Slightly changing the subject, but I am working on Silver moves now. What has been the experience of others with the cross-strokes move, which is in pre-juvenile as well as silver? I have not tested silver yet, but several younger skaters in our club, in testing pre-juv, got dinged for doing more of a cross-step than a cross-stroke. This is kind of the same distinction as the beginning of a forward progressive versus the beginning of a forward cross-over.

What jenlyon60 said... (i.e. the part about sliding vs. actually stepping over...)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

That's still a back crossover--just a more advanced one. Have a dancer show you back progressives sometime--completely different; there's no crossing of the feet at all.

I am gonna take back my comment on back progressives... just so I don't confuse anyone else... (I plead my ignorance on ice dancing!!! I know NOTHING about it!!!)

From my test results, I think they were expecting progressive-style forward crossovers.

Yeap! This is why I made the comment about "power" vs. "continuous strength and flow." You are STILL expected to train as if you are working on a power move (i.e. you STILL must work on the correct TECHNIQUE -- and SPEED is the end result of the correct technique!)

So I'm going back now to work on better crossovers now, rather than how fast I'm going. I figured that the speed will come along for the ride eventually...

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

>>So I'm going back now to work on better crossovers now, rather than how fast I'm going. I figured that the speed will come along for the ride eventually...

I think that you are right. You have got a great attitude about all of this & are so willing to listen to everyone's advice. I'm sure you'll pass the test soon, given how hard you're willing to work on it!

Did you do the landing position move (alt BO edge glides) in 4 lobes or 5 on each side? I remember some of the kids testing Prelim MIF at a recent test session I watched got marked a tenth above on this move, but they all did it in 4 lobes instead of the usual 5. I was just curious.

I think I'm in big trouble. I just practiced for 2 hours this afternoon and can't get off my toepicks in back crossovers! I tried leaning back, putting my weight toward the heel, everything! And I'm pushing off with my toe on the BI to FO step in the power 3's on the right side.

On the plus side, another coach who was there told me my forward crossover stroking move was looking better than before (I wonder how bad it was before - lol). I'm really trying hard to push under more instead of stepping over - per my coach's orders.

About the progressives thing - I'm not familiar with the term (sorry, I don't do dance) but it sounds like a progressive (at least a forward one) is a crossover where there is a lot of push under and less crossing over. Am I right?

I'm working on Bronze Moves right now, so thanks for the enlightening and interesting thread about test experiences. I know I will read it again even more carefully.

I think part of it is the judging panel. I've seen skaters who are not that fast or that powerful and they have passed bronze moves. So it depends on the judges you get.

I had a mini-breakthrough today in my lesson regarding Power 3s. Try this: when you are balanced on the BI after the turn and ready to shift weight and push, think of "flicking" your leg. Of course, you still use the big leg muscles, but try and remember to follow through all the way to the ankle and "flick the leg" forward. This has REALLY helped me. Before I was usually on a slight outside edge rather than inside, and at best, a flat. Today, I was on flat to inside once I got the "flick" down. Now I just need to worry about developing the back crossover more.

Actually it's 2 pushes. One with each foot... that is one strong push onto the FO edge of the new skating foot, then instead of doing the "pick me up and over", place the "to be" skating foot ahead and almost in front of the current skating foot. As the new skating foot contacts the ice, your weight should still be on the old skating foot and you push under and through with it. Then pick it up and place it beside the current skating foot.

The official ISU/USFS definition of a progressive (from last year's rule book) reads "A step of sequence of steps on the same lobe and in the same direction in which the free foot, during the period of becoming the skating foot, strikes the ice beside and travels past the skating foot, thus bringing the new free foot off the ice trailing the new skating foot, and in such a manner that some impetus is gained from the edge of the foot which is becoming the free foot"

Once you get used to doing them, dance-style forward progressives (or forward runs for our UK skaters) are actually much easier and much more comfortable than the "pick me up and over" crossovers, IMO. You also get a smoother weight transition and power/flow generation.

One of my coaches had me do something similar to the "pick me up and over" crossovers a few months ago and it felt really really awkward and trippy.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

I did 5 on each side (following whatever pattern is on the USFSA rulebook diagram.) I really doubt that has anything to do with whether I passed or not in this case. (I definitely would have gotten comments from both my coaches AND the judges if that were the case.)

Are you sitting on your edge? (As in your back is straight but your knees are deeply bent at the same time?) It's also possible that you need to hold your BI edge just a bit longer before you step on the FO edge. I found that helps a bit!!! Also turn out your torso out a bit more.

Well, now you have added incentives besides following your coach's order!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Today, I practiced my Bronze moves with all the comments Jazzpants got in mind and managed to get some power out of my RFO power threes!
I did print Jazz's notes to show to Coach tomorrow and I have a feeling she'll be saying "Terri, this is what I've been telling you all along!"
Stay tuned!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

The cross strokes are actually from the Juvenile test (not Pre-Juv) and the to be skating foot should strike the ice before the cross part and slide over. On the slide over part, to be done textbook fashion, BOTH skates should be on an outside edge. Clear as mud?

Yes, that's what i thought, which is why JP's original comment had confused me. And yes, I know about the difference between picking your foot up and sliding it across in back xovers, and I haven't done the pick-up-your-foot method in years. I just got confused.

So, anyway, Jazzpants, congrats on trying and for your great attitude afterwards! (And especially putting upt with all these questions!)

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August 22, back on the ice!

That is so not what I have been taught. There is no slide over on either the F or the B cross strokes in Juvenile. I do not think it is possible to be, for example, on a LFO edge and place your R foot onto the ice not crossed over and slide it over if you are doing a RFO edge. Think about it, the arcs of your two feet diverge. Here is what I was taught: The new foot takes the ice on a FO edge crossed over the skating foot at as close to 90' to the long axis as possible. During the push, from the FO edge of the old skating foot, you will be slightly pigeon toed and will have to straighten out your foot to get a properly pointed toe and extension.

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So a forward progressive is just a non-steppy-over forward crossover? (The 'advanced' crossover with the pretty dance-like quality?)

And how do you do a back crossover without picking up your 'inside' foot (the one riding the BO edge, the 'back foot'.) Or did you mean the front foot doesn't get picked up? (Does anyone actually pick up the front foot on back crossovers?)

Picking up the crossing foot on B crossovers is a matter of style. Most Russians and some other elite skaters do them that way, but you have to watch carefully to see the foot come up and down a tiny bit just as it crosses. ISI teaches them that way and requires that technique for the earliest test with B crossovers. I hate doing B crossovers that way, preferring to think of them as pull unders.

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I'm soooo confused....

1. re. fwd. progressive: Pretty much. Imagine your are going in a circle counter-clockwise. After the push onto the left foot, the right foot strikes the ice on an inside edge, next to & slightly in front of the left foot (which is on an outside edge). But not crossed yet. In other words, if you're looking at your feet while you do this, the right foot strikes at about the "1 o'clock" spot. You have to be on deeply bent knees for this to work. Then the right foot crosses in front of the left foot while still on the ice, as the left foot pushes under to the crossed through position. So if you're doing this in slow motion, both feet are on the ice briefly as they pass each other in the crossing moment. Don't know if that makes sense!

2. Re. back crossovers--it's the outside foot that doesn't lift (The one on an inside edge).

3. The way a dancer does a fwd cross stroke is the same start as the progressive--the foot strikes, uncrossed, on an inside edge. The difference is that as it slides in front of the other foot, it changes over to an outside edge. In my area, that is how the judges want the juvenile cross strokes skated. And it's how a cross stroke would be skated in a compulsory dance (they show up quite often).

Try flexing your foot more and push through your heel, and like someone else mentioned, really bend deep and get on your edges-see if that helps.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

My coach just came back from a PSA seminar with judges on the MIF's, and he's told me to do exactly what Techskater's described for the cross strokes on the Novice moves (I didn't do the lower test, so I have to learn the cross strokes as well as the counter pattern). The judges said that is something they are really looking for.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

This is how I was taught to do cross-strokes, as well.

The idea is that your free foot is turned in as it comes across the skating foot - you don't pick up the free foot and clonk it down across the skating foot, it's more in front of. Same with a back cross-roll, you don't cross you feet and plonk, you turn your foot out and pass it behind. I don't cross mine enough backwards yet, but that's mostly a matter of flow rather than of position.

As for the difference between a forward progressive run and a forward crossover, my first coach used to say that the difference was "about two inches", in the position where your inside-edge foot went. My present coach says "it's a cross-under rather than a crossover".

I have lots of them in my practice at the moment, mostly one two-beat one followed by one one-beat one, which is hard, but I'm getting well good edges on them!!!! It's working really well, but I have a feeling I'm not "crossing under" enough to suit my coach yet.

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

That makes sense, although I have trouble imagining the Paso Doble done that way because of the tempo.

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That would be why the Paso is a pre-gold level dance! Those are the hardest steps for most girls, & if you watch someone working on it who's new to the dance, that will probably be the spot they either bail out or lose the timing (my specialty).

The cross steps in that spot are still done the same with the foot/blade technique, but the leg/knee action is different, and you have to stay really pigeon toed all the way through. And if you lean forward the teensiest little bit, all is lost & it's over!

I tried them today, and yup - there is a brief inside edge before the switch to outside.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I guess what I wanted to express the other day when I posted here was:

If you concentrate on ABSOLUTE correct edges...everything else will fall in place. Your edge is the foundation...if it is right you will naturally have flo, speed, power, posture, extension...It doesnt matter(IMHO) what the judges are looking for.

This is what my coach has stessed with me and so far I am 3-0 for my first three tests. (Probably justed jinxed myself for the Bronze free but oh well..this will make me work that much harder!)

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