Please see the second paragraph of flo's post. There is a vast difference in the quality of skating skills between people who skated as kids, no matter what their level, and people who learned to skate for the first time past age 25. Most of the judges, who see hundreds of skaters a year, can correctly identify adults who skated as kids just from the warm-ups. After you've competed a few years, you may see it too. I know after more than 20 years in the sport, it's pretty obvious to me - and that's even among people I didn't see skate when they were kids!

I don't know, blue111moon.

When I saw myself on video the first time my first thought was "Oh no! I look like an adult!!!" Somehow, in my mind, I still think I should look like a 16 year old .

Seriously, I can see your point. Especially at the lower levels - I still doubt that there'd be that huge of a difference at Gold, but I don't think I've yet watched a Gold who hasn't skated as a kid (so I probably should keep my mouth shut, hunh? ).

It's just that I don't really see a practical solution to the problem. I've skated in two local competitions since I've been back on the ice. At the first one there were 4 of us skating at Gold, and last weekend I was the only adult at the entire competition. Even at Sectionals, in the non-qualifying event (combined II's and III's), there's only 7 of us and in the qualifying event there's 13. Are there really enough adult skaters of each type to seperate us?

BTW, somebody had suggested putting us returnees in with the masters.....um I don't like that idea too much. The reason? As it is now I can enter the qualifying round with a reasonable chance of qualifying for the championship round at AN's. There is no way on earth that I could ever hope to qualify at the masters level - those ladies have double lutzes and stuff like that!!! (Actually, if truth be told, I have no real hope of qualifying at Gold this year....but someday )

There aren't enough skaters at local competitions to split the adults. But there are enough at Adult Nationals and since they now give out medals for the qualying rounds there, I think it would be possible to split the groups there.

Practically speaking, it would have to be on an honor system until USFSA's computer records could catch up (and there would be sandbaggers, I know - not everyone id honest, unfortunately.) But it could be done, if the Committee members decided to. I don't see that happening, so what will probably happen - and is happening now, if the comments I'm hearing from adults in my area is any indication - is that the adults who started skating as adults will drift toward ISI or away from AN altogether, leaving the field to the returnees. The level of competition and the quality of skating will go up, but the people for whom the Asdut Test Struture was created will be left out.

Wow, you have a pessimistic view, especially since it seems you have yet to even go watch ANs and see how diverse the levels actually are.

So what if you're not competing Masters at 25...is that somehow a failure on your part? It shouldn't be. And no, Masters is not intended for only the child skaters: I can name several skaters who started skating as beginners well past age 25 who are competing in Masters. I can also name a few skaters who started as kids and never stopped skating who are Gold or below.

And why are you too old to do "the usual things?" I think YOU think you're too old, but there is no rule that says you can't compete there. I'm considering competing this year in Novice Regionals, and I'm 31!

It seems to me you're putting restrictions on yourself, because there IS a place in the competitive world for you, but you don't seem to want to find it.

As for everyone else's comments regarding returing child skaters and new beginning adult skaters...I find this discussion continously frustrating. I am a returning child skater, but there are skaters who started as adults who kick my butt in competition on a regular basis. Perhaps they are the exception to the rule, but they do exist, so since it *is* acheivable for a new skater to become great skaters with deep knees and flow, I think we should all skate and compete together. Some people naturally have talent, and the rest of us have to work harder.

Examples:
Kim Morgan: started skating at age 37, had 2lutz by 43. Competes Novice, I think.
Kim Sailer: started at age 27 in Silver, won 2nd last year in both Open Gold and Champ. Gold at ANs. She's moved up to Novice and is doing masters at Easterns next weekend.
Ann Devlin: Don't know if she's a child skater or not, but she passed her Junior Free in her 50s! Featured in Skating magazine last year, and Kicked my butt at Easterns last year (and I'm 20+ years younger).

I for one don't care if I get beaten or compete against new skaters who have better jumps than i do...instead of getting bitter that they are surpassing me i look upon it as a challenge to improve myself. I'm not in this sport for the medals. And sometimes when I hear an adult complaining that they can't win against returning child skaters who may have a better "quality" about them, then I respond by asking that adult what their goals in the sport are. Because frankly, if you're in it for medals, i think you should reevaluate why you're here. Because even if you're in a competition where there are NO returning child skaters, who is to say you're still going to win a medal?

I think adult skating...ALL adult skating regardless of when you started the sport...is important and valuable to the USFSA and all of us. I would hope we wouldn't further divide ourselves into subsections of talent and quality. I try to be supportive of all types of skaters because this is a beautiful sport that teaches us all so much, and I wish that were the focus of adult competitions.

For what it's worth, I know a lot of my fellow Masters level ladies, and I can't think of one who doesn't think that new adult skaters aren't valuable to the sport. And I can't imagine any of us would ever purposly try to make new adult skaters feel alienated. It bothers me greatly that I hear a lot of dissension from new skaters about us child skaters, but I've never heard any animosity from child skaters to new skaters.

skater1964 - What you don't look like you're 16????
I agree it would be pretty tough for many returning skaters to compete in the masters groups. It's not uncommon to lump groups at the local level, but I thought there would be more at the sectionals. I was at one event where they combined the men and ladies. My friend was happy, as he could compete in a larger field - we bet dinner. It was delicious!

Manley, you're right, it is "possible" for an adult to achieve some skills equal to that of a returning skater, but for the vast majority it's not very probable or common. My partner and I competed in masters pairs, as he was a gold level skater. We competed with a former kid pair. We had a death spiral that I'd put up against any returning pair, but the fact was that there's a significant difference in the overall quality of skating. And our goal is not "just the medals". Our goal is a good competition. If we didn't want a good competition then we would not compete at all. You're right, there are good skaters and better skaters at all levels. All should not expect medals, but should expect a good competition.

And I guess because it is possible, thats why I don't think the levels should be further categorized into "returning" skaters and "new" skaters. Besides the fact that, as has been stated by others, it would be an organizational mess.

We all want good fair competition. I too have felt robbed or frustrated at competition, but I'm hopeful about adult skating. It's still so new and has lots of bugs to be worked out, and I'd love to see other events offered (like spin or moves events), but frankly, I think most of the time the adult competitions work out well.

Regarding adding other events: I've talked to a few people on the USFSA adult committee about adding spin events (for people who don't like to jump), jump events (vice-versa), and MIF events at ANs. But because ANs runs so long already, and adults can only take so many days off from work, it doesn't seem feasable. It's a shame.

It's not about somebody being "better" than you. To me, it's about a level playing field. You can anecdotally point to several fabulous adult onset skaters, and there are returning adult skaters whose butts I could kick, but I stand by the generality that adults who skated as kids are different from adults who started as adults. That's why Masters skaters got separated from Adult skaters to begin with. I personally don't think the separation went far enough. I think there needs to be at least one more, if not two more, Masters levels.

I'm not talking about individual skaters making anyone feel alienated. Nobody has ever come up to me at an adult competition (and I do a fair number of them) and said, " we don't value you in this sport." I'm talking about USFSA as an organization and the rules it makes and the messages it sends. Once again, I'll state that I (and other adult skaters I know) don't blame the skaters. I blame the rules. Why is that so hard to believe? Why do you interpret this as animosity? I'm stating a philosophical opinion.

Skaternum, that's an important point. Many returning skaters are very supportive, and have mentioned to me that they know how hard it is for them to compete with an older body, let alone learn all this with one! I'm sure there are a hanfull of adult skaters who can "kick butt" of returning kids. But the adult program was not developed for a handful of skaters, but for the majority of the adults.
I do agree that the USFSA still does not have a grasp of what it is to be an adult skater. That's one reason I'm going to the May meeting. It's a work in progress!

Generally speaking, yes, I agree.

Here I disagree, because ...
a) there ARE skaters who are the exception to your first quote. Maybe not many, but they exist.
b) practically speaking, currently there aren't enough Masters ladies nationwide to warrant more levels. If that changes in the future, then perhaps the USFSA should add more levels, but right now it seems unnecessary.
c) if you've ever watched Novice, Junior or Senior ladies at ANs, you'll see lots of disparity of skill. Some of the Gold Ladies are better than the Masters Ladies, believe me! So I just don't understand when i hear posters being frustrated that they are afraid to move up a level or that it's too competitive in Masters. There is room for more skaters to move up to Masters.

Perhaps it's the medium of email that make certain posts come across as aggressive, but I do feel on this message board that there are frequent posts of "I had to compete against someone who had "x" element...how unfair!" and "I didn't get a medal because of XYZ." So i feel that the posts are blaming the skaters, and NOT directing the frustration at the USFSA. Perhaps you don't blame the skaters (for which I thank you!) but other posters do. This is all good discussion for how to improve adult skating, but posters should be more cognisant of placing their frustration where it belongs. Because I do feel that some of the posts are bitter towards us returning skaters. JMO.

One thing regarding USFSA: like it or not they have for along time been set up for competition and not so much for fun (like ISI). And I'm all for making sure that adults of all levels are included and thought of at USFSA Headquarters. So I do think these discussions are valuable to help solidify ideas of how we can all be included in competition and testing.

Flo, glad to know you're going to the meeting. You'll have to let us know our thoughts!

What I would like to see is more categories for "continuing" skaters - those who have perhaps got as far as they are going in the elite competitions, but who don't want to give up either skating or competing. I want to be able to encourage those who, for instance, were never going to make their country's Nationals at any level, but who were good, solid Club skaters, well able to represent their Clubs in League matches and Team Challenge. Perhaps they plateau-ed out at whatever your equivalent of Bronze is (our level 5-6), and were never going to get the triple jumps they needed to continue.

I don't belong to that category myself; I started as an adult and will never be anything other than a really poor adult skater. But I don't want to see any category of skater feeling "left out".

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I don't view it as a failure that I'm not competing in Masters. My goal is Championship Gold, and I'm ok with that. I want to compete in qualifying events, and with the double lutzes and double axels in Championship Masters, I will not be competitive. Who knows, by the time I'm 30 I might be in Masters. If so, cool. If not, oh well. I am being realistic. I'm not a jumper and never have been. I can spin and I would like to think that the choreographic part of my programs are good.

And please don't assume that since I've never been to ANs that I don't know what I'm talking about. I went to Adult Midwesterns in 2001 and watched the entire competition, which was quite large. Perhaps my perspective will change once I see what I'm competing against, but it's not like I've never seen an adult skater. I'm rather removed from the adult scene up here in Buffalo where I can count the number of serious adult skaters on one hand.

Well, yes, there IS a rule - at my freestyle level (Juvenile), I am too old. Even at Intermediate I am too old. Considering that I have a shaky axel, no consistent doubles, I'm not going to go far in Open Juvenile - not to mention that Open Juv is usually capped at 18. If I could pass my Novice FS I would, and I would probably compete in Regionals just for the heck of it! At my skill level I AM too old for qualifying events, and I feel uncomfortable and would be out of place competing in club competitions against 10-year-olds.

Oh, that's bullhockey. It's not like I feel I don't belong in skating, or I go around acting like an outcast and a loner because competitively I don't "fit" anywhere right now. I have friends, I enjoy my time on the ice and I compete when and where I feel comfortable - usually solo dance.

You tell me - what are the options for a 22-year-old with a sorta axel, no consistent doubles and good spins? Except for a few competitions with young adult events (most are just now offering adult categories), there is not a competitive arena for people of my age and skill. I am not embarrassed, ashamed, or demeaned by my skills or lack of. *shrug* I don't even like competing that much!

I don't understand why you are interpreting this all with hostility. Reread my messages with a relaxed tone then maybe it'll sound better! I'm not all that concerned, nor do I think I need to start any kind of national movement for the sake of a few 18-24 year olds who can do axels. I'm looking forward to competing as an adult, I think it will be more fun.

Flo, I will see you at Governing Council!!! I'm going too! :-)

Jocelyn

"Well, yes, there IS a rule - at my freestyle level (Juvenile), I am too old. Even at Intermediate I am too old. Considering that I have a shaky axel, no consistent doubles, I'm not going to go far in Open Juvenile - not to mention that Open Juv is usually capped at 18. If I could pass my Novice FS I would, and I would probably compete in Regionals just for the heck of it! At my skill level I AM too old for qualifying events, and I feel uncomfortable and would be out of place competing in club competitions against 10-year-olds."

That rule only applies to Qualifying competitions. At least in New England, there are lots of Opens with no age limits on the standard level events. My club Open had 22 year olds competitng in Preliminary a couple years ago and the youngest person in the group was not quite seventeen. So the "competing against 10-year-olds" reason isn't valid. Opens have a wide range of ages within each level.

Besides, what's the difference between a 22-year old competing against a 12-year-old (which is the current average age for Juveneiles in my area) and a 22-year-old competing against a 32-year-old? It's still a ten year difference. If you don't want to compete against someone ten years younger than you are, then why should older adults want to compete against you? In Opens, though, the age range can be twenty or even thirty years between the oldest and youngest Adult (over 25)skaters.

I guess maybe what's bothering me about your posts is that I've heard the same things form a couple of under-25's in my area. They complain that there's nowhere for them to compete But they don't enter the competitions that are open to them. I get irked I think because I - and many of my contemporaries - spent more than a decade entering competitions that we knew weren't at our level just to convince USFSA that the numbers were there and Adult skaters were a viable entity. It seems to me that some - Not all - of the under-25s aren't willing to do that - stand up and make themselves be noticed. They want the events created before they'll enter them. USFSA generally wants to see numbers before they add events to their official rules, and frankly the response for the Yuung Adults just hasn't been there.

Besides why do you HAVE to "go far" in Open Juvenile? If you want to compete in Regionals, compete. At least you've done it. And if you come in last, so what?

Hi Jocelyn,
At a local event I have been to, one woman around 23-24 (in a situation much like yours) who applied to the standard event, was allowed to enter the adult event at the corresponding level. The adults in my group were ok with it. It worked out well, and now she's 25 and still competing with us. So you may want to check out some local events.
Good luck!

Holy smokes! What a discussion. I just got in to read the board after 2 days locked in with my children from our ice storm. I think that the answer is...... that there are no easy answers, and that adult skating is still new to the USFSA and things are still getting sorted out. My initial feeling is that the dilemna of returning skaters vs. adult onset skaters (wow that sounds like a disease, I think we need to call it something else) will be most prevalent at the younger age groups of each level. But, I could be wrong. I've only been to two sectionals and no adult nationals but it would be interesting to see if the folks towards the top of each level and age group were returning skaters or otherwise. I do think that adults who skated as kids move differently on the ice, no matter how far they got as kids, and that some of the skills are easier for them to pick up. A little bit like learning to ride a bike - if you learned its in there somewhere. I used to show horses as a kid and even though I haven't been on a horse in 15+ years, I'm sure after an hour or so I could probably ride decently and take a decent horse over some lower fences. Vs someone who hadn't been on a horse before.

I hope that at some point the adult skating committee and USFSA at least have some discussions about a number of the issues floating around in adult skating that should be sorted out. I personally think that the returning vs. started as an adult skater for competitive levels isn't the absolute top one to address, however, mostly because there will always be exceptions to the generalizations about that (returning skaters not skating as well as started as adult skaters, etc.). I would also say for the skaters not quite 25 who started in late teens or early twenties, that they should try to participate in as many competitions that offer young adult, because it would show the USFSA that this should be a legitimate category - and then you'll have a place to belong!

I would love to see the adult skating committe at least talk about some of these issues, along with things like what should REALLY be on the adult moves tests and helping judges figure out how to judge them. I think that's just as much of an issue as some of the other discussion topics.

For the record, coming from someone who competes In Masters, I don't find the above statement true at all. I haven't seen too many great 2axel attempts, and while there may be a frequent 2flip and 2 lutz here or there, I've seen plenty of girls place well with no higher than a 2loop, great spins, speed and footwork. Plus the girls with the 2lutz and 2axels certainly don't always land them! For some reason everyone has this perception that the Novice, Junior and Senior ladies are impenetrable. We aren't...I thought the Gold ladies were more competitive last year than my Novice group! That's why I think adding more levels in Masters isn't necessary.

Vesperholly...I'm not showing hostility towards you I promise, juat trying to show you that there ARE options. I think blue111moon articulated it better.

The adult issue is complicated. But I'm glad to see there's going to be some good representation at Governing Council!

The difference between 12 and 22 is WAY different than 22 and 32. The majority of twelve year olds, even dolled up in competition makeup, still look like a child - small features, a bit of baby fat, a mini-chest, no shape, etc. Unless you are two feet away, 22 and 32 are physically closer - they have both been through puberty, have skill at applying makeup :-) etc.

But really, I don't mind if there aren't Young Adult events right now. I think you are all taking a small complaint way too seriously. I don't think there's a big enough need for it much less at ANs. I don't blame the USFSA for not including it when there's not a need. What's frustrating to me is that I am a minority right now, and they don't respond to minorities - especially Young Adults since there are so few. I don't blame them, I'm just a bit frustrated sometimes, that's all.

Not to mention I can't exactly afford to be competing a lot, otherwise I would. There are personal things that effect our "cause" too.

Jocelyn

There are a lot more under-25s skating now than there were over-25s when I started.

Ahh! I feel the same way. Which is usually why I do not compete anymore. If I am going to compete, I will usually do spins, but not jumps. Im 19 going up against 10 year olds who have consistent double loops against my puny axel. This is the only year that Ill probably do open juv at regionals...if they have them for my age

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Lisa

Wont it be great? Someone else in '08!

Well Lisa you should have done Adult Sectionals too! :-)

Jocelyn

Well now that I know, theres always next year!

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Lisa

Wont it be great? Someone else in '08!

Whoa, looks like they moved the Bronze and Silver MIF events to later in the evening on Saturday. Plan accordingly!