Hi all - I have been struggling with learning FO 3-turns for the last few weeks, and have a real mental block. So with all you wonderful, experienced skaters here, I thought I would ask for help and advice I am on Skate UK Level 6, and have actually passed everything else on the level, bar the 3-turns, so it is actually stopping me moving up as well.

I do the first "lobe" of the 3-turn, turn my shoulders and ribs into the circle, take my arms across my body and look towards the direction that I want to turn. I turn and then . . . . . that's it, I just stop. I don't move backward and it seems I can't get my weight centred as I just fall towards my free foot. It is like beating my head against a brick wall

So, if any of you lovely people have any tips or hints, they would seriously be gratefully received. I am going to end up stamping my foot through the ice soon in a strop!!

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Amanda

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance . . . "

My Skating Journal

I shared your frustration, so sympathise. For me, 3 turns represented the most challenging single element in the whole LTS programme, and took several weeks before I could manage them with any degree of consistency (4 weeks for my first successful one). If you are falling forwards on the exit, perhaps your weight is too much over your toes, and you are 'locking' the movement? Remember it is only your skating foot which follows the 3 turn tracing, your body should remain on the general circle.

I tried to explain the principle to someone on the rink at the weekend, using an articulated lorry as a model. The lorry travels smoothly in a straight line (or a large circle). The lorry then turns sharply right (for RFO3). The cab turns, but the trailer doesn't want to follow and flips around, continuing on its orginal course, only now travelling backwards.

If this doesn't help, then please ignore it, I try and use novel perceptions to explain things.

Don't give up though, you are almost there ...

PS: not wonderful and experienced here, just doggedly tenacious because no one has told me I can't do it.

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UK Passport (figure)
Bronze : PASSED 13-Oct-07 Woohoo
Silver: PASSED 08-Dec-07 Yippee
Gold: Backspin PASSED One Foot Spin ____ Toe Loop ____ Programme ____
The impossible is just a journey away ...

My guess is that you're not checking your free hip/leg.

Before the turn, they ride the circle (as Derek said) BEHIND your skating leg.
During the turn, they stay locked behind as you turn the lower body.
After the turn, they stay behind (not to the side) and steer you onto the BI edge.

Make sure you bend the skating knee before and after the actual turn.

Tighten your abdominals and glutes (buttocks) after the turn to keep the free hip from opening up and dropping. I think that's making you fall - the hip's open and the free leg's dropping.


Derek - I like the lorry analogy. At first, I thought you were going for a "jack-knifed tractor-trailer" example. LOL

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But that's normal when you first start doing 3-turns, everybody does them like that to begin with! Suddenly one day you'll find you flow out of them, but don't worry about it. "Dance 3s" are done like that - you turn, and then almost immediately step down. The difference, of course, being that you step down in a controlled fashion, not because you must!

Try to keep your free foot as close as possible to your skating foot, so that when you put it down, you don't wide-step. That will enable you to get a good push on to the back outside edge.

But don't worry about it, it sounds as though you're doing everything right for now.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

practice in socks on the floor turning on the ball of your foot but not actually lifting your heel off the ground for more than less than a half an inch. And also, going into the 3-turn keep the free leg behind but then as you make the turn itself, keep your free foot right next to your skating foot, just not touching the ice, but right next to it.

Do you mean like standing with my feet together, but with the free foot just raised up an inch or so? So my feet are parallel?


Thank you to everyone who has replied so far, there is some really helpful things there.

I wonder if part of the problem is that I turn things out from the hips too much (years of ballet training). I know it is very useful for some things, but I am learning that when skating, you sometimes have to be able to "turn in" as well!


So people keep telling me! Just my frustrations I suppose - I have been doing these for about a month, and still don't feel much closer

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Amanda

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance . . . "

My Skating Journal

Many years ago, I worked as an engineer for a company making anti-skid braking systems for lorries. One day, the test driver took me onto the skid pan with a tractor-trailer set and did a perfect 3 turn at about 50 mph. Did I wet my pants or what !

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UK Passport (figure)
Bronze : PASSED 13-Oct-07 Woohoo
Silver: PASSED 08-Dec-07 Yippee
Gold: Backspin PASSED One Foot Spin ____ Toe Loop ____ Programme ____
The impossible is just a journey away ...

Yeah. If you go swinging your leg around or to the sides in a 3-turn, you end up with an uncontrolled edge and balance, keeping the feet togehter looks tighter and feels more controlled and at our club they're actually teaching the 3-turns that way so it can't be technically very wrong I'm thinking

Also, try not to lean too much into the 3-turn. The edge shouldn't come from bringing your balance point far left of the left foot skate (that you're gliding on), it comes from sort of pushing into the ice I think... I'm not sure. At least my balance point is like right over my skating foot and right over the turn, I believe... I should try this out on ice with this in mind to be sure but that'll be friday.

My free foot instep is adjacent to my skating heel, at about 45 degrees, being the way I was shown. That is a natural position for me so feels comfortable, but I guess there are many variations on that posture.

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UK Passport (figure)
Bronze : PASSED 13-Oct-07 Woohoo
Silver: PASSED 08-Dec-07 Yippee
Gold: Backspin PASSED One Foot Spin ____ Toe Loop ____ Programme ____
The impossible is just a journey away ...

There does seem to be lots of variations, but I am getting the general idea is that the free foot is kept veeeerry close to the skating foot! I think I have been holding my foot maybe a little too high for hte time being (as in, above the top of my other boot).

By the way, I liked the lorry analogy too!

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Amanda

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance . . . "

My Skating Journal

I don't think the height of your free foot is a critical issue, I am guessing that it is normally close to the ice when learning, so poor stability is not alarming. Upon inspection, my foot is about the same height as yours, and from memory, the coaches blades were about in line with the bottom of the skating boot. What is important is that both legs/feet should move as one ...

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UK Passport (figure)
Bronze : PASSED 13-Oct-07 Woohoo
Silver: PASSED 08-Dec-07 Yippee
Gold: Backspin PASSED One Foot Spin ____ Toe Loop ____ Programme ____
The impossible is just a journey away ...

One thing to remember is on the forward edge/lobe, bend your skating knee as deeply as possible, for the turn rise up softly (my coach says like a marshmallow in your knee), this will help the turn, and for the back edge bend your knee again. Good luck!

That's how I feel on my LBI-3!
Lyle

I've not seen any posts about my particular/ peculiar 3 turn problems: This tool me years to figure out and it still isn't right - when I skate, I have a tendency to cantilever my body. That is, parts are forewards, parts are back, parts to the left, parts to the right. So the whole sum adds up to my weight being over my skating foot but my body is not lined up. If you think about a scratch spin - when you start everything is out to the side and you spin slowly; pull in and you spin fast- why? Well the same problem happens on 3 turns - if your chest is foreward and your rear and free leg are back you will ride very smoothly on the back of the blade and have a very stable glide which helps me with my spirals. But you can't 3 turn there, you must "collect all the pieces" and bring the arms, legs, chest all together and stand tall over your blade. Then the turn is much easier - remember less force to start the turn = less force to stop in the check.

Bottom line - spend some time just gliding on all 8 of your edges with the body lined up nice and tall and hips and shoulders open/ closed/ rotated together/ rotated in opposition. Now head up! This is the prep for the 3 turns and the prep for the rockers and the counters and Brackets and the exits positions as well. THis is suprisingly tough and one of our pros who still skates shows works on just this 15 min every day!
Lyle

As I told my first coach ages ago, "Honey, at my age I have WAY too many parts to keep track of them all!"

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Dianne
(A.O.S.S.? Got it BAD! )

Hmm, might be that you're getting onto your toepick at the middle of the 3-turn and that's what stops you. A great overall tip from my coach that's helped me with 3-turns along with everything else is to remember that your free leg steers. Meaning that if your free leg is out to the side or heading in the wrong direction, your skating leg is going to follow.

I don't think this is necessarily age related! Sometimes I feel like my head is going "Feet, knees, hips, arms, shoulders, head, abdominals in, bum tight, knees bent, head up . . . waaaaah!!"

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Amanda

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance . . . "

My Skating Journal

You also might need just more speed. If you turn insecurely, you'll slow down a lot, it's gotta be quick and sharp or else you'll skid all over the place.

Ah, skiddy turns....those would be my FI3s

Clare

I will admit, I do tend to slow right down before attempting the turn.

Maybe I should just throw myself at it and see what happens

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Amanda

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance . . . "

My Skating Journal

Well maybe try No speed - go to the boards and hang on so blade is parallel and body faces boards standing on one foot. Now rise up on sweet spot and do the 3 turn without moving the upper body. Coach tortures me with this "more knee" "Check" "head up" "stand tall" etc etc. After a while I have to move because I've generated enough shavings for snowcones for all.
Lyle

That sounds like a really good idea Lyle - I hadn't really thought of just trying the turning bit at the barrier. I have used the barrier, but still by going into it on an edge, and had found that it just got in the way.

I'm going to try that tonight!! Hopefully that way, I can see what it should feel like turning on the skating foot, while rotating etc.

Snowcones off the ice? Bleurgh!!!!

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Amanda

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance . . . "

My Skating Journal

You need some flow into the turn, but you can also pick up bad habits that may have to be unlearned later, if you learn the turn by just throwing yourself into it.

Remember, for an FO3, you're turning around the outside edge of a circle (the edge of that circle being what your blade is tracing).

It's very easy to drop your free side (i.e. your right side if doing an LFO3 and your left side if doing an RFO3) when you stroke onto the edge for the turn.

Here's a couple exercises that one of my coaches had me do for 3-turns.

1. At the barrier, hold onto the barrier and stand on one foot with that foot parallel to the barrier. Make sure the outside of the foot is closest to the barrier. Then, press your weight forwards on the foot towards the toepick and turn 180 degrees...you can be holding onto the barrier. As you get more comfortable with this, you can glide a bit into the drill, still holding onto the barrier. Don't forget to practice on both feet.

2. Straight-line 2-foot 3-turns. You can do these the length of the ice or the width of the ice. Stroke a bit to have a little speed and flow, then glide on 2 feet. Set up for an FO3 (i.e. right arm/shoulder in front for LFO3 etc). Do the turn. If you feel comfortable with the forward 2-foot turns, you can add in the backwards to front 2-foot turns and make a little sequence. You can also alternate directions (first turn to left, then turn to right, etc.)

3. Curved 2-foot 3-turns. Same as #2, only glide on 2 feet in an arc. Using the edge of a hockey circle or the goalie box circle can help. Or if the ice is empty enough, draw a big half-circle with a magic marker to use.

4. Glide on 2 feet on a curve or arc. Right before you reach the point at which you want to do the turn (that point is generally the top of the arc), lift the other foot (i.e. for turn to left, lift the right foot) as you prepare with shoulders/arms for the turn. Do the turn, then put foot back down and glide with 2 feet for awhile. As you feel more comfortable with the turn, pick up the free foot quicker and hold the entry edge on 1 foot longer.

Hope these help. 3-turns at speed are my biggest bugaboo (witness my signature)

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Ok, there have been LOTS of good ideas in here, so im going to make mine short and sweet, based on what Ive learnt, as a dance outside 3.

BEND your leading leg as you push off, ensuring your free leg hip is not dropped (this will help to ensure youre on your edge), as you prepare to turn, rotate shoulders, head and GENTLY rise up, bringing your free leg to either a T-position (behind skating foot) or parrallel/next to your skating foot (consciously lifting your free foot toes will help stop the toepicks digging in - or you worrying about it).. as you do this you should feel like you want to turn... if you gently rise onto your rocker (putting pressure on the ball of your foot and gently/slightly shifting weight to this point), and allow it to happen, your hips will just turn naturally, with your foot following with no swing of your shoulders or arms. BEND again as you finish the turn, again to keep you on the edge, and in my way, place free foot next to leading leg on ice, and swap feet, pushing with initial leading leg/foot. To complete a semi circle you should swap feet onto an inside edge.

Also, as a dancer you may find the notion of leading with your hips (rather than your shoulders) a useful concept as well..

A good exercise is doing the above instructions until the point where you feel like you want to turn (rising up), but not.. just get to that point and understand what it feels like..

I hope that helps..

Just keep persisting.. I 'got' my 3 turns in one very frustrating but determined day (about 4hours), and Ive only just starting to perfect them, and it sounds SO lovely when they make no sound.. no scratching, no throwing body around, and they are so EASY.. now to keep practising to get it everytime

PS. So much for short and sweet

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-Erinna-
aka cassarilda

My Progress Report!
"Did I mention there is only ONE rink in Melbourne?!"
"If you're not flying, you're obviously not trying!!!" - courtsey of the guy who helped me up off the ice after my last spectacular and sore fall

I think there is a chance that you are messing up your bodyweight by the action of looking too far round. This will make you drop your free (non-skating) shoulder, which will make you fall out of the turn. I had this problem hugely for a couple of years. DON'T DROP YOUR FREE SHOULDER OR HIP. And don't look too far round - try just looking forward (or slightly round from forward), but feeling your bodyweight on the skating foot, with your shoulders relaxed and even. And feel your hips under you (they mustn't stick out, hip must be over skate)

I remember in my KTS skate class (as an adult), our collective jaws dropped when one participant managed to do a 3 turn at first attempt. However it took me about 3 months of pushing myself along the barrier, round and round the rink, to get an acceptable LTS test-passing 3 turn. It then took about another 6 months to get a reasonable quality 3 turn without a lot of cross-body tensions, and about 3 years in all to get a dance-quality 3 turn. Then about another 2 years to get dance-quality back-3s.

I think at this stage you need to focus on:
(a) down-up-down knee action (down with knees bent as you approach the turn, up with knees straighter but not locked as you do the turn, sink down again after the turn. Also, be aware of the rocking action of the skate blade. You start with weight on your heels. As you rise, your weight rocks forward on the blade up almost to the toe rake, and then rocks back again to the sole of the foot as you go backwards.
(b) keeping knots out of your body (shoulders must be same height, rib cage and shoulders move as a unit);
(c) getting some edge into the 3 turn.

Three turns are always done on a curve (although sometimes quite a flat one). So find the very small hockey circle (at the middle of the end of the rink) and practise on that. Start with two-footed turns, to get a feeling for down-up-down, and speed coming out of the turn.

If you can't get much speed up, go to the barrrier and push yourself along the barrier. Try this - face the barrier, palms down on top. Then try some two-footed turns, without moving your upper body. You should be able to face the barrier, and do the entire three turn by using hips, knees and down-up-down action (ie. without displacing your upper body).

Once you've got a good feel for two-feet, you can try on one foot, rising up into the T-position for the turn.