A couple cents to add onto stardust's excellent post:

Every sport involves drudge work. I used to fence competitively, and the people who do well are not the ones that just throw themselves out there, but the ones that practice the basic advance-retreat footwork ad nauseam. We used to practice defensive drills up against the wall; you had one retreat to defend yourself. We used to practice sword-tip control ad nauseam. Can you hit a postage stamp on the wall? Being a top athlete is really boring as hell.

My sister is training for a marathon. This takes lots of preparation and daily drudge runs. Even if you're talented, you'd be a fool to show up and just run 26 miles.

I have not been skating very long (about a year with a coach), and I don't have lots of tricks yet - waltz jump, toe loop, one-foot spin. But my coach's mindset is that the basics come first, and you know what? I should get a video of myself up here, but my basic stroking skills are way ahead of my jump level. (Motivating part of the reason for me to pursue dance.) A girl I skate with has mentioned that I have stronger edges than some of the girls she used to compete Novice against.

Doing fundamentals isn't a sign of weakness. It's a sign of discipline.

A young man at my rink is attempting triples. He throws himself into the air, muscles through it (no snap to his rotation), and falls about every time. His basic skating is awful; I've nearly got a faster scratch spin. And most of us think he's great, a fun guy, but we really wish he'd go back and perfect his doubles.

I wanted to add my insight into the mix because I have gone through what Kevin is going through...

I learned how to go forwards and backwards and do basic edges and 3 turns - but just enough to get by. THEN I started working on jumps and spins and I progressed all the way through the lutz and was starting on a camel and layback. But you know what? My basic skating stinks - see my videos for evidence. And because my basic skating stinks - I found I was hitting a wall when it came to all of my jumps and spins - out of control 3 turns, ugly crossovers into a waltz jump, poor entry into a spin etc. SO - I decided to start testing moves in the field so that I would force myself to work on the basics. And ever since I started working on the basics my other skating has improved - I mean, I'm far from anything good but I'm already far better than I was.

So the moral of the story is that no matter how talented you are your natural abilities will only take you so far. Moves are SO important to becoming a great skater, and I'm learning that it takes a LOT of time to "get it right".

On the spins though - definitely start working on them as soon as you can, at least a two foot. Spins took me a lot longer to "get" than jumps so starting on them earlier rather than later might be a good idea for you too.

I would agree w/ what the others have said, the basics are key and while I am sure you are aware of it...you have to pass the field moves first. There is an expectation of a certain quality level for these moves, you need to be smooth and solid on your edges. Your salchow shows that you need work on your 3 turn and I recall that you once claimed to have landed an axel without any instruction at all.

While I understand you are still just beginning and are a former hockey player you might want to focus on posture, extension, being solid and secure in your edges. Since we are lucky enough to be in an olympic year you might really want to watch the ice dancers and see what edge quality is...you might really want to understand that the steps in between mean a lot, it's no longer about the jumps but about the balance of all those elements (jumps, spins, footwork, transitions, edge quality). You have said you would like to skate at the gold level in a few years, like 1 year which...would be very difficult...4 years maybe, hockey will not prepare you for moves, jumping or spinning.

Good luck with your endeavors....

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Who me? Couldn't be....
http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r

I do kind of feel like you're all ganging up on me. So if I sound testy, it is frustration from being misunderstood, not from disagreeing or being defensive.

Yet, I think said "ganging up" is unwarranted. Not because you're wrong, but because you're assuming that I think you're wrong. I don't. I think you're exactly right, and I've prefaced every reply with that. You're also assuming that I don't think of the basics as A) hard or B) necessary. I consider them both. Especially if I attempt them slow and steady. You would not be surprised, I am sure, at how quickly my basics disappear if I slow absolutely everything down. It is not something I am unaware of, and it is not something my coaches are unaware of either. I have been told by more than one coach that I am the only skater they have had to tell to slow down or to be less powerful.

What I'm trying to say here is that you're preaching to the choir, and it seems many of you are unaware of this. I know what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm just not doing it. I'm not doing it because I am in a hurry. In some ways, that's definitely hurting me, and I think you've all expounded on why that is. It is, however, not new information to me, with a few exceptions, and I'll address those specific comments. But in some ways, it is helping me. It helped get off my butt in the first place. It helps get me to practice at least two hours a day, if not more. It's what justified me spending an outright exorbant amount on skates. A philosophy like that cannot be wholly ignored.

And my goal, once again, is not necessarily to do anything specific. It may be that I am limited by my own attitude, and I'm sure plenty of people will decry it as a shame or a waste, but that concerns me only to a small degree. I'm not aiming for the olympics. I'm not necessarily even aiming to win. I am aiming to do my best, whatever that is, and I'll decide what my best is, not anyone else. I certainly have taken on paid advisors, and I appreciate every comment that everyone here makes, and furthermore, I want you all to know that I will take your advice seriously. And the only thing that offends me is that your comments seem to suggest I'm so immature as to NOT take what you say seriously. If I didn't want to know, I wouldn't ask. I do want to know, so I do ask.

Now things I feel I need to address specifically:

Quite possibly, but only if I decide I've gotten as far as I wanted to get. As long as I feel successful. There's no time limit here, no specific goals. So, I'm somewhat skeptical of your prediction.

That rude akwakening may well be what I need, if so I welcome it. I need to fail spectaculalry to get better. More explanation of that in my next response.

Asked and answered, as the legal phrase goes. The process is hard, and I have a great deal of respect for it. I'm not claiming I am somehow above the process and that I can simply bully my way through it and make it say uncle. That would be arrogant.

If anything, I think you can claim irrationallity more than arrogance. So it isn't humility I need to show. I freely admit, I'm the type of person to stick a fork in an electrical socket. I learn better when I fail for myself, even if that failure is immense. It's a hard, grueling, painful way to learn, but it's the only way I learn. Just be glad you can learn by being told what to avoid. That's not good enough for me. Trust me, no one will change that aspect of my personality. If parents, teachers, and coaches couldn't change it in other disciplines, what makes you think that anyone else can with regards to figure skating?

I wouldn't think otherwise. I never said so, and I don't believe I said anything that this could be infered from.

And finally just to reiterate my points here:

1. I am not claiming I am awesome, or better than the norm, or saying, as was suggested "look how far I've come." I am claiming I am happy with my rate of progress. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more. Just that I am happy with my rate of progress. I do not believe there is anything wrong with that.

2. I am listening to all of you, and your input is important to me. If I did not want your input, I would not be on the forums.

3. I am aware of the need to spend more time on my basics, and I respect them as the foundation of skating.

4. As long as I feel I am successful, no outside measurements need be used. This about me doing something I love because I love it, not for any specific goal.

5. I do things the hard way. It amounts to a lot of pain and a lot of frustration in my life, but it is the only way I learn. If I don't fail for myself, I will never truly believe it. Fork, meet socket.

You claim you want to be competitive at at least the adult gold level. The men who are best at the adult gold level have fantastic basics to go along with solid jumps and spins. Last weekend, at Midwestern Adult Sectionals, you would have seen the difference. The man who won the division has a sense of style to go along with BIG jumps. His jumps are big because he has great basics. His basics improved greatly when he decided to take up pairs and actually test pairs on the standard track because he had to go back and learn the standard track MIF (he had passed his Gold FS before the moves were implemented) and is currently working on his Intermediate MIF. The man who was 4th 2 footed his axel, but his stroking and basics were so smooth as compared to the 5th place finisher.

My own basics improved immensely when I decided it was time to learn the MIF (I am another skater who passed their adult Gold FS before the MIF requirement) and I recently tested and passed those darn Intermediate MIF. Although I had a rough skate at Mids for me (I fell on an automatic jump and proceeded to wonder how that happened through the rest of the program) my speed, posture and basics still got me some repectable marks from about 1/2 the judges which NEVER would have happened if I hadn't decided to work on MIF.

I spend the equivalent of 2 of my full sessions a week working on stroking and moves, something I have not done in seasons past, and I think it shows, even when I make mistakes in competitions. I would highly recommend structuring your practices via a notebook so you are FORCED to work on those basics when you go back and review. I know you are happy with your progress and are impatient and want to go quickly through stuff, but you REALLY will get stuck on things longer and get frustrated if you DON'T work on basics. You think you want to be ready to go to ANs in Chicago next year (even at the Bronze level). The programs that are best at that level are the ones chock full of good in betweens since everyone does the same jumps. That means edges, GOOD stroking, footwork, spirals, etc. If you were just going to doink around and not compete, we wouldn't all be all over this.

Well said, and I agree. I swear, I'm not fighting y'all on this. Really.

Just a few clarifications, again. The goal I originally stated was simply to get to ANs in five years. This was before I realized that there were bronze, silver, and gold levels. So then I got more specific and said Gold Level. Regardless, I did not expect to be competing at ANs at all next year. That was all Tim's idea. Because I am an impatient sort (deceased equine, no need to strike it), certainly I was pretty happy with the news.

As it is, I will spend the next sessions until my next lesson with Tim doing only basics and not jumping at all. That'll probably be about a month or so.

That made my eyes well right up when I read it, because it's something I've learned the hard way.

Kevin reminds me a lot of myself last year. When you're first learning, the new skills accumulate fast, and it's easy to believe you are making really great progress. So you eagerly rush on to jumps and "get them" as soon as you can, to try to keep the rate of progress high. They aren't very good, but you can always improve them later - they'll be easier once you get farther ahead anyways, right? Wrong.

My skating today is really disappointing, which is why I don't skate very much anymore. Maybe enough time with a good coach can fix all the things I'm unhappy about, but as Stardust said, it's counterproductive, and it will take longer than if I had just slowed down and taken my time focusing on improving basic elements all along. Right now more coach time is not something I can afford.

If you try to keep rushing, then in another few months you will lose the fire that's driving you now, and you don't want that... I hope you find a balance before then.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I've only just noticed this thread so if Kevin is indeed open to critique I will say what I saw on the jump video.

Ultra harsh critique follows but for a good reason - honest!

Salchow first - well sorry to be harsh but I would not have recognised that as a salchow if you hadn't told me. It was a UHT (unidentified hoppy thing) take off position poor, air position poor , landing position poor. Looks worse than the first one I ever tried!!!! I hope you are right that you do them better with your coach and if that is the case I'd say stop practising them like that and wait for your coach.

The only reason I did a reasonable imitation of a salchow the first time I ever tried one was because I spent 3 years doing dance before I even tried to jump, so my 3 turns were good and I understood the concept of checking before the jump and controlling the entry edge. The dance was because jumping terrified me and part of the problem was that a friend was learning to jump and came out of every lesson black and blue after falling all over the place. Now while I agree that if you aren't falling you aren't trying very hard, I can also say that I have fallen very few times learning to jump because I've got the basics right first and this makes it much easier to then improve the jump by pushing yourself faster into it because you know the actual jump technique is not going to let you down. Now I fall because I am increasing the speed beyond my comfort zone and lose the entry edge control. Dont' you want to be able to get quickly to a position where you can do a fast, controlled, identifiable jump?

I'm not suggesting you do 3 years of dance but I do think you need to work on that control of edges and turns and then the 'correct' jump will be easy. The problem with launching yourself into jumps any old how without proper technique, is that you can't progress to doubles and to putting them in a programme like that and they seem much harder than they really are.

You do need to do a controlled 3 turn and be able to check the 3 turn before bringing the leg around to jump. You also need to check the arms so you can use them to give you the rotation you need and to bend the skating knee to jump up. All things I'm sure your coach will have told you.

The toe-loop was also rushed and turned into a toe-waltz. View your jump in slow motion (use play, pause alternately) and just look at your position immediately before you take off - your entire body is sideways along with both feet which shows you have prerotated and are not taking off from the correct edge of the free foot and are turning the picking foot too. Can you do a RBO pivot? (i.e pick in with left foot behind and pivot the right foot around, heel leading RBO edge in an anticlockwise direction). That's more or less the position your feet should be in at the point of take off with body still facing forward, left arm forward, right arm back ready to bring round and through for the rotation.

OK - now for the point. You say you are happy with your progress. Why be happy with bad jumps? You obviously have enough talent and ability to do it right. It seems to me that by doing these jumps over and over badly you are simply putting yourself back each time. I think you said you have a long gap between lessons - that doesn't help but by practising wrong technique you are having to start over with each lesson which can only delay progress. You can't be happy with doing it wrong. And Stardust skies is absolutely right that it is much better to learn it right the first time than have to spend a lot of time and effort correcting bad technique that is ingrained in muscle memory. You can do better!! Wouldn't it be good to be in a hurry to do it right than to do something anyold how? Get it right now and you'll be quickly progressing to doubles. Get it wrong now and you'll be spending years unlearning things. Nothing wrong with impatience but you have to have the correct goal in mind.

If you must practice jumps now (and I understand that a month is a long time to wait for a lesson) why not get an instructional video like the ones the ISU produce and use that and videoing yourself to get a comparison and then you would be able to see for yourself where your jump technique needs to be improved. With that and practising the basics like you've said (good for you!!), should get you to your next lesson in a position to improve rapidly instead of fixing what's gone wrong in between lessons.

Good luck and I look forward to the video of your first double jump. Me, I doubt I'll ever do an axel let alone a double

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

O.o that wasn't harsh at all. It was very polite.

I said I was happy with my rate of progress. As in I am pleased at the speed I am moving. That is a far different thing than being happy with bad jumps.

Actually, that's with Tim specifically. I have a lesson with Barry next monday.

Hmm OK but I was thinking that with your obvious comfort level on the ice you should be able to do the jumps better than you are now or alternatively that you haven't yet progressed to doing any correct jump.
I think what worries us (or me anyway) is that people often confuse being able to jump and land 'something',with being able to perform a figure skating element. We dont want you to be happy with something that isn't correct when you have the ability to correct it.

I count my progress in term of those elements I can do 'consistently, well and with correct form' (which is why I barely count my loop despite having landed it several times in my programme in competition),whilst appreciating they can always be improved.

This is why I believe people are cautioning you to take things more slowly and work on getting things right because it seems quick progress is important to you. While your progress seems quick to you right now in that you are 'landing jumps'; then if it takes you an awful long time to actually be able to use those jumps in competition or to progress to doubles because of incorrect technique then you might lose that enthusiasm. If you appreciate the real progress you are making (and not be fooled by equating a jump executed any-old-how as progress) then skating can be something that will keep you enthralled for a lifetime. And get you to AN's quicker in the long run.


That's good since he will be able to work with you on the corrections.

Best of luck - your talent and enthusiasm should take you far.

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'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

Do you have a plan when you practice, or do you just try to hit on everything?

I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but a basic warmup should be anywhere from 15-30 minutes, then you hit your plan.

Warmup:
Stroking-going around each direction, focusing of power, edge quality, extension, etc.
Crossovers-each direction, same focus as above (I tend to do twice as many on my worst side).
Edges-FI, FO, BI, BO again, edge quality, evenness of lobes, etc.
During all of these, posture should be 100%! i.e.-no looking down!

Then hit the basics:
3-turns-LFO, LFI, RFO, RFI
Mohawks-every kind you know
Then, while you are "fresh" maybe work on:
Jump landing position: from back crossovers or mohawks or 3-turns. Hold and glide for several seconds
Then you hit the jumps, starting with waltz, maybe the 1/2 jumps, then toe-loop, etc.

I don't work on any one item more than 15 minutes-I get bored or mad if it isn't working. If an item is stumping you and you can't execute correctly, make a note of it and hit it during your next lesson. My coach always asks me what I want to work on. Sometimes I tell her, sometimes I let her pick.

You should be spinning a 2-foot spin by now. I would ask your coach why you aren't. Once you have that, then technique kicks in for learning the one-foot spin (usually from a pivot, then progressing to another entry). You need to have good edges and 3-turns before that happens-maybe they aren't that great and that's why you haven't been taught?

You should also think about keeping a training log of some sort-write down what you work on each session, what stumps you, etc. Because of my limited time, I can only hit a little of each item-no time to hit it all. So, I alternate what I work on, also, I only work on each item no more than 15 minutes each. If it is working well, then I move on quicker. I don't keep working on an item if it ain't working right-I make a note and press on to the next item.

You said you get sloppy when your coach isn't watching-you should strive to skate well each time you hit the ice! Sloppiness is a bad habit to develop when ice skating. If you can do a move correctly under your coach's supervision, then you should do it correctly without! Every time you skate posture (and not looking down), positioning, control, etc. should be with you. Sloppiness in your moves leads to poor technique, which will lead to frustration and you wondering why you can't do a particular item away from your coach. Skating is hard enough as it is, proper technique makes it a bit easier (still work though).

I hope this is helpful to you Kevin.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Nope, no plan. I pretty much try to follow the format of my lesson, but just generally, I try to practice everything I already know.

This looks to be very helpful, thank you.

You can fight the ice. You can say that you are going to attack and do it no matter what it takes.

The ice won't yield and the ice won't change. The only thing that will change the results is improving technique. There is only one way.

Yup, yup and yup!!!

I should also warn you about this too. I'm a Pre-Bronze FS skater and after about 6.5 years I STILL haven't passed Bronze Moves. All those that have seen me practicing at my rinks could tell 'ya that they see me working on my Bronze moves a lot!!! (Probably to the point where I'm working some amount of spins and rarely jumps.) But belive it nr not, makes spins and jumps a heck of a lot less effort. That's because you'll have a lot more confidence in your edges to stay on hose edges to make the jumps you need to do. Spin entries too! (I got one gal who's gonna crack up when she reads this and say "I told 'ya so!!!" about this! Alright! YOU WIN!!! ) All of you that hated working on power 3's (* RAISE HAND HIGH*) -- forward power 3's are well worth working on to get good spin entries. If I didn't work on power 3's, my spin entries would be crappy and there would be no way of getting a nice forward spin... and therefore a good sit spin (and now my camel. )

Basics, in which MOVES (and everything else) is derived from, is NOT easy!!! Anything "worthwhile" never comes easy!!! And for all I know my probability of ever passing Bronze Moves is probably slim to none given some of the issues I've been having with my basics (Back crossovers in this case! It's better, but STILL a total MESS!!! I should film and post my back crossovers someday just to show you how bad they are. ) But the rest of the improvements on my skating overall is helping. (We'll see by how much when I do Sectionals in a couple of weeks, though. I did the impossible of winning one comp so far!)

And even if/when I do end up doing the impossilbe by passing Bronze moves, I still got a lot more work to do!!! (3turns and spirals, anyone???) But trust me, it's well worth it, especially when you're working on choreography!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Well at least you're staying motivated and going after it.

__________________
Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I don't feel so overwhelmed by my timetable now! My hubby asked me what my end goal was from all these lessons and skating (he was feeling a bit jealous) and I did say that eventually I wanted to be a "gold level skater" before I collected Social Security. I am 44 now.

So I've got 25 years to work on it. Of course, I haven't tested pre-bronze yet....of course, I could always switch to dance if I never get some of these jumps!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!