LOL!!! We SUUUURE did!!!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Okay, I'm not an adult skater, so my opinions may be irrelevant, but this is my opinion:

I'm seeing a lot of people unhappy about the fact that if they passed their standard track moves and free in the past, they don't hold over now that they are in the Adult track. The ONLY area in which I do think it's a shame is money spent on the actual test. But skating is very expensive if you plan on competing (adult or not) so at that point, what's three more tests to pay for? I really don't think it's a bad idea NOT to grandfather, because...again money aside, it's either you can still pass the tests, or you can't. If you passed your Juvenile MITF 5 years ago and now you can't pass your Silver, then you SHOULD have to start all over again. Most skaters want to be held back to win competitions...what is the point in having your old tests hold over when you can't do the moves anymore? You'd be seriously hindering yourself, competing against people who HAVE recently passed those tests. If you can't pass the test now, no matter if you passed it before, then you shouldn't be skating at that level, there's seriously no point in it. That's like if I took my Senior tests and then took 5 years off and could barely do singles. I wouldn't have to take the tests over, but I'd have to be able to pass and surpass them before I'd even have a shot at being able to compete properly. The stuff on these tests are stuff you need, anyway. It's frustrating to do it all over again, yeah...but it's just gonna make you a better skater. It's worth the extra 6 months or however long you spend passing it. That's my opinion, but obviously I'm not in your shoes. Good luck to everyone either way. Those tests are passable, I swear!!

-FadedStardust

I'd also like to add one thing that I hope no one takes wrong but that I feel needs to be said:

I, like the rest of you, don't enjoy working on moves for an hour a day. I like working on exciting new spins and showy jumps. But even though the sport's changed, I think a lot of people forget what figure skating IS. Back in the figures era (which was before my time, but it doesn't mean I can't appreciate it) ALL the emphasis was on moves. ISU already did everyone a favor in cutting costs and time for practicing those figures by replacing the requirement with moves in the field, which in all honesty are a piece of cake compared to figures. But moves are an INTEGRAL part of skating. Especially if you don't plan on going to the Olympics, moves should come BEFORE the double jumps, before the axel, they should be more important, and you should want to do them, otherwise why are you skating and what about it do you like so much if you don't like the basic steps you'll use EVERY day once you learn them? I'm not talking just about the people on this board, but in general, I think it's sad for people to dislike doing such an integral part of their sport. You don't hear anyone complain about having to repeat freestyle tests. Just those "damn moves". How can you decide to go to Adult Nationals and not have enough time to work on your basic skills? It makes no sense to me. Could someone maybe explain their point of view? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks

-FadedStardust

It's not that your opinions are irrelevant, but until you've been in our boots, I take them with a grain of salt. The problem with your logic of "if you can't pass the test now, you shouldn't be skating at that level" is that USFSA forces you to skate at that level. If I passed my Juveile fs test 5 years ago or 20 years ago or 50 years ago (hyperbole, yes), USFSA will not allow me to skate any lower than SILVER! I don't have the option of adult testing up to my current skill level. USFSA forces me to take 6 separate tests in order just to compete! They want to consider your previous standard track tests only when it suits them -- when they want to force you to compete at a certain level. They will discount your previous tests when it suits you -- when you don't want to retest a bunch of skills. Personally, I agree that you should be required to compete at a certain level if you've passed the standard tests, but I also think you should be given "credit" for already passing them.

Most of the people who make the same argument you do about "if you did the skills once, you should be able to do it again" are overlooking two things. (1) The fundamental unfairness of it. (2) The difficulty of skating as an adult. Try juggling a full time job, kids, spouse, the responsibilities of every day living, possibly caring for aging parents, AND skating a few hours a week. Try dealing with wide hips, breasts that have nursed a child, muscles that dont' respond like they used to, and joints that argue with you all the time. We're not out to win the Olympics, but we want the opportunity to test and compete in a manner that is appropriate for ADULTS. We're not kids, no matter how much some may like to pretend we are. We contribute a great deal to individual clubs and USFSA as a whole. We take our skating seriously, sure, but we're really just in it for fun.

No, sorry, I should have qualified my answer. I think it is unfair that grandfathering is okay in one aspect (grandfathering the lower-standard Adult MIF in place of Standard tests), but not in another (grandfathering the harder moves into Adult tests).

Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that I *do* work on my basic skills. I split my time up equally amongst moves and freestyle. Always have, before the mandatory moves came into place. I recognize that they're important.

But ... I only skate 4 hours a week. I compete because it's challenging to put a program together, and it's a lot of fun to hang out with other adult skaters for a weekend. Adult comps are much more laid back than kiddie comps. So I *will* compete in adult comps, no matter what. How much progress do you think I can make in 4 hours a week, if I'm trying to put together a program and get it trained for a competition AND get a set of Moves ready for a test? The answer is, almost none. It takes most adults a long time to get Moves testable. It's a trade off. I can make good progress on my freeskating program, or I can make good progress on my Moves, but not both at the same time. As an adult, recreational skater, I think I deserve the right to choose. Those of us who want to place high in competitions will attend to the basic skating issue, trust me. "Skating" with flow, depth, etc. is usually what separates the wheat from the chaff in adult competitons. I routinely place ahead of adults who have harder tricks in their programs. I value skating, not tricks. But I don't think the USFSA should have instituted mandatory Moves for adults. (See previous post about why we're different, and why I don't think the "kid rules" are particularly appropriate for us.)

But adult competitions are all based on old tests anyways! If you passed your Novice Free back in 1970 and took thirty years off, you still have to compete Masters. There is no way to track who can no longer do the moves and who still can. That is too time-consuming and possibly prejudicial.

My complaint is the time and expense to do this. I have no doubt that I could pass all my Adult MIF tests. But it's very difficult for me to get to a test session since I work, and what precious practice time I can make it, to I prefer to work on freestyle and my Novice MIF. Doing the adult moves is simply a waste of time.

Hmmm? Let's see now....

Assuming Jocelyn's case but for my skating club...

$95 to pass Pre-Bronze, Bronze and Silver Moves
+ $95 to pass Pre-Bronze, Bronze and Silver FS test
+ extra coaching cost to go over the moves and patterns, etc.
+ extra coaching cost for lost time from going off on doing Novice Moves tests to do these tests.

I would not count JUST the cost of taking the tests! I would also add cost for coaching, travel, ice time, time to take off work to do test, etc.

Now does it sound economical to you? Don't know about you, but it sure scares me!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

And don't forget the cost of music cut to different lengths for the freestyle tests along with choreography. It's ridiculous to have to redo all of that stuff. Things could be really simplified if USFSA had just made the adult track to follow the standard track with Juv moves & fs equaling Adult Gold moves & fs. The freestyle tests nearly do, it's the moves structure that's the problem.

Back to moves, I never worked on "official" moves until I injured my back and decided to work on my gold moves. I eventually dropped them as a hopeless cause (I swear, that Novice end pattern in the wrong direction was going to be the end of me). I was not having fun, and it was costing me a fortune. I have plenty of footwork, etc, in my programs, and I prefer to focus on that with the time I have on the ice. I think it's having those choices (where we spend our time on the ice and our money.......since most of us are limited in both regards) that is important to most adults. I might think differently if I were younger, but at 50 it's all I can do to hang onto the skills I have.........not be thrown another hurdle.

I'm an adult skater. I have to admit that I love jumping and probably would be happy doing this entirely. Saying that, moves are coming in at a close second. I like the black and white of them. Either their right or their not. I like all the little pieces. (Head, shoulder, arm, hip, etc. Such a callenge!) The best part of moves is that they make you a better skater in every way. (You only have to look at a skater to see this.)Spins, jumps, and programs are made of moves. Effort well spent in my opinion. If you want to be taken seriously as a skater you need to work on them. Well, my opinion.I'm working on regular moves. No adult track. My coach feels that I'm capable of learning them, and I want to try. My skating goal is to progress, not pass tests. (This is just me.)

Chico

__________________
"I truly believe, when God created skating, he patted himself on the back."

If you aren't testing them, you are in the same boat with a lot of adults. The adult moves are not different from the regular track moves....they are just in a different order, some are skipped, and most are of a more difficult level for the corresponding freestyle level (such as the gold moves test is mostly intermediate moves, with a Novice move tossed in for good measure). Anyhow, just wanted to note that the adult moves series is made up of the regular track moves, not entirely different ones...and that the regular track is not somehow superior.

I hope your coach convinces you to test someday (but then, you know that ). It's the best way to gauge your progress and move forward. I like the sense of accomplishment.

I guess I will chime in. In terms of grandfathering and restrictions of testing levels I got the short end of the stick here. The Juvenile level is the one that gets whacked the hardest.

I passed Juvenile FS as a child (20 years ago) when there was no axel as a requirement. Consequently I am required to compete no lower than Silver. This means that I had to take 4 tests (took pre-B + bronze before the moves requirement) before I could ever step foot on ice at Sectionals or Nationals. That's $400 in tests + $$ for coaching for stuff I already passed 20 years ago. Had I passed even one more level as a kid I would go straight into Masters (and get my butt kicked, but that's another story)

But here's where it get's even wierder. Let's say I wanted to test moves on the standard track...My next moves would be Intermediate because they can't force me to back track after passing Juvenile FS. At the same time, I have to start from the begining on the adult track if I want to compete as an adult OR try to pass Intermediate moves and FS to compete in masters. So in theory a person like me could take Intermediate moves and Adult Pre-Bronze in the same testing session! How stupid is that?

So the arguement that if I could do it before, I could do it now, just doesn't hold water because the requirements have changed. I think it would have been fair to allow me to compete at Silver level (if that's where they want me, fine) but not force me to take all those tests over again. What for?

Now having said that, I think moves are important and I do like them. BUt I do resent the lack of grandafathering. If you took the cooresponding standard test (as a kid or adult) I don't think you should be forced to re-test.


Just my .02

I completely agree that not grandfathering standard track moves in place of the adult moves is ridiculous, especially when they are grandfathered in the opposite direction. But for those of you saying that moves are a waste of your time or you don't have time to do them, shame on you! After USFSA got rid of figures as part of qualifying competitions, we started seeing an explosion of "jumping beans", little girls who could do triple jumps but could barely hold an edge. Should figure skating really be only about the jumps? I would have thought most adult skaters would disagree with this.

Additionally, mastering the moves will make the fun, showy things, and jumps and spins a lot easier for you, and you will look prettier doing it.

Over the last spring/summer (April 2003-September 2003), I passed the following tests:
Pre-Bronze MITF and FS
Bronze MITF and FS
Pre-Juvenile MITF
Juvenile MITF
Silver MITF

I was going to take Intermediate MITF in November, but I had an injury and was off the ice for about 8 weeks. I will probably take those and Gold MITF, Silver FS, and Pre-Juvenile FS sometime in the next few months. I skate about 5 hours a week, and I am not just working on moves, but also learning new jumps and preparing for competitions. It can be done if you just work at it. I think it sucks that I have to pay so much $$ to take "duplicate" tests, but at the same time I also like it. Since the adult tests have a lower passing standard, I can use them as a "warmup" for the standard track tests. For example, I took adult Silver MITF and Juvenile MITF on the same day. I was a little wobbly for the silver (nerves) but by the time I got to Juvenile, I was more calm.

I also really like working on moves (I love slide chasses) and I feel they have really helped my overall skating a lot.

I believe that if you've passed preBronze and Bronze free, then you are at least grandfathered up to adult Silver moves. So, in order to meet the Silver requirement, you can skip Adult preBronze and Bronze moves, and take Silver moves and free to compete at Nationals.

I haven't seen anyone here say that moves are a waste of their time. But thanks for the chastisement.

No, and no one is saying that. You're jumping to conclusions. Those of us who are opposed to mandatory Moves are not necessarily opposed to Moves in general.

Very impressive, but atypical of adult skaters.

Once again: (1) I started testing Moves before they became mandatory for adults. I value them as part of my skating. But I am opposed to them being mandatory for all adults who want to test and compete. (2) Given the current state of the rules, I find the absence of adult-to-standard track grandfathering objectionable.

First, Michagan skater : Yes, I agree!

From fadedstardust "If you can't pass the test now, no matter if you passed it before, then you shouldn't be skating at that level, there's seriously no point in it."
That's the difference with adults. We are not as fixated on the winning, but more the skating. The "point" of it is to enjoy skating. As pointed out, these tests are quite a bit of money and time. Your argument is based on a kid skating viewpoint, and is shared by much of the USFSA. We need to have the adult program suit the participating actual adults, not a vague perception of what an adult skater should be.
I agree that moves "can" make a better skater, but it's not true that if a skater chooses (again adult word) not to spent what skating time and money they have on moves that they will not be "skaters" or "competitive".
I started as an adult and did not do figures or moves. I have not tested any since the adult moves structure was thrust apon us. I have no problem in putting my edges up against any adult at my level - moves or not.

Yes, and that's what I did. It was still 4 tests. Pre Bronze FS, Bronze FS, Silver Moves, and Silver FS. I did in fact take and pass all of these and I will be at Nationals Yippee! I can't wait. It was just a long time and several $$ getting there.

I was pointing out that now another skater with the same record could continue on the standard track and take Int. MITF while also persuing the Adult track and have to take Pre-Bronze moves. In fact even somebody who passed Int. MITF would still have to start at Adult Pre-Bronze moves because it's the freestyle test that determines in/eligibility. That's what doesn't make sense.

For me, that was the path I was told I had to take. I wanted to go to nationals, so I took the tests. I think they (USFS) could at least allow grandfathering of moves if not Freestyle. I kind of feel I got penalized for having passed a test as child that I'm not even capable of skating up to. (hate to admit that one) I have heard of some people who are now married (usng another name) and don't admit that they ever passed anything previously. Very bad. That's another discussion though.

On the other hand...

If they allowed grandfathering in a situation like this, it exposes a potention problem with someone younger who only took off from skating for college, turned 25 and now wants to compete as an adult. A juvenile competitor who kept skating and is now 25 would have a huge advantage over someone who learned as an adult or took off a few decades. While grandfathering might make it easier for a person like this, they'd probably breeze through the tests anyway.

So what should we do?

The grandfathering issue is one that should be brought up again to the adult committee. Maybe something like what the New York Classic does would be a starting point. They allow you to skate at your adult level if the "disqualifying" test occurred more than 10 years ago. I think we might see some older skaters reappearing on the scene if they tried this. In fact I know of a few that would.

The existence of the requirement to pass MITF as a prerequisite to FS I agree with, and would not want to see changed. I think that perhaps as adult skating evolves we might see other levels inserted into the structure much in the same way the standard track ended up with those pre-pre tests. Heck, there was a time when Novice was the first test.

It sounds like I may have offended you, and I apologize. The general feeling that I was getting from this thread was that *some* people didn't want to spend their skating time working on MITF. We are in agreement on the absence of grandfathering. Adults should have the option to test either Adult or standard track moves, and not have to do both. I guess I don't understand why you would be in favor of Moves, but not in favor of testing Moves. Testing Freestyle is a way to establish your competitive level. In the past Figures, and now Moves tests, are a way to establish the level of your overall skating ability. Lots of non-skaters that I know are amazed that there is even such a thing as skating tests! But that's how it has been for a very long time and I don't think it will change. It seems to me like adult skaters want to be taken seriously, in the same way as kid skaters. However, we can't have it both ways.

We adults can, and should be taken seriously and without having to conform to kid standards and a outdated program that does not fit who and what we are. Determining your skating level by figures and moves may have been done for a very long time for kids, but that does not mean that it is what should be done now for adults. Also, as far as "I guess I don't understand why you would be in favor of Moves, but not in favor of testing Moves". Working on moves and testing them are two very different things. Getting the moves in a state to test, exactly the way the judges think they should be requires a significant amount of time far beyond what it takes to master the elements themselves. One can learn the moves and improve their skating without going through the testing "experience".

I agree that we should not have to conform to kid standards to be taken seriously. Adult Nationals (which is a sign that someone was taking us seriously) existed prior to moves. If the goal is for adults to be like the kids they might as well ditch the adult structure and have us all take the standard track tests. The thing is, we aren't kids. The great thing about adult skating is that we consider everyone that puts on a pair of skates, a skater. Adults encourage one another at every level. The comments about adults needing to learn to skate did not come from the stands, but from non-adult skater judges and USFSA. The issue that irks me the most is that we were lied to by being told the moves would be optional, and supported it....and then the mandatory "twist" was added.

My goal is to skate like Flo...........she's awesome, and it's her presentation skills I'm after!!!!!!

Another thought on the "when are adults going to learn to skate" issue......how many low level kids have great skating skills at the pre-axel levels? Are there greater expectations from adults because we are bigger, the level of our skating is more obvious, and we are lacking in distracting "cute points"? Just curious.

I'm not sure that I agree with this either. If you truly have mastered the moves, you should be able to test and pass with no problem. If you and your coach feel that you have mastered the moves, but you are still unable to pass, you might want to arrange for a judging critique, so the judge can tell you what you are doing wrong. Most judges are happy to do this, and since they are volunteers it is free of charge.

Also, without testing, how do you really know that you have mastered the moves? You really do need to master the beginning moves to go on to more advanced moves because they build on each other. For example, if you can't do the Pre-Juv and Silver 3-turns in the field, how will you ever do the Juv and Gold double 3-turns?

Many clubs also offer incentives for passing tests, in the form of scholarships to support competition entry fees and coaching fees.

Hey, if you pass your Adult Gold moves, you get a gold medal! Not many skaters can say that they have a gold medal in a skating discipline.

As you can see, I am in favor of training and testing moves (though I do think that standard track should be able to be substituted for adult). I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Also, I haven't seen any of you skate, so I am not saying that anyone here would be a better skater with moves. I just know that for myself, my skating improved a lot once I started working on them.

As I noted in an earlier post on this thread, my coach believes the judges are harder on adults. She suggested that the judges would react to a 7-year-old with poor posture or wobbly edges (or more strokes/lobes than allowed) by thinking that it's because they're little and will grow into their bodies and eventually will be less awkward and more powerful. If a judge sees an adult with wobbly edges or awkward leans, their reaction is that adults should know better and that if they don't "send the message" that what the skater is doing is wrong now, he/she will never learn.

I wish Governing Council wasn't the weekend before my last week of b-school classes. Otherwise, I'd ask the president of my skating club to send me as a rep. Is the adult moves structure on the agenda for GC? Perhaps I'll visit the USFSA website and seek out an e-mail address for the adult chair/contact person and express my views (politely, of course ).

Debbie,
I'm sorry that this has been the experience with judges in your area. I have seen the same thing, judges passing tiny little girls who, although cute, don't really have moves at a passing level. Usually this happens at the beginner levels. I think that Juvenile is the level where they start really holding skaters accountable for not being able to do the moves up to standard.

I have also seen it the other way around--adult skaters that looked like they weren't able to do 1 or 2 of the moves, but passing anyway without a reskate. Both situations are unfair IMO.

I think that part of the reason this may be occurring is because the adult MITF are so new. Any time something new is introduced, there are growing pains. It's an adjustment for skaters, coaches, and judges. Hopefully with time this will change.

This is one of the issues with the adult structure........they don't build like the standard track does. It's made for an even more difficult situation for adults wanting to test adult moves. This was mentioned at GC, but pretty much ignored.

I doubt adult moves are on this year's GC agenda. Is anyone going this year, and if so, have you received a copy of this year's proposals yet? I'd be curious to know if there are any new changes being proposed for adults. I heard for the standard track a double axel will be required for Senior FS (if it passes, that is). That's all I've heard.

Where is this club, and how, where and when can I sign up?? Seriously, I've never heard of that before!! That's excellent if you have that opportunity.

I think you seem to be in a unique situation from most of us...you're duplicating tests because you want to. You want to do both tracks, and that commendable! But I am doing it because I HAVE to in order to skate Adult. Maybe you don't mind...but a lot of people DO.

People are just annoyed at the basic lack of sense in the whole Adult MITF structure, and the gray areas and confusion with grandfathering (or lack thereof!!).

And no, skating shouldn't be all about jumps, however, with the exception of say 10 to 15 Adult skaters in the COUNTRY (I could be off on this number, sorry if I am), we're not doing double axles and triples. It's just not a fair comparison....adult skaters with the "jumping beans".

As for the GC proposals, they aren't out yet, believe me, I am watching for them at my club!! As soon as I can get my hands on it, I can post what's on the adult agenda.