I guess my issue with CoP is they look for things like features and levels, and those aren't part of the 6.0 system.

I think that's part of why the girl who can put her blade on top of her head wins more than the girl with nice centered less exciting spin.

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However, judges under CoP don't assign levels or identify features. That is the role of the technical caller - normally a coach. The judges are told what the element is and assign their -/+ based on the rules (ie a fall is automatic -3 on an element and if a judge gives a 0, you can bet that he/she 'dropped the pencil' at that point!)

So CoP judges using the 6.0 system evaluate elements more consistently when comparing all skaters in a flight.

So how do you know which competition has good judging? In regards to the OP, I have heard that some rinks promote their skaters by placing them high even if they don't skate as well, kind of like PR. ANd also at some levels that the only requirement is "skating experience". Coach said that under that even I could be a judge. And trust me all I can do is glide on one foot yes but still only that. I am so worried that DD's first comp is going to be like that. How demoralizing because she would never be top since our rink does not, nor probably will not for a few years, host a comp!

Falen: perhaps you can do with your dd what I do with my younger skaters. I NEVER let them see where they placed (unless they medal) and both skater and parent have to agree to that or else I will not enter them in a competition. Each time my skaters go out to compete, they have their own individual goals...a dream goal (land that loop or hold that spin)..and a realistic goal (land two jumps)...and know what is expected of them (hold spirals, head up, arms out, skate strong, get up fast if they fall, smile and have fun)...We debrief immediately after they skate, going over what was well done and how many goals were met...and then later, when the excitment is over we discuss how to improve for next competition. Parents find it less stressful when results are not factored into the equation -- and the skater has a more positive experience!!

Our club competition used to list results for only the top 3 skaters in each event, so that no one knew who ended up last.....

When my skaters are entered into a club competition where the judges are skaters/parents/volunteers and not trained to judge the sport properly, I always ensure that both my parents and skaters understand that it is the quality of their performance that is important - not the placings - and that if the results are not to their liking, then next time they should not enter the events. Club competitions are just the beginning and most of my skaters are on the competitive track to qualifying events, eventually, so they better get used to not winning at an early age!

Great advise. How to impement is another story.

OP do you think that this might have happened to your dd? My dd will compete in her first soon and this post was NOT what I wanted to see!!

I don't know - not letting them see the scores is like keeping them wrapped up in bubble-wrap because they are too fragile to face the real world, imo. My daughter has competed in many sports (soccer, gymnastics, skating) and she has placed all over the place, and she learned from placing last, or second to last, just as much as placing near the top. If you keep them from seeing the placements, how are they ever going to deal with not getting into the college of their choice, or not making the team, or anything else? Learning to handle the valleys is much more important than celebrating the peaks. Life is never fair, after all, and the kids need to learn that it's only a sport too, not life and death, and it's OK to be last. Someone is always last!

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Well, that's a great idea, but it wouldn't work here where the score sheets are posted on the walls of the rink somewhere fairly obvious, and everybody rushes up to look!

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Mrs Redboots
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Mrs. Redboots: The scores are plastered all over the place here as well - although there is usually one wall with flight lists and skating order and the results are placed over that. So my skaters/parents know to stay away from that area of the rink.

BTW I do tell the skater what their placing was during our next lesson following the competition - if they want to know. This is after we have debriefed on site, and then discussed how the skater could have done better (ie head up, not zoned out, held a spiral etc. - things that can be fixed) - and what we are going to aim for in training for the next competition. At that age - everyone forgets their even was a competition by the next week and placing is not such a big issue. However, the skater still has that warm and fuzzy feeling about their competitive skate, which gives them more confidence the next time they face the judges!

Schmek: I don't hold back results from my more experienced skaters at all. The skaters I am referring to are entering their first few low low low level competitions - the bunny hop set, where there are no double jumps or even axels. I have seen too many skaters that enter a pre-pre preliminary or LTS competition and win win win!! Then when they move into the real figure skating competitive world, where tests are a requirement for entering, the skaters and their parents just can't handle the fact that they didn't win this time. So I like to give my new skaters a good feeling about their first low level competitions and have them learn to compete for themselves - not ribbons or medals. A very valuable life lesson!

My strategy has worked very well over the years. Most of my skaters compete beyond their years as I don't believe in holding back a skater to win at the low levels. They take pride in the fact that while they may be the youngest in a competitive level - they can keep up because the goal is to skate THEIR best. All of my competitive skaters have reached the national level - all have completed their gold tests very young and none of them have ever been discouraged for more than a minute when they didn't place where they wanted at a competition.

Of course, some of my students always end up at the bottom of their flight - but since the CoP system came into use - they can see how well their skating has improved by the point value given. So they came last - but were 3 points better than last competition - and just .5 from winning a medal.

I'm paraphrasing, and I know it is still evolving, however, in Canada, the lower level skaters (LTS to most of you, Canskate to Canadian) - they are proposing eliminating "competitions against each other for placements" and having them skate to a standard. Everyone does their elements; they are measured agains the standard; and they are awarded Gold, Silver, Bronze standard, which tells them how they are progressing. Everyone could get gold; everyone could get bronze; you can get a mix. It makes sense to me ... ordinals don't make sense, as in a strong flight, you could end up last with a skate that could end up in first in another flight, and they don't know what needs to be improved upon. It makes sense to me.

I LOVE this idea!!!

Skating against a standard sounds like skating against the book- didn't USFS recently do away with that? (That is if you are the only one in the event, you'll win it?)

I know ISI still has skaters against the book, and have heard of many who have not won a gold medal.

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I also LOVE this idea for the LTS levels.

It's simple and effective plus it offers the opportunity for some feedback for the coaches/skaters. The organizers don't have to divide by age group or gender - all the USFS Basic 5 skaters skate "against the book" so to speak.

Ordinals really are confusing for parents and when they're mixed, they become meaningless as prior posters have stated. I preferred the ISI method of giving out the total point values to rank the skaters. The "book skater" was 90% of the total points, so I likened it to "getting an A grade" in a performance.

I also believe the USFSA Basic Skills did away with "skating against the book." I think if there's only one skater in a group, they automatically get a win. I'm not even sure if the judges watch the skater and make notes. It would be nice if it were an exhibition at least, so the skater could get comments from the judges on what to improve and what is really good. That feedback is vital. It gives the judges a break from being ... judgemental, lol.

I wonder how you estimate the number of medals needed for competition events if there are six skaters in Basic 5 who could conceivably all get Gold, Silver, Bronze or a mix? (That's why most Clubs don't put the year on medals anymore; if you have extras left over, you just save them for next competition and give them out then.)

Can an ISI or USFSA Basic Skills competition use a judging system OTHER THAN 6.0 Ordinals? I know that one of our in-house competitions in NYC offered a "feedback only" option for the skaters, even those with competitors. The skater wasn't eligible for a placement, but the judges gave them feedback on their skating. This was about four or five years ago, before skating against the book was eliminated.

I'd love to know if there are any competitions in the US who've tried the CanSkate approach to judging.

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I think they propose certificates. Which I like myself; the medals get lost, you can frame or scrapbook a certificate. We've got piles of medals that we can't remember what competition they were for ... unless we get them engraved ...

they are also recommending eliminating "solos" for LTS. Which would cut costs for parents ... and have the kids focus on skill development

My DS was evaluated this way in a music competition, and at first I thought it was a little soft, but after watching the event, I was sold on the idea. The evaluator also gave a few pointers to each competitor to help him/her improve for the next time. There was a very positive 'vibe' to the whole thing.

I could see this working for the early skating stages as well. In our house, it was as much about the costume and getting to perform (and pizza at a rink!) as about the competition.

I don't know if that would fly. I've never had an LTS student who didn't want to dress the part and skate a solo to music. I think once the student reaches say Basic 6, the "compulsory moves" events are considered as add-ons, but rarely does a student show any interest in only entering that event.

I also think it would be really intimidating to have a skater's first solo program be in "No Test" unless it was a test track event. I saw someone do an HUGE axel in a No Test event a year or so ago. Just eclipsed the competition with that move. That would discourage a lot of recreational skaters, I think.

Below Basic 6, I think doing the "compulsory moves" / skill development approach works fine. One of the Clubs I taught in had an annual competition like that. It was very low-key - the skaters warmed up in a coned-off area at one end of the rink. Each skater was escorted individually to the judges by one of our pros. She then led them through the elements one at a time. The judges evaluated each element, gave a score and a comment. At the end, the skaters placed based on the scores and they kept copies of the judging sheets.

I really like the "skating against the standard" idea though because it sets a good tone for sportsmanship - you're not competing against a real person, you're trying to skate YOUR best against the standard. It's a learning opportunity in how to compete. I like it.

It simplifies the competition and saves a lot of money. The events take less time on the ice. An LTS skater can compete without ever having a private lesson from a coach. Older skaters might turn their nose up at it unless the entire competition was structured in that way.

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My dd competed against the standard in competitive ballroom dancing. The judges watched the dancer and then awarded 1st 2nd 3rd to the dancer based on judging against the standard. I remember once when she was the only little one out there, dancing with her partner - the judges placed her 1st and she came home with this huge crystal plaque that said - 1st against the standard! Sort of like trying a compulsory test in skating where the judges are supposed to evaluate your dance/skills/moves/freeskate against the rulebook standard.

Judging to a "standard" also helps in areas that are underpopulated/categories that are underpopulated. My son regularly "won" medals just because there were only 1, 2 or 3 boys skating. It was discouraging (hey! I came last and I got a medal, and because the girls would remind him that he didn't really WIN, he just didn't have anyone to skate against - which caused resentment when club comp results were posted ! ), and it also didn't give clear evidence of progression or frankly how he was doing against others at his level; he could be miles off the level and still come home with a medal. His coach and thus indirectly "us" could measure him, but, for a young kid, it's not an easy concept. If he was to receive, say, a "participation" because his skills weren't up to the level, or a "gold" for when he was right at the level, it would help show if he was progressing. In areas without a lot of skaters, it can be hard for them to figure out how they are doing for the same reason ... they see the same small group of kids, and they are thus judged against a tiny pool which can be quite unrepresentative of what they might see in a bigger area.

Imagine if we used 'the standard' to judge the LTS & pre/preminary competitions? In some flights, there are so many really good skaters that get lost in the marking, while in another flight at the same level - the winner can be a skater with lower skills than the last place finisher in the first flight.
Draws aren't always fair. Imagine if the judges could award 1st against the standard - and most of the flight won? A true evaluation of the skills and abilities at that level. And, the second flight? Perhaps only a couple would receive 3rd against the standard. Just a thought.

just wondering.....but exactly what is wrong with coming in last. Someone has to place last if someone's going to place 1st. My daughter dances competitively as well as skates and the dance competitions are weird. The awards are platinum, high gold, gold, and I think there is a silver but not sure. It's based on a set of points added together from a number of judges and if you meet those points, you win the respective award. Personally, I think it's just totally useless! We were at one competition where every dance received high gold and only the senior level skaters received high gold.

At least after a skating event, your child knows what to work on to improve. I don't have a problem with placements - if the skater did well, they are happy, if they didn't, after a few tears, it builds character! IMO, Learning to lose graciously is as important if not more, than learning to win graciously. (this goes for the skaters and the parents!).

I don't think anyone has an issue with coming in last- the issue is that no one knows what the judges are looking for because every judge looks for something different (is it better to have a BIG sloppy jump, or a small technically correct one? Slow but nice edges, or fast but mostly on flats with toe picks scratching).

So the skater's DON'T know what they need to improve because each competition the standard is different.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

It's also a factor with ordinals that you don't know how far off the pace you might be (or might not be). With points, you know if you are within a few points or if you are a huge gap away from being up with the top. In a flight of 5, 4 might be at a hugely higher level in capabilities, and the 5th skater not even close to being competitive ... but you can't tell the disparity. You might also have all 5 within minimal margins ... but you can't tell that.

When I skated, the ISI used to post the judge's points, which was useful to the skater and coaches. You could SEE how many points you pulled in and how they added up, so it gave a target - "I'll fix my wonky camel and get more points next time."

Most ISI Clubs did away with those postings because too many coaches/parents were questioning the scoring. "Well, why did my skater get a lower score than this one?"

It had another side benefit: it added what they now call "transparency." That made it easier to spot mistakes in a mostly-manual system.

During an ISI competition many years ago, my youngest niece skated against a girl from our home club plus three or four girls from the host rink. My niece won, but something seemed odd because the other girl from our club came in last. I didn't think my niece skated that well and expected her to get at most, second place. The other girl from our club had skated really well but her points were so low that I assumed she forgot to do something. I didn't coach either of them, I was just chaperoning and competing.

I asked to see the detailed judge's score sheets, just to clear the issue. (Cost me $20, because it was considered a "protest.") The tallies were done with adding machines - the accountants took the three judge's sheets and added the scores together to come up with the total scores.

For the other girl from my club, they had missed one judge's score sheet entirely.

They made good on the mistake and apologized, plus they refunded my protest money because it was a valid protest, lol.

It seems like coaches really can't say anything if something seems "off" during a Basic Skills comp. For example, if a skater does something from a higher level, there's supposed to be a penalty. Each event has a set of required elements, but if a skater doesn't perform it, they lose those points. Neither issue is reflected on the ordinals, which is the only thing most skaters/coaches see after a competition.

I think that, when there's an issue with the program itself (the skater forgot something, did something from a higher level, etc.) there should be a way to notify the skater's coach. Otherwise, the assumption is that "you were outskated" and the program continues to be performed, as is, setting the stage for a season of disappointments.

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Nothing, but these kids get virtually no feedback on why, and at times it is perplexing to everyone involved as to why some are ranked how they are ranked along with the constant disparity between judges in the 6.0 system.

Yes, and I have seen that happen even more in test track events. Like you say, the coaches are not even told that the skater is doing an illegal element etc.

this made me think of something. Gymnastics, at the lower levels, the kids do compulsory routines. Everyone does the same routine on each apparatus. It is not until the higher levels that the kids and coaches begin to choreograph and perform specific customized routine based around their abilities.

It's pretty boring to watch but it does allow for objective judging, sometimes, and you really can give the gymnast feedback. It's similar to the compulsory competitions in figure skating. Usually it's obvious why a skater doesn't place as well, or places high in this event.

I'm sure figure skating will never adopt the same method as gymnastics but it's not that bad of an idea, in my opinion.