Just a reminder to keep the discussion going without insulting or attacking others. If you can't agree, just disagree in an agreeable way. The Ignore feature is available if needed to keep your temper (and fingers) in check.

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Surely as adults we are free to make our own choices. He who pays the piper calls the tune and all that.

If your goal is testing and competitions then obviously it pays to learn things to the standard that will be called - particularly difficult now under IJS where jumps that have passed the relevant tests and been marked as such in competition now seem to be 'not good enough' - or at least that's what happened to many UK adults this year at the IJS championships.

But if you aren't interested in doing competitions but want to jump and do doubles and don't much care about the niceties then that's a valid choice too and for those who don't like to see jumps with bad technique you can think of them as useful pointers in what to avoid and be happy in the knowledge that in competition the better technique will win out.

Not sure why every one gets so heated about this - aren't we adults who can make our own choices?

My personal preference is probably for good technique since I do want to compete and age and physical limitations mean I'm finding it hard going to get a lutz, let alone an axel (although I have attempted doubles in a camp alongside the kids! but if some people want to chuck themselves about who am I to stop them

Back on topic: there are two approaches to learning/training for skaters of ANY age.

Some skaters, especially adults, want to do everything as perfect as possible while they're learning. Every movement and check takes time to perfect, but once the jump, spin or other element is learned, it's solid and looks correct from the first successful completion.

The other way is to force elements with minimal finesse. The forceful skater uses speed and strength to complete the elements. While they appear to be doing the actual element, the checks, edging and full position/rotation isn't always there.

Speaking from experience, it takes just as much (and perhaps more) time to correct the errors that result from learning through brute force. Other elements also suffer, which is why many skaters get "stuck" on higher-level skills - the foundation core just isn't there.

There's another affect: the "forced element" skater really believes that s/he can "land a double loop" or "do a layback." but their rinkmates often think to themselves that the skater is delusional because the element is cheated and incorrect. To the other skaters and to judges, a cheated, sloppy element doesn't count. Others' opinions matter more to some people than others, so it is again, your choice to make as a skater.

It's up to each person to decide where they want to spend their time learning, or even if they want to learn elements properly. There's always some skating school that will hand out badges for poor element execution. However, the USFSA judges are much more strict.

I've learned (the hard way) that starting out slow and correct is easier than forcing and relearning. I've seen it in myself, fellow skaters, and in my students. The tortoise really does win the race in the end if your goals include having other people watch you skate. YMMV, though.

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It is interesting that you mention that there are two approaches but then espose one approach and kind of dis the other.....

I would argue that too much emphasis on "perfection" limits many skaters and puts them in a "safe" zone so they don't have to try items they are "afraid" of or have taken a few "bad" falls on....

No item is "perfect" when the skater starts to work on it. (Not even Plushinkos triples. There is a video of him on youtube as a child. Triples with curly, tight landings. He was, like, nine. But you get the picture.) You have to start somewhere....

Well, if the jump takes off from a back outside edge and lands on a back outside edge and does rotates 2 revs, (OK on ice this gets "weird" because you tend to use your pick to hook the jump, so it's really, like 1 and 3/4 rotation, but you get what I mean), then they DID do a 2 loop. Maybe other skaters/judges would like to see it higher or faster or....whatever...but it IS a 2 loop. Same for the layback. As long as the head is level to the shoulders, then it is a layback. Maybe other skaters/judges would like to see more backbend or a better leg position or.....whatever....But it is still a layback... What I'm getting at is the point at where an item is so "bad" that it is not acceptable is relative. It is relative in general (against the book), and it is also relative to your competitiors (if you in a competition)....

The OP asked for opinions and that is my opinion based on my experience.

I actually care what other people think about my skating now, much more than I did when I was a young adult. I didn't like being outskated, so I cleaned up my technique. Okay, my very-German skating coach MADE me clean up my act and I am forever grateful to her for that strictness because it made me a much better skater and competitor.

As I said to the OP, your mileage may vary. Everyone has to make their own choices with their coaches' input.

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I don't think she was dissing it as you put it. That's not how I read it at all. Plus I don't think anyone is saying things have to be 'perfect' since that's pretty unattainable anyway.

The difference is between rushing into things because you are keen to do them even if they don't look as good, as compared to someone who wants the elements to look as good as they can get them. The first is a valid approach if you are not too bothered about competing where the inbetweens and basic skating and good positions etc are part of the judging system.

If you go that route and want to compete then you have to go back and tidy up what you have, which as many people have pointed out often ends up being harder than taking a bit more time to learn it properly in the first place. But if what you want out of skating is the excitement of jumping then that's great as long as you appreciate that it won't be scored as highly (should you decide to compete) as the same element done better.

And if you aren't competing then it shouldn't matter what other people think of your jumps. If you do care about what they think then it pays to try to do it as well as possible with good technique and that will impress them more than one with sloppy technique

Competitive skaters tend to consider you can only really claim to have an element if it is of a standard that would pass the relevant test. In general if your jumps would pass the tests on that jump then yes you have that element. (Even though I have seen under rotated jumps pass and conversely pretty darn good ones fail!). The levels don't just include jumps though so to get the tests you also need to have the footwork and spins etc. which means if you only want to jump you can't take the tests and you have no way of knowing whether they'd pass or not.

The rules on jumps under IJS are really tough though so if you want to compete under IJS the jumps have to be very good technically - even the singles or they are simply not even counted.

To the OP: it sounds like maybe you don't have the best fit with your coach and you might be better off with a freestyle coach rather than a dance one (or have both!) and be sure to let them know what you you want out of your skating. Nothing to stop you asking to learn the jumps faster while continuing to do the footwork and stuff.

Yup! That's me as of now. Am redoing BASICS (you guys read A LOT from me about working on crossovers, right?) No fun losing my flips and lutzes in the process, but then again, they probably weren't all that great in the first place if a couple of judges thought they were either toe loops or loop jumps... so...

Other case in point...Adult Silver Move... have to work on basic EDGES a LOT to get to the point where I can get those pesky 3turns in the field. It's what I get for working with one coach that is a edge/footwork specialty and another that has a figures background.

To the OP... it sounds like you got a dance coach... Am I correct? (I'm asking b/c my secondary coach is VERY detailed and concise, but all her students are FS students. She does have a dance background which is why she's VERY detailed and concise.)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

To the OP:

My recommendation to you would be to try to scope out a "jump coach." One that you can just jump with, and save the basics for another coach. Yes strong basic skating is very important. But I also feel where you are coming from with the "not getting any younger." I seriously have nightmares about what I am going to do when I can't pound jumps for hours anymore. I agree with your opinion that it seems like the jumps are most limited by age. So I say definitely go for it and try to achieve all you can jump wise. Just don't neglect those other skills. As others have pointed out, it will catch up with you. But if you have enough time and energy, I simply don't see why you can't excel in both area. But I think it would be helpful to have another coach, or even an extra lesson a week with your current coach, but let them know that you really want this extra time to be dedicated to jumping only. Sometimes I think coaches and skaters can both become overwhelmed in a lesson because lets face it, there are alway a zillion things to work on and improve upon. Perhaps it is just a matter of separating the time a bit better.

As for some of the other posts...I am torn. I am one of those skaters who loves to jump, and hates being told to work on my basic skating. But I work on both. I learned the hard way that YES!!!! those three turns, mohawks, and everything else really do count.

I agree with pushing yourself. Especially for myself, I learn by making mistakes. So sometimes it is helpful for me to actually work on something long before it is perfect, because that is how I learn to correct myself. It is actually much more beneficial to me than hearing corrections, I have to feel them. And I am also guilty of attempting certain skills before I am actually ready for them. But that is my own choice.

I am also one of those people who absolutely HATES it when I see children or adults doing under rotated jumps or sloppy spins and claiming that they "have" a skill. Drives me bonkers. In my opinion you "have" a skill when it is largely consistent and done properly.

Are my skills perfect? Absolutely not. Yes, of course I want to accomplish all that I possibly can. But in my opinion there really is no excuse for improper technique. To me it's like comparing the kid in school that works hard and gets "As" to the kid that does the bare minimum and gets "Cs." I like my As. I'm not afraid to work hard for it. But in the end I think the result is the same. The child or adult who works hard and does things properly, is the "better" skater (just in my opinion!). Everything looks polished. But at the same time, of course it's really fun to be able to have a great skill they can show off.

We all skate for ourselves. So I agree with the other postings that give the messages of "well if you are happy with your skating..."

But at the same time, imagine what the sport would be like without the artistry? Imagine what it would be like if you no longer saw the polished performances where you know that every single movement was so close to perfect that it was absolutely awe inspiring and brought tears to your eyes. Those are things that you simply cannot rush through, and things that are very rare in children and adults.

In the end that is what I want to strive for - the entire package. It isn't enough for me to just have jumps or spins, I want it ALL!!! But hey...that's just me.

Sorry for the tangent.

OP you can do both!! Just because you want to advance your jumps quicker doesn't mean you have to neglect the other portions. Perhaps you just need more ice time to get everything in!

A skater can have enough air time, but not have a correct or tight enough spinning position (wrapping, opening up, etc) which is why the after-landing spinning then gets added to the jump. Plus, you have to start learning a jump somewhere, often it's with drills like that.

Kinda suspicious about the skater already having all her doubles and having them like that though.


You didn't, I did when I said doing waltz jumps with no concept of edge was pushing it too far... Are we still talking about the same thing? I'm confuzzled.

Not really... Until skaters start trying for a loop or a flip or so their toeloops and salchows tend to basically be nothing more than steps anyway, how much weight awareness transfer is needed for a mohawk? With the elements for the F diploma mastered (at least at my skating rink) all of the singles come into focus and then suddenly skaters start having to take off for their jumps and then weight transfer becomes an issue. But a sort of stepped waltz jump, meh, happens all the time at first. At least, at my club. I think it's mostly just an issue of getting people to sort of, do *something* and then height and technique can be added later. People at first tend to be like glued to the ice with fear of flying.

Agreed! In a world where people all had the same learning style and weren't getting any older, I would definitely recommend getting your edges and turns solid before jumping. But each of us has a different personality and learning style and we are also getting a little older every year. I probably would have gotten really bored if I hadn't been allowed to jump until everything else was perfect. I also know that I am more afraid (and rightfully so) of learning new jumps In my 40's than I was in my 20's and 30's, so I am glad my coach allowed me to work on any jump I wanted back then, even though my skating skills weren't as good as they are now. Sure, I had to go back and re-learn my toeloop takeoff and I also had to re-work my double salchow, but at least I wasn't afraid of them.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

As a new adult skater my lst coach was all about the fun stuff. I did have fun playing. =-) It's crazy but she had my trying axels after 3 months. =-0 I really had no idea... After about 6 months I started to notice the skaters around me and knew this wasn't right. I tried to find a coach who could help me with technique and moves. After trial and error I found someone I feel comfortable with and who does work with me on moves and technique. She also seems to understand my desire to try things. Like mentioned, adults are aware of a limited time for jumps. Moves with good technique makes quality jumps and spins. After a certain level is accomplished I do think it's okay to try jumps and spins. If you wait until your perfect, especially as an adult, you may never get to try. It doesn't mean that you stop practicing moves to make them as good as possible. Skating is a journey to always make things better. =-) I did find that "relearning" skating after playing was HARD. It's much better to build a good foundation 1st! Yes, I was very lucky that I didn't kill myself!

teresa

I am a fan of slow and steady wins the race...that is what I tell my kids and that what I believe works. I have seen kids get jumps and spins like that, but that 2 toe is about 2 inches off the ice and then when the kids grows, they lose the jump because they can't just whip around any more, then they get frustrated and they quit. But, if you spend the time working on something and not rush it, you will be able to compensate, and yes, you may lose it, but you will also have a good foundation to get it back.

Yes, adults are different. They are not growing, and yes, time is limited in a sense. But each skills builds on each other. I do not think you need to wait until one things is perfected before starting another. If I had done that, I would still be working on a lutz jump (some days it's pitiful - always has been even as a kid), and yes, my axel is still cheated on a good day, but my 2 sal is huge (and while not completely clean, it's closer than the axel), and my 2 toe is getting closer to being on 1 foot. All 3 of those use similar take offs so it is all working together. But - if I did not have a good waltz jump or a good back spin or good edges, I could kiss all of those goodbye.

But that is just my opinion.

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Skating Dreams

"All your life you are told the things you cannot do. All your life they will say you're not good enough or strong enough or talented enough; they will say you're the wrong height or the wrong weight or the wrong type to play this or be this or achieve this. THEY WILL TELL YOU NO, a thousand times no, until all the no's become meaningless. All your life they will tell you no, quite firmly and very quickly. AND YOU WILL TELL THEM YES." --Nike

It's probablly a bad habit that the skater was allowed to train, and never corrected. Sometimes she'll land on her toe pick and stay up there for like half a second.

You can imagine how much speed she has coming out of her jumps because of that.

Her singles, however, are quite nice. She should probably be told to flex her landing food in the air a little, instead of pointing it like a gymnast.

The weight transfer is actually relevant for all toe jumps. The reason I say this is I'm fixing my flip and lutz now... and the weight transfer thing is the problem. (I have to learn to pole vault into a spin in the air!?!!?!? And land cleanly to a nice BO edge glide too??? ) Needless to say, the toe loop is NOT my best jump for a reason...

Okay, this other topic about bad jump technique has been talked about ad nauseum here and we're...



Can we agree to disagree



and go on with our lives?

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

you haven't found a champagne emoticon yet Joanna?

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Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

Wow, I never knew that this post would cause so much debate! It's been really interesting to get everyone's feedback. Thank you

I've been taking lessons for 2 months but started as a recreational skater with reasonable stroking and crossovers, messy forward 3s in one direction only (and bizarrely, a high, wide but hella ugly toe loop). I'm aware of the need to be patient in case my post sounds otherwise - it was a combination of looking ahead and a whiny post after a bad skate, in which I almost dislocated my knee and fell on EVERYTHING I've taken a step back over the past couple of days and feel a bit better.

Yes, my coach is a dance coach but I actually chose him because I saw one of his adult pupils land beautiful axels and doubles,so I definitely don't doubt his competence to teach freestyle. I'm only working on waltz, sal and toe right now, so not sure that a separate jump coach isnecessary (nor would know who to go to at my rink - I'm UK based and the focus is on dance, only 2 coaches have people I know are landing doubles) - but definitely bearing the idea in mind for the future so thanks to those who suggested

Oh, I HAVE!!!

There's this:


And then there's this:


and this...


And of course, what happens AFTER drinking the champagne:

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I think I like the bubbles in the flute glass best.

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Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

Hi

It is always important to get the basics correct before attempting any jump. When I first learnt skating over 10 years ago, the coach just rushed me through all the jumps from waltz up till toe loop, and then rushed me through one foot spin, not aware that my leg crossing position was not even correct, in that there was an extra step before I crossed. So I later on changed coach, and that coach spent ages to correct those wrong moves/bad habits.

Since 1 year ago, I am picking up skating again after 4 non-skate years due to work commitment. Now that I have a private coach in my home country (Singapore), she is very strict in making sure that my landing position is correct (I have tendency to have bent knees), then my jump (such as loop jump) is not rushed. She will have me do edges work on every lesson too. She rather that I move up the level slowly than rushed me through, as that would be better for me in the long run.

And yes, it sucks to correct the bad habits of years of lousy skating.

I have seen a man over his 60s in my home country rink, and he does huge jumps, though the posture is not great and there is almost non-existence of landing position. He also views himself as the only elegant skater in the ice rink, and often jumps without looking whether another skater (either small kids, children or adults) are behind him or not.

londonicechamp