[QUOTE=TimDavidSkate]Age:

Height/Weight/Body Type:
5 ' 7/120lbs/skinny-slim

Most difficult jump you can do most of the time (if applicable):
1Axel (as of 9/15/05)

Boots:
SP Terri KT3

[QUOTE]

You are wearing KT-3's, not KT-2's? I thought those were for guys who were 180 lbs and doing triple axels!

[QUOTE=doubletoe][QUOTE=TimDavidSkate]Age:

Height/Weight/Body Type:
5 ' 7/120lbs/skinny-slim

Most difficult jump you can do most of the time (if applicable):
1Axel (as of 9/15/05)

Boots:
SP Terri KT3


I like 'em stiff. I have been used to hard boots when I was a teenager and competing alot. I was throwing in 2axels and 3sal attempts. Nowadays I stay away from them since I went sideways and hit my head on the 2ax.

* I completely creased up my KT3 at the moment, that I think in the near future (8 mos) I would have to get them stiched up or use duct tape again*

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Tim David's Website

Tim, when did you pass your Juv Free?

In this thread from March of this year, you said you never passed Juv or Pre-Juv. old post

So did you just pass your Pre-Juv and Juv? Are congratulations in order?

I did, from winter to spring of 2000.

I received an email asking me, why I did not do any Gold Championship events.
Reason was: I was told that last year's rules: "You cannot grandfather to these events (Eastern & Nationals)" by 2 judges. I had to take my Adult tests. (I was also told from USFSA representative)

Another reason for me to back out also was, I was not in shape.

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Tim David's Website

So you competed in Bronze, even though you'd passed Juvenile free? Dude, that's not cool! Competitors in Bronze could not have passed higher than Preliminary! You weren't eligible to compete in Bronze.

Under last year's rule, I was told (USFSA judges, official), that my standard tests did not matter. Believe me I rather do the gold level and do a longer program. Since I was traveling hundred of miles from the east coast.

I hope the topic of sandbagging will not come into place. If you see my competitive record and if you would see my skills on the ice you would see that I am very inconsistent.

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Tim David's Website

Perhaps you misunderstood what you were being told, or perhaps you didn't ask the right question. Your standard tests do not grandfather you into adult competition (i.e., they don't qualify you on their own to compete), but they sure as he** matter as to what level you may skate. The announcement for AN and the rulebook both state that you cannot have passed higher than preliminary to compete in Bronze. You signed the application form, which obligates you to follow the rules and which also included a statement about what tests you've passed. Did you state your Juvenile test on the application?

Your competitive record has no bearing on this. However, there's no way to pretty up the fact that you lied about your test level in the March posting, which was in response to a question about your eligibility. Why did you do that?

Dare I say what everyone else is thinking? If you have passed Juvenile Free, you do not deserve your medal from Adult Nationals. It doesn't matter if it was an oversight on your part (hard to accept, since the info is readily available) or intentional. The real Bronze men got screwed.

My friend was the one who got the Silver medal in this event, so I have been watching these post. Not sure if I should tell him this or not. Sounds like he deserved the Gold!

You know the funny thing is... you WERE eligible to compete as a Gold level guy (...or at least Silver!) You were GROSSLY mis-informed!!!

To wit:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/05Adults-ROA.pdf

This was the ROA from last year which goes into effect 2005-2006 (this skating year.) Note that the change to the competition are only WRT the FIGURES test, not the standard FS or Adult track test. I would like you to read the following relevant parts...

Adult Gold Free Skating – rule 3780
The adult gold free skating test and no higher than the standard juvenile free skating test or the ISI freestyle 6, or prior to Oct. 1, 1977, the 2nd figure test.

There's more!!! Read this!!!

Adult Bronze Free Skating – rule 3800
The adult bronze free skating test and no higher than the adult bronze free skating test, the standard preliminary free skating test or the ISI freestyle 4, or prior to Oct. 1, 1977, (was: the preliminary figure test; now: the 2nd figure test.)

Adult Silver Free Skating – rule 3790
The adult silver free skating test and no higher than the adult silver free skating test, the standard juvenile free skating test or the ISI freestyle 5, or prior to Oct. 1, 1977, the 2nd figure test. (No change on the Silver figures level.)

According to this, you were DEFINITELY NOT ELIGIBLE to compete as a Bronze FS level skater!!! If I were you, I'd do the honorable thing and deal with it honestly with the USFSA!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Ooops! Just realized that I already filled in mine... so I'm taking this one off the thread. Sorry!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

The juvenile test is definitely a strange beast: it really is (or was; I'm not totally up to date with the current--as of 9-1-05--rules) a disqualifying stricture. By having this standard test, you are not allowed to compete in bronze or silver, but you have to have those test under your belt to take the gold MIF/FS tests in order to be able to compete.

I'm sure there were a few misunderstandings regarding testing and eligibility, but really, ignorance is no excuse, or at least shouldn't be overlooked. As the doyenne of USFS rulebooks, skaternum is fair in her commentary.

At any rate, I hope the new rules in place will help obviate and dispel the miasma of misinterpretations that seem to still be hanging in the adult skating camp. (OK, the use of 'miasma' was a bit over the top, but I like the darn word. )

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

As a skater who has been working my butt off to get to 2006 nats as a BRONZE skater it is rather frustrating that someone can misunderstand the rules and I have to skate against them! How can my 17 months of skating compare!

Well in the Marines we had a word for this...Integrity!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

Hells to the no! Not over the top at all. Two points for use of the word miasma!!

Frank

It's not quite THAT bad; the juvenile FS test does preclude an adult from competing at bronze, but silver FS is allowed. It does disqualify one from silver pairs, however.

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Where are those knives when I need them?
----------------------------------
I need a detachable left foot!

Or the ones that have been working YEARS for this!!! (in my case about 6.5 years -- and I know others who have been working longer for it...) And I'm STILL not there yet!!! The pre-Bronze skaters who wanted to go to AN are probably peeved that the rules apply to pre-Bronze skaters are enforced but another set of rules are not enforced by USFSA.

Of course, there are those who sandbag but get around the rules by not testing, but that's another can of worms!!!

And NoVa... b/c of you I have Webster on my bookmark!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Yes, you are inconsistent. Sometimes you compete in Gold, sometimes Bronze, sometimes Silver...

Oh wait, you were talking about your skating skills. Oops...

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Whatever!

Yes ... to be more precise, he skated gold for Peach (Sept. '04), silver for New Year's (Feb. '05) and Winter Classic (March '05), and then bronze for AN (April '05). Huh? Who does that, regressing in skating levels? Onward & Upward switches to Backward & Downward. Hopefully, the testing levels issue will be resolved (for everyone making the transition from young adult/standard track) in a fair and peaceful manner.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Amen, sister!!! I'm one of them!!
BTW- I have Encarta on my computer for clarifying NoVa's choices of words!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

It seems that there are some negative people here who still have more time to research , gossip and speculate about other skaters instead of focusing on their own skating. I have been reading these forums for awhile and have seen the same people who bashed one particular poster a few months back for their views turn right around and have a negative attitude towards other posters.

I think I was robbed B I G time at nationals, but I am not going to post endless amount posts crying about being screwed. I am back in the rink to try to make sure that there will be nothing left to interpretation next year - and if it doesn't happen next year , then I will be back in the rink to try again the following year.

This is a skating forum , not a witch hunt - go to the rink and skate and try to be happy!


Angelo

Significantly, your issues are different; Tim's involve eligibility.
Judges marks may be subjective, but eligibility is pretty much an open and shut case.

While you believe that certain people here are bashing, I think it is fair to question a skater's actions because such actions affect all of us. For example, why bother skating and trying to be competitive if some skaters who are clearly at a higher level are "sneaking" into lower levels. It upsets the balance of the adult skating community (and may give the perception of being disingenuous, dishonest, deceitful, mendacious, and unsportsmanlike). Questioning and bringing to light such issues is appropriate, IMHO.

No one has outrightly accused Tim of lying. But on the AN form, it asks what is the highest level that has been passed. If Tim did not list juvenile, that is one issue, but if he did, then this brings up the the possibility that the entry process for Adult Nationals was flawed in that it didn't catch the mismatch between test level and event entered. Many skaters might find this just a little disturbing, no?

Yes, this is a forum ("a medium of open discussion or expression of ideas" the last time I checked), where issues--important and seemingly trivial--can be discussed. What it boils down to is that we all want to have fair competition at adult nationals (and at every competition).
Just my $0.02.

(Not that this is necessary, but I'd like to say that while you skated well at nationals, I think your placement was very fair.)

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

I think that Tim explained everything that happened here. Tim was informed by 3 different people from the USFS that Bronze is the level he needed to be in at Adult nationals. This was extremely disappointing to him as he did not want to waste his money to travel across the country only to skate a shorter program. Skating a longer and more competitive program has always been more important to him than holding back just to bring home a silver platter. However no matter what explanation he gives - it still will not be good enough for some people who are ready to jump on him and make snarky comments at a moments notice.


I was at the awards ceremony and video taped all of the men on the podium and I must say that when we all came home and watched the whole thing all over again, some very nasty and unsportsmanship-like comments were coming from your friend. That was totally uncalled for - we were all shocked. Not since Surya in '94 have I seen anything like that!




you are entitled to your opinion - that's fine and it doesn't really matter to me anyway. I was disapponted with the placement in the moment and we have all watched and rewatched the tapes again and will I certainly will try again next year. If I never bring home a medal again, I will certainly be very satisfied with what I have accomplished with my skating already.


Anyways, I'm off to the rink!
Happy Skating everyone and please just remember why we all started skating in the first place. It was to have F U N ! I know for me, it was to learn difficult jumps and spins - not to mention I also get to wear sparkly costumes!

No matter what it all boils down to this:
By passing his Juvenile free in 2000 (as I read from a earlier post) Tim broke the rules of eligilbility by entering the Bronze Mens event at AN this past season.
Never mind what the 3 different people told him about Bronze being the level he neded to be to compete at AN, his passing the Juvenile free disqualified him from that from the get go.
The bottom line is- he cheated in a big way, not only the Bronze men who competed with him in KC, but those of us who play by the rules (I'm one of those Pre Bronze skaters who can't go to AN until the Bronze tests are passed).
I've also read something on his website that states that he'd only go to AN to be competitive- makes me wonder at what cost?
I'm off to the rink too- for a club board meeting!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

No, he didn't explain anything. First of all, why does he need to ask people at USFS whether he can enter Bronze? It's all over the AN announcement. It's in the rulebook. And secondly, the answer you get depends on the question you ask. If the question was whether his standard track tests entitled him to skate Adult, the answer is correctly given as no. Was that the question that was asked?

Irrelevant.

It's not like this started out as a witch hunt or anything, but I daresay he invited these questions himself. It's the old "glass houses, throwing stones" thing. He berated another poster here, questioned his eligibility, and engaged in juvenile (little 'j') name-calling in his journal after Nationals. He posts a journal online and posts frequently in this public forum; it's not like a lot of research was required. So now he's caught giving 2 conflicting responses to questions about his own eligibility. Is he dishonest, or just confused?

It's very convenient that when he's the one questioning a skater's eligibility, it's allright, but when he's the one being questioned, it's a witch hunt!

If he failed to put his Juvenile tests on his entry form, he lied and was ineligible to compete at Bronze. (If you need to be convinced as to why this is a Bad Thing, you need to go back and talk to your momma about right and wrong.) If he did put the Juvenile tests on the entry form, AN needs to take a good look at how it processes entries, because they're screwing it up. Either of these scenarios is unpalatable to many in the adult skating community.

To quote Tim himself from one of his posts questioning another skater's eligibility: "Great guy or not, I'm sorry, but that is one spot XXXX has taken up on the podium. It should have gone to a deserving Gold Men's skater." The question remains as to whether he should have substituted the word "Bronze" for "Gold."

The way I recall it, all he did was jokingly make a comment about "we shouldn't have let the younger guy join us" as Tim was class I and the others were class II. They were all contacted about letting Tim skate with them as there were no other Bronze I men. They all agreed, not problem..which they didn't have to. He was joking about it when the event was over. Hardly "nasty and unsportsmanlike".

I'm not going to say anything to Scott about this as it serves no purpose so you can tell you friend not to worry and so there is no need to bash my friend here.

I have to say that I'm really appalled by the discussion that's taking place here (and looks like it's starting to get dragged into other threads). Maybe not everyone is familiar with the term, "Innocent until proven guilty." I'm not involved with either party, but it seems to me like a lot of assumptions are being made against Tim. He hasn't come back to defend himself, and I think that's probably in his best interests...maybe he's talking to some of you via PM, I don't know. But for me, the issue is this.... internet message forums are not here to drag somebody's reputation through the mud. If anyone has serious allegations to make, why don't you just take it up with the USFSA?

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~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~