perplexes me....sometimes it seems like they are looking for a nice clean smooth skate, and other times, it seems like they are rewarding tries at things the kids cannot really do. My dd did a beautiful preliminary program this weekend, clean, with two double sals (one in combination with a loop jump), one simple spin, one more high level combination, no travel, lots of revolutions, good power and speed. Most of her competitors tried other doubles, but fell...and placements were all over the place- my dd got one last, one first and one in the middle!!

WHAT are they looking for exactly?

You'll never really know, since it depends on the particular panel. Teach her to focus on how she skated, not the placement, or it will make you both crazy.

Oh, she did, and was perfectly ok with it...just wondering if I was missing something!!

From what I've seen, marking at the lower levels does tend to be all over the place & varies widely from competition to competition. I have a pre-pre girl who competed recently. Did much harder footwork, has nice big jumps, and held her spins longer than anyone else. But, skated slower & looks less polished than most of them. She was 6th out of 7. The competition a month before, same program, she won.

I've been thinking of talking to a local judge just to get her opinion of what the judges really want to see/what they give more weight to at these levels. I wonder if you'd get 5 different answers if you asked 5 different judges.

I think speed weighs a great deal on the judging at the lower levels.

That's just my impression from looking at several events recently where the skaters were well-matched, but the slower skaters really gave the impression of being less confident or not having mastered the maneuvers. In a few cases, I was surprised in the Basic Skills events by the results that put the slowest skaters last even though their elements looked just as correct.

I've been including power skating in each skating lesson to build speed and strength for all my private students who can't/won't attend the group power skating class.

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Well, I would think that too, but my 9 yo is very fast and confident in her skating, so that wasn't it- at least THIS time- LOL!! I think whomever said if they asked 5 judges they'd get 5 different answers is probably on the mark!

Sorry to barge in on your thread, but I've noticed the phrase "dd" a lot. And I can't figure out what it stands for So far I've got:

Darling Daughter
Dashing Darcey
Dark Dancer
Delightful Dancer

And lots of others but mostly I just started putting d words together. What does it stand for?

Ask your coach about the placement. The coach saw the skate and the other skaters, likely; the coach can tell you best how your skater "compared" to the other skaters. The coach can also likely give you guidance on what was marked well or poorly. You might not have seen URs or cheats or missing revs from your angle of vision (if that happened to your or another skater); you might see speed, but, not see whether the skater was skating on her edges as opposed to the flats of the skates. There are a host of aspects to judging a skate ... it's hard to be a judge and do it well, which is why there aren't lots of people doing it - or qualifying to do it.

DD = darling daughter,
DS = darling son
DH = Darling husband.

sometimes, substitute Dear for Husband. AFAIK, that's normal translations ...

(AFAIK: As far as I know ... that one drove me nuts for years!)

Ah! Thank you! You have solved my questioning. And I was wondering about that AFAIK I thought it was a company name I'm not good at this online lingo. Which is weird. Because I'm 19 and supposedly am supposed to be super awesome at it.

(Also, I love those face. They make my day better )

Her coach was pretty surprised this time too- especially in the inconsistency between the judges in the panel and wasn't really sure what to make of it. Oh well!!

I don't know what it is they are loooking for all the time. I do agree about the speed thing and I think different judges look for different things! Recently, my daughter's club had 3 judges come and talk to us. We got to ask questions and they answered them. It was very helpful to hear what it is they look for and what they like to see. Maybe your dd's club could arrange something like that? I am sure you are not the only parent who walks away from the ordinals scratching your head! Anyway... good luck. I know you are proud of your daughter no matter what her placement is.

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skating mom to 3 angels on earth and 1 in heaven

That is funny!

That is a good idea, our club is starting to get more ramped up than in the past. I agree, she did an awesome job either way, landing all her jumps as if she wasn't NEW at them (you know that new look they have sometimes with things??)

FWIW (for what it's worth ), my post was about my student, not my daughter. I still didn't agree w/ the placement. Sometimes we (coaches) do see things parents/spectators don't, but sometimes the judges see things that no one else sees, including the coaches!

Nonqual event placements are always wonky - depends on the club's choice of judges, etc.


Basically, I try to remember that the judges are all individuals, and so have individual ideas about placement in the 6.0 system. They have to decide placement, and one may appreciate strong, deep edges, another may go for speed, one may look more at upper body positioning, and how often the skater breaks at the waist, scrapes a toepick for crossovers, etc. They are also VOLUNTEERS!

As a mom, I have to remember that I'm no judge or coach, don't have the training for either, and to just shut up and let the coaches, judges, and skaters deal with the placement stuff. Learned that from a very wise mom at a synchro competition. Her daughter just got a world bronze medal as a member of the Haydenettes.

One thing you can do is track the judges/placements from competition to competition. There may be a judge that just loves your daughter's style of skating, and another who thinks it stinks. We know the judging trends of most of the local MITF test judges in this area - so my daughter could place emphasis on certain parts that she knew would please the judges.

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blades, gary, Lucy, Emily, take care of Aiden and Sami. Sami is my sweetest heart, and always will be, forever. RIP Cubby Boy, my hero dog.

It's not just about the jumps nor is it just about the spins. It's the WHOLE program - especially in the 6.0 system. I've had it described this way....Take a picture of a horse - your responsibility is to color it in using crayons and any colors you want based on what's in the box. If you only color the eyes, it's not much of a picture - if you only color the tail, it's not really a good picture either....BUT....if you color it all in, with details and markings, and use various colors, it becomes a very good picture of a horse.

Same with a skating program! 9 times out of 10, you'll have a panel of judges that are focused on different things. They are also probably aware and maybe even judge the IJS, therefore, the combination of a difficult and challenging program combined with transitions, superior skating skills, decent choreography, etc.....(the program component scores) will speak volumes in a judges mind vs. a program filled with just good jumps and spins.


I'm sure your skater had the whole package - just trying to explain the judges viewpoints at the 6.0 level.

We've had such similar stuff and my daughter really does seem to be able to divide judges! I'm working very hard trying to get my daughter to not worry so much about her scores as they are so unpredictable! (Being the perfectionist that she is this is hard work!)

Yesterday she did a competition although technical scores where more or less what both she and coaches were expecting she had unbelievably low artistic scores. Normally this is considered her strong point as she has very good edgework, grace, arms etc.

Coaches at the competition (sadly not her coach as taken there by another coach) comments were that she has deep knee bend and "rises and falls" and that she looks like an ice dancer doing free-skating and that perhaps this was being penalised! Who knows...

I do see judges writing down loads though and wish some of their comments would be shared with the skaters to use as a learning experience for them.

And sometimes one judge sees things the others don't - I remember once at a dance competition one of my friends got a much lower ordinal from judge no 3 than from the others. So I asked if she knew what Judge no 3 had seen, and was told she'd skidded on bad ice in the corner, just where Judge no 3 could see her but nobody else could!

But the marks can be all over the place. I remember the judges on one panel getting terribly frustrated with themselves as they were all marking differently, and cheering themselves on the rare occasions they got the marks the same! We realised what was happening and egged them on (it was an adult competition!).

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I think the results under 6.0 really depend upon the training of the judges used on the panel. Any judge who also uses the ISU CoP system will take all components into consideration when judging under 6.0, which results in a much more balanced, overall mark for all skaters. However, having judged a lot under 6.0 in my former life.....I do know that some judges will place a skater they 'favor' or 'like' over a skater that actually can skate! Unfortunately, I have been on a panel where a skater who tried lots of jumps but UR them - but could suck her toes from behind and twist like a pretzel -- was given higher ordinals than the skater that actually landed clean jumps and nice spins but couldn't do a biellmann or a charlotte! Fortunately those biased judges are leaving the system as CoP is reaching its way down the ranks, and they don't want to be retrained. One of my own students - a national competitor - who lands clean double axels and triples - was beaten by a 'pretzel' who landed a badly cheated triple and badly cheated doubles (no double axel) - at a varsity competition! Everyone was left shaking their heads as these retired "out of touch" judges showed their lack of understanding for the sport. Next varsity competitition - all ISU/Olympic/national judges and guess what the result was?

Remember also - that 6.0 relies on OBO judging as well. Each skater is compared with the previous skater and the judge has to decide if the skater is better, equal or worse than the previous. That ranking - ordinals - decides where the skater places, not the mark as in IJS or CoP. So a skater that is given several first place ordinals by a few judges, but receives lower ordinals from the rest -- can end up below a skater who receives all 3rd place ordinals. And, in some cases the skater with the 3rd place or 4th place ordinals will win overall.

At least under the CoP system, a skater can see how close they were to winning...sometimes by .01...and sometimes the difference between first and 10th is just a decimal point, which makes the skater feel better about their skate. Instead of placing 10th - they can see that they were just one spin rotation from first, or one harder single jump (.3 waltz vs .5 loop, or .8 axel, or adding one combination toe/loop .4+.5).

I think the book "Inside Edge" has a story of a judge that gave an elite skater a very high mark, while all the rest gave very low marks. 6.0 Judges are supposed to be "inline" with the others (which I think is a problem with that system in and of itself) so he was nervously wondering what he missed. After asking another judge it turns out the skater had run into a wall- right after he dropped his pencil, and had to look down.

You just never know what they will and won't see- which is why skaters used to be trained to come up from a fall in landing position, maybe the judge missed the fall (now the cameras will catch it for sure).

IMO, while there are definetly "rules"- 6.0 is a crap-shoot. You never know what the judge is looking for. Is a slow backspin on the proper edge better than a fast "backspin" on the wrong edge? Some judges prefer the skater just to be spinning, others want good technique.

I also think like VirtualSk8r said that CoP judges will take that system into account when scoring 6.0- which they really shouldn't be doing. But they are so trained to look for the CoP things that ends up being part of what they are looking for.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Marks all over the map are common especially at the lower levels where all of the skaters in a group are doing pretty much the same things. Different judges look for different things: some put more weight on power (which is not the same thing as speed), some on edging, some on control, some on the technical, some on the presentation.

The only way to know what a judge is looking for is to ask the judge. Most judges are more than willing to explain their placement. However, there's a proper procedure for this (as chair of my club's open for 16 years I know it well ):

1. You have to decide which judge you want to talk to - it's usually the one who was either way out line with the rest or who gave the lowest placement.

2 Get your coach and have them find either the competition chair or the event referee and ask politely if that judge will speak to you. Try to do this as soon after the event as you can, because if you wait too long the judge may have seen several other groups and forgotten who you are in the throng.

3. When the judge comes out, introduce skater and coach (it helps if the skater is still wearing the outfit she/he skated in) and explain that you're confused by the range of placements and would like to know what the skater can do to improve in that judge's eyes. Please note that the judge will only offer comments about you and not about your competitors and not about the other judges on the panel.

4. Listen politely to what the judge says (whether you agree or not) and thank them when they're done. Take notes. If nothing else, you're making a positive impression on the judge so that the next time they see you on the ice, they're thinking "Oh, yes, that's that nice girl from X."

Oh, and if by chance you run into a judge who doesn't want to talk to you, don't take it personally. Some judges just aren't comfortable talking to parents - they might be the type who immediately forgets a group as soon as they turn in their sheets or they've been screamed at by parents or coaches in the past and don't want to subject themselves to that again or they simply don't have time because of their schedule. After a while you get to know who will and who won't talk to you, and of those who will, whose advice is helpful and whose isn't.

Just remember that judges are people too. They don't all walk in lockstep just because they're judges.

one thing to consider regarding marks all over the place is perhaps the skaters were very close and there wasn't a clear cut 1, 2, 3, etc...... Sometimes it's not a bad thing to have ordinals all over the place.

It has been my experience that judges who also use the CoP system are by far the most accurate and fairest of them all. They are accustomed to applying a set standard and being held accountable for their marks, especially those that judge at the qualifying level, because the skater will have a report card to see where they gained/lost marks. The whole process becomes automatic for them, as they are used to being under pressure and evaluating skaters very quickly for the PCS elements, and to look out for good technique plus clean landings etc.

I groan when I look at a panel of 6.0 judges - and see the judges I know have't kept up with the rules and are biased, because they are out there. The only saving grace is to see well-seasoned, highly educated, experienced judges that understand that a Preliminary skater is not the same as a Senior - and that skating skills are more important than flapping arms, drama but no skating.

BTW Keep your highlights in full view of the judging panel....because judges do sneeze, look down, drop pencils and zone out during events! I can't count the times when I was a judge that a fellow panel member would elbow me and ask - was that a 2s - was that clean - is that a toe loop they did --or worse.....what mark did you give? Did you pass it (on a test). Sad to say - those same judges are still at it and still don't know what they are looking at........Years of judging has given my coaching an entirely different perspective...for the better.

That's really good advice - I had a judge come up and comment on how BEAUTIFUL a skater's jump was in her program. I choreographed it right in front of the judges. The judge never commented on the weak spin that was buried in the corner, somewhat out of sight...

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