Thanks, Mel! At least I'd like to pass the bronze moves, the free skate would be tough on this timeline. But I'll keep plugging away. sigh.

And to everyone frustrated by slow progress, I am right there with you! I feel like I must be the slowest learner on the planet sometimes. But lately I do feel like my rate of progress is increasing, so perhaps there's hope. I can see progress month to month now, instead of it taking 6 months! i only hope it continues.

I have noticed too that the level of bronze skating has increased, but I also know a skater who is in class III who has really improved in the last 2 years or so! She's my inspiration because we're similar ages and I see how she's been able to progress. I wonder, though, if the moves test structure has now caused people to get stuck at bronze? People get stuck at pre-bronze because of the moves test and the dreaded backspin, maybe there's a snag in that silver moves test.

Well, good luck to everyone in their endeavors! And thanks, Raine, for starting this whole conversation.

Pat

Well, the top two Bronze I's in qualifier A are on their Intermediate and Novice moves, respectively, so I don't think Silver Moves are stopping them. I think the move from Bronze to Silver is an axel. To qualify out of Bronze I, you have to be a Silver without an axel.

However, that slide chasse sequence is a killer....

Erin
who has no need to win Bronze...I'll wait until Championship Gold!
who starts her silver moves this week.....

Actually, in some cases it's not the moves themselves, but findiing the time to do them and get them to where they are passing. I had a conversation at a competition this year with a Bronze Ladies competitor who is a very good and consistent skater (she was a medalist at AN this week). She told me that she didn't have the time to do moves. I can see her point in that you realistically have to make a choice whether you do competitions all the time or take time off to get tests passed. That's why I'm not competing this summer at all- plus I may have very little ice time, since our rink LOVES to cut freestyle time and increase the prices!

Raine - Sorry I missed you this year . I enjoyed meeting you in A2.

As far as people and the amount of time they skated - ITA with Michigansk8er...don't believe everything you hear and/or read. For the program, they asked how long you've skated. I answered "9 years as a kid, 2 as an adult". They chose to put 2 years in the program instead of 9/2 or 11. So it looked like I was competing at Champ Gold after skating 2 years

As far as your performances, I'm sorry you're not happy with them. Believe me, I am nowhere near thrilled with either of mine. Unfortunately, the judges were right in their placements in my case. However, I am determined to get the jumps I need solid so next year they won't be a question mark in my program. That's what competitive skating is all about....we set goals and try to reach them. If we do, great. If we don't, there's always next year.

Good luck - remember that we skate because it's fun (yes, it really is - even if we forget it sometimes.) Take a deep breath, and play for a while. Have fun!

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

The MORE the merrier... (Eh, that didn't come out right... I hope you know what I mean...)

Mel: I better pack a box of champagne glasses!!!

Re: finding time for Moves... well, in my case, I decided to forgo my FS stuff to fully concentrate on moves for now. I figured that if I build up my fundamentals well enough, then when it's time to work on FS again that I'll be better able to deal with it. Besides, I would like someday to have all sorts of nifty footwork stuff in my program!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Skateguard- Wow, intermediate and novice moves! I guess that's not that uncommon in the younger age groups.

Terri and Jazzpants -- I completely agree with the whole time thing. I've been spending 20 minutes a week working on only moves with another coach, and the concentrated time on nothing else helps a lot. But 20 minutes a week is obviously not enough. But on the other hand if I stop practicing jumps, I'll lose them. Maybe I'd get them back quickly enough, but I just hate the thought of losing any of my hard-won jumps. I'm such a creature of habit and practice, and there's just not enough time for me to do everything, unfortunately!

Jazzpants --Thanks for the welcome, so to speak!

Pat

Actually it is, at least in Bronze. Most bronzes started skating as young adults. (I started at 22; I'm now 29.) So they're usually beginners. But I don't see Intermediate or Novice moves as beginning skaters. (And one of them medaled in pre-gold dance!) And these ladies are both older than me!

If you passed your 3rd figure when you were 16 y.o., you are grandfathered into masters novice. That's why Carl was in Champ Masters Men at Easterns this year. (And yes, he's coming back next year! ) But his freestyle was bronze-level (waltz-toe, singles, half-lutz).

However, there were also some very good Bronzes I call "permabronzes" because for whatever reason, they are not ready to even learn the silver moves, even though they have been bronzes for years. One is a professional violinist, so she's afraid of breaking her wrists (and understandably so).

I'm just concerned that as the level of Bronze I goes up, that we will lose starts at that level. It has already dropped from 72 the last time AN's were in LP to 28 this year. I think that aging up, moving up, and the economy has had a lot to do with it, but it's also because we aren't getting a lot of new Bronzes into the fold.

Erin
Who will faint if there is only one group next year, but considering the number of girls who will be moving up, it's possible....

sk8er1964, I was lucky enough to see your Champ Gold skate on Wednesday night. It was very creditable, perhaps not your best performance, but your footwork is to die for... I was impressed with your cheering section, too!

Cheers,
Raine

And I had the pleasure of watching Championship Gold from my hotel room on Wednesday night! For those of you who weren't there, the 1980 rink on channel 22!

Hugs!
Danielle

ps) I am back now too!

Erin,

I have to say I agree with your worry. The number of starts has gone way down from when I started (1999 Adult Nationals was my first). I don't think people see that the numbers are really decreasing!

I realized after my first competition that I was obviously competing against people who had skated as kids. One local lady skated when she was a kid and just never tested so she skated bronze. She was a much better skater. It looked pretty ridiculous for her to go out, skate, and then have me skate afterward trying to compete against her.

Yeah, you could make an argument that I should skate for the love of it, but I'm naturally a very competitive person and after 7 years of skating, I kinda just gave up because I'll never win against these people!

For an example, on the front page of the USFSA web site, they say that the Gold medal winner for the Masters Men did a triple-triple combination...his scores reached into the 5s. This was unheard of when I skated nationals.....has nationals become an outlet for people who skated when they were younger? If so, then I'm afraid the numbers will continue to dwindle...and you can be as optimistic as you want, but I think people go to nationals to be competitive and we're all just finding that we can't be....

I started skating at age 28 (just FYI) and had attempted to pass my Silver test last year, but failed and now I'm stuck trying to get the moves and I'm upset because I just don't have the time to do both moves and freestyle.......plus I had a baby last year. But despite the baby, I think my desire to skate has been officially "squashed". I still love to skate, but there's no way I'm going to pay out the money to try and get to adult nationals where I'll end up competing against child skaters.......I look silly next to them, believe me.

Maybe after the baby grows up, I'll have the time to start more seriously again, but who will be competing when I'm older? Probably I'll have the same problem, trying to compete against someone who's been skating for 20+ years!

I don't have an answer, so I'll stop complaining.

Iskate,

I understand where you are coming from. I started skating at 25, and skated for approximately 2 years. I didn't get back on the ice until I was 45, orther than an occassional public skate. I'm definitely an adult skater...........and now find myself competing against women that are younger than my daughter, women that decide to not fess up that they tested ISI when younger, or that they skated at all because they are now married and who would know. I've heard logic, such as how skating as a kid shouldn't count if you are off of the ice 15 or 20 years, since it's like starting all over again. Baloney, it does too make a difference. I have a definite advantage having skated for a few years in my mid-20's..........and it's not like I was very good after 2 years of adult skating, but when I came back I had my jumps through flip in 6 months and I know that's because I could do them 20 years ago. That being said, skating as a kid has to help a lot, no matter how many years you were off. Just my 2 cents worth. As for mandatory moves, I still remember the USFSA membership chair at GC saying to pass mandatory moves would decrease adult membership, not help it grow. It's probably too soon to know, but he just might be right. It's hard to tell what's playing into the decrease in competitors. Probably a lot of different things.

Michigansk8er

PS: I'm competitive too. After awhile paying $60+ for competition fees for the fun of it, isn't that much fun. I'm not sure I'll ever compete again. If I do get back on the ice it will be just to learn new things and have fun with the feeling of accomplishment for awhile. I hope you will find a way to keep at it though........at least in some capacity.

Oh, ISkater and MichiganSkater, please don't stop competing.

I am extremely competitive (I was top of my class in high school because of it.), but I also understand that the Adult competitive structure is still growing and changing. (AN's are only 10 y.o., remember)

You two are examples of why we have to keep a "beginner" feel to the bronze event. Most kid skaters are usually grandfathered into Silver (juv or ISI 5 as a kid, I believe). I saw my group, and wow, talk about a competitive Silver I group next year!

But I don't think it's the stereotypical sandbagging. I talked to several skaters in my group who had solid reasons (jobs, first time at AN's, scared of the silver moves) to be bronzes instead of silvers. However, several of them would have been competitive in the Silver event. Go figure. I'd rather medal in silver than bronze, personally.

I watched the DVD of my group. I looked like I was sleep-skating, and I think I'm lucky that I didn't place last. Ugh. But looking at competitive Silvers in Bronze is so frustrating. I have a friend who is trying to get to KC, but I know that if the Bronze I event is as competitive as it was this year, she will seriously run off the warmup back to Chicago, swearing never to compete again. Not that she wants to win, but she'd be so intimidated.

All I know is I have never seen my coach so pissed off. Not that I got a placement I didn't deserve. (I feel I was judged fairly, mind you.) But that many of the girls I competed against were so far above the Bronze level that they could have _medalled_ in the Silver event. Bronze I has become "silver without an axel". And that's just going to prevent young, new skaters from coming into the fold who may have just passed their bronze free so they could go to AN's.

On my list of things to do this week is to mail one of the Mids champs in Bronze I (who couldn't afford to go to LP), and warn her about what to expect in KC so she can start working now to be competitive. I shouldn't have to be doing that!

I think the bottom line is that everyone at AN's should feel competitive at their level, and that's just not happening.

Erin
(if anyone feels that I'm a sandbagger next year, tough beans. I certainly won't be a pre-gold dancer with novice moves who is a bronze because I can't jump or spin.)

Skateguard:

I may have to stop competing because of a back injury. It's been a real setback, and I seriously don't know if I'll be able to get back into competition form again. We'll see................but first this fusion of mine has to heal. I have competed at AN (and medaled), so if I can't compete again, I'm still a happy skater. I don't want to compete, however, if I'm not in shape to be competitive (as in have a chance if I don't screw something up).

Michigansk8ter,

I'm sorry that your back is injured, but it's just awful that you feel like you can no longer be competitive at your level.

That's my point. There should be a place for everyone to feel competitive. And that's not happening in freestyle. And interp is too much of a crapshoot. Mixing silvers and bronzes/golds and masters are putting too much of a disadvantage on the bronzes and golds.

I don't feel competitive at my level in either freestyle or interp, and really wanted to quit skating when I received my interp results. I mean, to be behind silvers who fell, just because they (and here's a shock) skate like silvers?

Speaking of people who do not feel competitive, someone who passed her 8th figure as a kid (and is now in the re-named 56 to death group) may be surprising us at KC....stay tuned.

Erin

...56 to death group...

I feel positively Jurassic!!

And if they let the younger adults in then it will be Class V. Sounds like the Fujita scale for tornadoes!!

__________________
Keeping School Figures Alive!!

Michagansk8ter - Whatever you do - enjoy it. How about an interp with some great edges and style?

Hi, just joined the group and thought I would comment. I am a returning adult skater, I skated for many years as a child and I know it shows. Here is my problem though, I honestly cannot pass some of the MIF. I know that I should compete at least the silver level when it comes to freestyle but what can I do if I am having problems with alternating 3s? Additionally, I never tested as a child so I don't have to be placed at any level. Now, I have made the decision to wait because I know that these elements will come and it is unfair and unsportsman to compete against beginner skaters. So in the meantime, I continute to be able to land an axel but cannot pass the pre-bronze test!! But, I can do all the elements of Bronze....So, as you can see adult/child skaters also have their demons!

L

Gold*Blade-- My sympathies on the alternating 3's! I know you're in a difficult position, and I'm sure many are in similar circumstances. I don't know what the solution is, though! I suspect a lot of people get stuck on various moves, even though their freestyle level may be higher.

Good luck!

Pat

Erin - 56 to death group....hilarious!

Gold-Starblade - Yeah, I see your point. There was lady at my rink that had skated as a child and was required to skate Silver and really there was no way she could be competitive as Silver....so it's unfair to some child skaters as well...I guess that's why I said it's difficult to know what a good answer is. We're all in a odd situation as adults. I think the younger kids don't have this problem because, for the most part, they all started at around the same age (give or take a few years). I really appreciate your take on it, that you're waiting it out until you can compete at a level that is fair.......unfortunately for you, that means you don't get to compete now, maybe when you really WANT to compete.

It can't feel that great to win a gold medal against people who are obviously weaker skaters than you. I would want to win against people who I knew were strong competitors to myself, but I'm not sure everyone feels this way....seems like a medal is all that matters. There's a guy at my rink that purposely didn't test up because he was after a medal. Now if you're comparing that to the standard tests, you would say that the younger kids are definitely going for the medal, and so they would stay at a certain level until they've won.....I'm not sure why I expect it to be different for adults.....I guess I just do. But also I'm speaking from it being embarassing to compete against adults who are SO OBVIOUSLY better than me I guess I think it's unfair. It's not even skaters that skated as a kid...there's also adult skaters that have competed their whole lives in gymnastics, dancing, etc and they have a leg up too....One of the other ladies at my rink was a ballerina for many years with a local company and she was able to do an axel after only skating for 2 years! She had tremendous grace on the ice and there's no way I could've won against her either. So even if the powers that be figured out a way to fairly distribute the competition levels, they couldn't put all the "began as an adult" skaters together either and have it be fair.

However, the point is that adult skating is taking a downturn and it would be great to figure out why. As Erin said above, we are below half of the starts from 1999, 2000 Adult Nationals. When I competed there were 5 groups for Bronze I and now there are only 2. Similarly, there were 5 groups for Silver I and now only 2. Why the change? Is it really all economic? Can't be, because the number of adult skaters in my area has gone down as well....For my area though, I don't see a whole lot of support for adult skating from the clubs, so that could be it (I'm from the Seattle area). Seattle Skating Club cancelled their adult support several years ago, and Highland Skating Club is just slightly more supportive. I was on the SSC Synchro team and the club barely recognized us (and we were the reigning national bronze medalists!).

It seems the California clubs are better at supporting their adults. I see a lot of involvement coming from the Cali clubs still.

Sigh....

Can you all who are comparing starts numbers give the numbers and references? According to the numbers reported at the adult meetings from the registration there was steady to increased overall participation this last year. There will always be shifts in the number of starts within a level. With the moves being implemented in the last couple of years I would expect that there would be a decrease in the starts in lower levels. Instead of passing two test to be able to compete at Nationals, with the required moves it's 4.

Flo,

The USFSA Web site only lists the last 2 years for Adult nationals:

For 2003, Bronze 1 had groups A,B and C
Silver 1 had groups A, B

For 2002, Bronze 1 had groups A, B and C
Silver 1 had groups A, B and C

Prior to that for 2001, if you do a web search for Adult Nationals 2001, you'll find winners listed for:

2001 Bronze 1 group D although I wasn't able to find out how many in Silver 1

For 2000, I found someone who had won her group D in Silver I.

The numbers that I posted for 1999 and 2000 were from memory. I remember that there were 5 groups for Bronze 1 and just as many for Silver 1 (because I was thinking about moving up).

The numbers in the individual levels are shifting, and to be expected. When I first competed in bronze there were 70 + of us, and relatively few at the higher levels. However we also need to look at the overall participation numbers to get the total picture. I also don't see al lack of support from the clubs around here on the east coast. Our adults are well supported - in fact we delayed our departure to Lake Placid because one of the kids in the club was organizing the send off party for us. The skill level of our adults ranges from no test to gold. The best way to get support for the adults is to be active in the club. We are officers and board members, and quite supportive of the club.

I think one also has to look at outside circumstances...many of which it is probably hard to attach numbers to.

Economy... how many people couldn't afford to attend due to $$$, or worry about their jobs or their spouses' jobs?

The unpleasantness abroad... There may well be some normal attendees who are pulling military duty abroad, or just returned from military duty abroad (where they had no access to skating skating rinks), or are getting ready for deployment.

Location...

And so forth...

Flo,

Interp is in the back of my mind as a possibility to consider..........but I'll wait to see if I can jump again. Heck, if I can skate again. Still a lot of unknowns. I have skated interp before, and ended up dead last. One judge told me afterwards that I had the highest score technically, but the lowest for presentation (probably that "deer in headlights" look of mine). Gee, I'd think that would mean middle of the pack then, and not dead last. Aargh!!!!!

I do think for me, I need to have one focus. I just don't have time to get both a freestyle and interp program up to where I want them (and I skate a lot, when I'm skating). I'll do one or the other, and give it my all.

Thanks for the suggestion. If I skated like you do, it would be an easy decision.

I think this is why that adult skating survey was created...to get to the truth. I would love to find out the results of the survey, myself.

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!