedd]and for the first time ever, I actually got some flow out of a back 3!!!!![/color:a20a9ccedd] I was delighted. I can get pretty good flow out of my FO3s now, and usually on the exit edge of my FI 3s (but not flow into them yet), but not on the back 3s, so this was a milestone. Of course, I couldn't reproduce it.

Also pleased to find I can do FI twizzle, FO edge, FI twizzle - rather slowly and ponderously, but I can do them.

My coach says I must work on my bending and stretching off ice to strengthen my knees - the knee I didn't strap on Monday was playing up and had to be strapped up today. I showed him how my 1-footed slaloms were coming along, but added I didn't dare do much more than that.

All in all a pretty good skate day.

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Regal:

I'm back on the ice after being off of the ice for 2 months. I first touched the ice this summer on vacation down in Clearwater Florida. That was it. I was hooked again. Like a drug addiction, one taste and you're back at it skating.

Waltz jumps, forward spins and footwork for my freeskate program.

Rotten, the ice I'm skating on. Canadian Adult Ice. Canadian Adult Ice means, all levels of skaters and disciplines at the same time. There were people on the ice that could barely stand on the ice. There were a few other freeskaters on the ice but they were also limited by who was on the ice. Then there were ice dancers. Let's say, this summer will be a time to just work on elements and/or sections of my freeskate. I can't even think about choreographing my interpretive freeskates, US and Canadian (time differences).

Perspective: This summer skating once a week on ice that's not exactly great will give me a chance to work on individual elements. I'm hoping though that I'll get a crack at the loop, flip and lutz if I can find the space on the ice.

Overcomings:I'm trying to get a waltz/loop happening right out of a LBI3 which comes after a RI Open Mohawk. So far my LFO edge on the back end of the LBI3 is not riding long enough to hook the waltz jump to jump high enough to get the loop on the end of the waltz jump. I'll be trying to fix that tonight. This is only one of four jumps being done out of steps in my freeskate program. I also hope to hook that RB upright spin (ea. backspin) so that I can get more than one rotation, maybe 4. Need to sit lower in sit spin and get more than 2 rotations. I'm not much of a spinner. Jumps are way easier so far for me.

Brigitte

__________________
"It's not age that determines but the heart." "Skating is not just a sport for the young but it's a passion for the soul of the young at heart." Brigitte Laskowski

I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

http://eastcastlemusic.tripod.com

Singerskates Sports Music Editing

Regal:

Camel spins, scratch spins, backspins! Also began working on back camels and even the flying camel! Can't wait to get my cast off so I can really attack that one. Had some really good attitude spins too...

Also had a really fast sit spin in a good position, so fast that when I rose out of it and pushed off on my exit edge, I was way dizzy and fell to the ice like a noodle!


Rotten:

Jumping. Especially waltz jumps, but what can I expect with this stupid cast?? I'll be so glad when it comes off next Monday.

__________________
All that glitters has a high refractive index.

Regal:

I finally (re) discovered my scratch spin! I think I did about 5 or 6 at my lesson yesterday. Yippee!

Toe loop and waltz-toe loop combo are good. I just have to work on not veering around after the waltz part of it.

We finally learned the BO turns. Mine definitely need work, but they're not as scary as I thought they'd be.

Now I can pass Freestyle 1 next week. Yay!


Rotten:

Fell on my rear on a lunge. Another woman in my lesson told me that she was just about to complement me on it (she was a little behind me) when I lost my balance. Then, she said she was worried about running me over!

Well, this isn't really rotten, but my instructor had us work on alternating FO 3-turns and told us the proper way to hold our arms was away from the circle - same w/BO 3s. When I first learned turns in Basic 4 or something like that, my instructor told us to open our arms toward the circle where we were turning. So now, I guess I've got to learn to do it the other way. Is there a consensus view on the best way to do turns?

Fell on a sit spin in practice - I can't go a whole week w/o falling on a spin, can I? Of course, my sit spin attempts in my lesson were like non-attempts.

THURSDAY

Did Field Moves and edges to start [i:ed09b2b729][color=darkblue:ed09b2b729](note to Lynne - this is a good habit to get into!)[/color:ed09b2b729][/i:ed09b2b729].

Then went onto back 3's and step sequence. My BI's ARE much improved even though I still stuff them up occasionally in my step sequence. I'm not prepared to test until I'm really, really confident with these!

Backspin was fine, camel was hit and miss BUT the hit's are much more solid now so at least there is SOME kind of progress!

Keep having the occasional fall on the flip in my programme, I DON'T know why! It's not something that I've had a problem with before ....... I AM going into it faster which I guess could throw me a bit OR it could be that I'm just not 'programme fit' for this one yet (it's right at the very end) ..... whatever it is I obviously need to keep running the programme AND lose some weight!!!!

Not much else to report, videotaped the kids who are doing the Solo Dance Championships at the weekend, they're SO good, I wish I was HALF the skater that they are

L x

__________________

The best whisper is a click

[b:16debd50b1]Wednesday night[/b:16debd50b1]

* Axels, double sals and double loops were all cheated but on one foot.
* Camels were really fast.
* Flying camels nice and centered.
* Deathdrop? What deathdrop?

Hi Debbie,
I'm no expert but just a thought on the 3 turns and arms. What you do with your arms in a 3 turn, depends on what you want to do afterwards. When you learned 3 turns your arms helped you to get the turn motion and you were probably doing them in isolation. Now if you are trying to do alternate 3 turns you need to check the turn ready to go in the opposite direction rather than keep turning and so your arms have to be held differently. Also as you progress you don't need your arms to help you with the turn so much as when you first learned them as the turn should come from holding the deep edge and the knee action.
That's the thing with skating - as soon as you think you have one thing cracked you learn there is a better way or a more advanced version or an alternative depending what you want to do next. Keeps it exciting. Sometimes it does seem to be such a struggle but then as my coach says "If you could do it straight away then you wouldn't need me to teach you" And 'if it was that easy then everyone could do it'.
I'm missing out on the ice for a couple of weeks as there's a hockey camp and my coach is on holiday so no lessons.
Happy skating

Thanks, batikat! That makes sense. I've just got to fight my instincts to turn my arms one way when they should be the opposite. Sigh - wish I was more coordinated!

Wednesday Night:

Regal: speed, crosscuts and footwork. Spins are faster and have more rotation and better positioning.

Rotton: My body. Tired and stiff. Not getting enough sleep even with my naps. It took me half the session to rip off a decent waltz jump and then almost the whole session to do a waltz/toe combo. And I couldn't get a loop to happen. Everytime I went to try one, it ended up being a toe loop. Spiral (forward outside inside) was interupted by adult ice dancers and adult learn to skaters, so I never got to get my free leg up.

Perspective: Be happy I have some time on the ice to mess around and get back in shape for the fall, when my coach gets on my back for mistakes. I've got no pressure to perform now and can just do what I want (almost).

Taught some adult learn to skate hockey guys a hockey drill. Skate like a demon and then hockey stop and then off of your outside edge or your right foot push off to go in the other direction and then do the same after five strokes, repeat. Then had the guys pretend to hold hockey sticks and do the drill. I beat them all the time even though I was ready to fall over from exhaustion. First I had to correct their hockey stop. They kept on forgetting to check their right arm to stop the turn..

__________________
"It's not age that determines but the heart." "Skating is not just a sport for the young but it's a passion for the soul of the young at heart." Brigitte Laskowski

I am a nomadic adult skater who is a member of Windsor FSC (Skate Windsor) WOS SC again since Sept. 1st, 2008.

http://eastcastlemusic.tripod.com

Singerskates Sports Music Editing

i never noticed how hard it is to skate when you need to get your blades sharpened sooooo badly.
regal:
1-foot spin - oh it is coming along, i can get around 1 or 2 times on 1-foot. yippee!
Three jump - oh it is really good. i feel over once doing the jump and that was because i made my upper body collapse. but when i feel i whacked my right knee and it has a big bruise on it and there is some blood under the skin.
rotten:
RFO 3-turns - i can sometimes do it and sometimes can't. does anybody have any advice for me?

Nutty-ducky, just keep on plugging away at those RFO3s, and they will come. If you do "waltz 3s", i.e. 3-turns round the circle, with a BO edge between each, make sure you practice in both directions.

On Wednesday, there were very few of us on the ice. That was not true this morning, and, to make matters worse, there were an awful lot of what someone described as "Whizzers" - really good skaters, both free skaters and dancers, dashing about the place at speed! This made it quite awkward to get any sustained work done.

Robert and I practiced swing rolls in Kilian hold, then we tried to work on skating backwards in Kilian, but really, it was hopeless! We did a couple of end patterns of the Fiesta Tango, but there wasn't really room to work on them solidly anywhere. And we are hopeless at just plain backwards stroking in Kilian hold - it is more awkward than it sounds. Then we worked on our chasses in waltz hold, which do improve slowly, and to end with, we did a Golden Skaters' Waltz as that music was playing. It wasn't bad, I didn't think, but the third pattern was a bit funny - I think we were getting tired - so I stopped us before we started the fourth pattern.

After he had gone, I worked on my back 3-turns, backwards stroking, back chasses and swing rolls, and the backwards section of my free dance, not in pattern but just trying to give it a bit of flow, and focussing all the time on where my free leg was. I also did some changes of edge, and realise I am not sure where my free leg wants to be between the change of edge and the subsequent run. I suspect it ought to be held behind, but mine tends to dangle.....

The trouble with very good skaters is that they make you realise just how crappy you really are! Oh well, I never pretended to be other.

On a side note, my coach and his wife had enough lessons to make it worth their while coming in this morning. They don't normally come in on a Friday morning, but there is no teatime ice in the holidays, so some of their pupils had asked for early lessons. One of his pupils is staying with them, and both his wife and the pupil were yawning their heads off at 8.30 this morning, having obviously been asleep in the car. It transpired that they had been to Butlin's (holiday camp) the previous day, and had not got to bed until the small hours.... I thought of [i:6effb3cd3d]Little Girls in Pretty Boxes[/i:6effb3cd3d] where the skater lives with her coach to improve her training and her chances of making the Olympics - in this case, living with her coach seems to be rather bad for this particular skater! Her mother is away nursing a sick father, and she would rather stay with her coach, and be adored by his 4-year-old, than stay at home with her father and elder sister..... somehow, I can see the attraction!

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

nuttyducky: I had the exact opposite problem yesterday--I skated on a fresh sharpening and it was like slogging through oatmeal. At one point, I did a back outside edge, and my skating foot slowed down and came to a dead stop. There I was, one foot lifted, looking like a demented flamingo...

As for three turns, what is really helping me is learning to make the initial edge longer and longer before I turn, and trying to let the turn happen naturally. Of course, as I said in another thread, I'm still thinking of taking my LFI3 out to dinner, getting it drunk and trying to take advantage of it afterward... :wink:

Good luck,

Beth

thanks annabel for the advice. next time i go ice skating i will work on my RFO 3-turn and try to perfect it!

[quote="Yazmeen"]nuttyducky: I had the exact opposite problem yesterday--I skated on a fresh sharpening and it was like slogging through oatmeal. At one point, I did a back outside edge, and my skating foot slowed down and came to a dead stop. There I was, one foot lifted, looking like a demented flamingo...

shame! does anyone else need to join our group of people who need there blades sharpened very badly!?

[quote:89217d7839="Debbie S"]Rotten:

Well, this isn't really rotten, but my instructor had us work on alternating FO 3-turns and told us the proper way to hold our arms was away from the circle - same w/BO 3s. When I first learned turns in Basic 4 or something like that, my instructor told us to open our arms toward the circle where we were turning. So now, I guess I've got to learn to do it the other way. Is there a consensus view on the best way to do turns?
[/quote:89217d7839]

I'm working on those rotten things at the moment too for my Inter-Bronze Field Moves test The way that I've been taught is:

Stroking into the first 3 - LFO3 with left arm in front, right to side and slightly back, don't rotate straight into the 3 but hold the edge first, rotate at the waist so that the right arm is stretched to the front and then turn towards the right hand (actually think of turning TOWARDS it, this will (ha ha) stop the swing!) BUT as you turn you must check strongly (but without jerking) so that the right arm is leading the way ........ the BI position that I have been taught is with the free leg turned out strongly and stretched with the toe pointed, the left arm is in front of your body and the body rotated from the waist towards the free leg (it's almost a feeling of trying to rotate so that you're facing backwards towards your free leg). When you step to forwards you bring your feet back together (in a controlled manner) before striking onto the FO edge for the next 3. An exercise that Madame gets us to do is to skate backwards on a hockey circle, put your feet together, then when you are stable rotate the body towards what *should* be the free leg (again thinking of rotating from the waist) and when THIS position is stable to really turn out and stretch the free leg so that you're skating on a BI edge .... once you've mastered this THEN you can start to bring the free leg in to the skating leg and then out again ....... WITHOUT LOSING THE BODY POSITION!!!!! When you're starting to learn these things this is much easier said than done (and it DOES sound really easy doesn't it?), it DOES, however help tremendously with controlling the transition from the BI edge to the FO edge before the next 3. I have to say that my coach is predominantly a dance coach and is super strict on how these things are done! I could get away with a lot more for my test but she is majorly into control and good technique. Good luck with them ..... apparently one day they just 'click' ..... although my technique is better I still haven't had the CLICK! I can do them 'consecutively' badly but am still struggling when I try to do them 'properly' .... unfortunately she isn't interested that I can get from one 3 to the other without putting my foot down, she won't be satisfied until they're nearly as good as her kids!!!!!

FRIDAY

Got in at 7am for lesson ..... didn't get lesson until 9.45!! Long story, won't go there!

Did Field Moves up to BO3's (which are better or, at least, feel better). Did some edges too, am 'reeducating' my body to do the FI's as the ones required for the Blues (need to rotate body WITH the turn) are different from the ones that I learned for my last Field Moves test (more control, less body involvement).

Did BI3's FASTER on a circle and didn't chicken out Did step sequence which worked better

Backspin is getting better but the 'better' is less consistent (does that make sense?). Whatever, I'm happier to have a better backspin as I can actually feel it spinning and am getting more rotations the consistency will come with practise [color=darkblue:89217d7839][i:89217d7839](won't it Lynne?)[/i:89217d7839][/color:89217d7839]. Unfortunately she's trying out a new entry to the backspin which throws me off Did a few scratch spins which were good and, oops, didn't try a camel today :?

Dance lesson was okay, did the 22 step for almost the first time in about a month (last time was an unmitigated disaster because I didn't feel stable on my blades). It was okay but I've forgotten a lot INCLUDING the cross behind before the last mohawk!!! For some unknown reason I was bringing my feet side by side before turning the mohawk ....... weird!

European was fine, managed to correct one thing only to cause something else to go wrong! Nothing major but little picky bits which will, no doubt, keep cropping up now the dance is flowing well.

I haven't done the Blues for a looooong time but it wasn't too bad APART from coach trying to go into the European on the first go :?

No offence to anyone of school age out there but I can't wait for everyone to go back to school! NOT because you guys are bad BUT because a skater who usually skates later in the morning has started coming onto the early patch and is a nightmare! This is the same one that has been an obstacle course in my (and other people's) programmes all week, this morning the little cherub collided with a girl doing her programme to music (ie had priority), the girl had a pretty nasty fall only for the cherub to stand over her, hands on hips, giving her a mouthful of abuse!!! I had it on videotape but can only tell what she was saying because I KNEW what she had said!

Oh well ......... it's the Solo Dance Championships this weekend and lots of my skating friends are taking part. I can't go to support them, wish I could. Are any of you doing the Championships this year? GOOD LUCK if you are

L x

__________________

The best whisper is a click

Nutty-ducky: about your FO3s. When I was learning them (at the same time as backward crossovers), when I practiced and was doing laps (which included practicing other stroking things, like cross rolls and edges etc), every single time I got to a specific corner I stopped, did two FO3s on each foot and a semi circle of backward crossovers in each direction, then went off again. Because I did it every time I got to that corner, I wasn't stuck in one place practicing the same thing over and over (which can get very boring and frustrating), and I also got in a lot of practice on it. It's worth trying.
About the consistency - each time you do it, make sure you're using your upper body/arms correctly, your free leg (don't let it swing around or dangle, keep it close to your skating leg), and also make sure you lift your heel on the turn. Often when people have problems with the 3 turns, it's just a case of forgetting about one little detail and as soon as they remember it, they're fine. Also don't forget the knee bend. It's hard to remember everything every time, but with practice you just do them naturally. Practice practice practice! Hope that helps.

__________________
"It’s never too late to skate at any age." - Alexei Mishin.

After a pretty good practice on Tuesday and lesson yesterday (esp. re double sals -- see my other double thread), today was pretty rotten.

My thigh had been aching after yesterday's lesson, I think mainly from saving some twisted axel landings, and today it had the same problem as soon as I started jumping. Worked my way up to the loop and then gave up as it hurt to land and I couldn't get much spring or control, knew it would be pointless to try to fix my bad habits on the lutz and flip or to try to land any axels or double sals. So I did some more work on spins and three turns, but even with those I felt too stiff to make much progress and left at the end of the first session even though the second one was already paid for. :-(

Hopefully my leg will be refreshed and ready to go on Tuesday after a restful weekend.

icenut84 - thanks for the advice too. i don't know when the next time i will go ice skating is, but as soon as i get back onto the ice will practice the 3-turns and use your advice.

Post deleted - I pressed the wrong button and quoted the wrong person! It will take me a while to get used to this, I'm afraid, being a slow learner.

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!