There are several potential problems with the Pro-Filer and the Ultima Matrix interchangeable blade runner system. I find I can't do a good job of sharpening mine without taking them out of the mount cause the holder gets in the way. But the replaceable runners are held in by what I think are soft aluminum bolts, which are easily damaged during mount and dismount (both the hex key heads and the threads).

I assume you know that Jackson/Ultima no longer makes them - so if you like them, buy all the runners of the type and size you like while stores still have them in stock. Good idea to buy an extra set of bolts too, which you can still order from Jackson, last I knew. (AFAIK, no one else makes blade runners that fit the Matrix mount. Though Ultima makes similar blades that mount normally.)

Nonetheless, I like sharpening my own.

That said, many people don't agree with the way Pro-Filer says to sharpen.

Sid Broadbent, an engineer who sells sharpeners of his own design through of http://www.iceskateology.com, and who once got a grant from USFSA to do technical blade research, says their way makes no sense at all. He feels having that thin edge extend down into the ice must slow down the blades (not my experience, but my skating technique may be poor, I find the extra bite makes it easier to go fast). He says a proper sharpening need not remove any more metal than the pro-filer technique - if I remember right, once the blade has been sharpened once on a given wheel, you only need remove 2 or 3 thousandths of an inch each time after that, which is about what people who have measured Pro-Filer results have claimed for their technique.

I haven't used Pattern 99's, but if they have 1/8" of metal to use, that should be about 40-60 sharpenings.

In another thread, one of this forums real engineers, Rusty blades, didn't think the Pro-Filer sharpening technique was a good idea either

http://skatingforums.com/showthread....ine+shop+filer

To each their own.

Unfortunately none of this helps the O.P. I would love to know what the sharpener tells her.

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Mitch Grunes ModifyingBoots FallingGently HomePage

They are still listing matrix blades on their website, maybe it's a "new improved" type??? As far as the bolts go, if you have a mechanical mind, I'm sure you can find a supply from somewhere that is made out of stainless steel instead of the aluminum (or have you done this already, you are pretty crafty at doing stuff like this).

My old coach said "what's old is new again" because she used to tell us about this very system that was popular when she was a child skater....until they were discontinued!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I have a pair of old Russian skates with blades using the same system.

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Oh dear Herniated, we really are on a Profiler thread running alongside yours now.

Mine are superficially scratched, but not badly

Thanks, been wondering how to clean it. Do you get a really narrow brush, or can you take the stone out?

When I used tape it was a problem because the tape supplied was too wide. Using a much narrower tape allowed me to get deeper without bumping bolts.
And yes, I know they're discontinued, but don't plan to buy more. I want Phantoms, I miss my 7' rocker!

Out of interest, I had a go at my 20+ year old Phantoms again with the Profiler today. I used two layers of tape where the blade tapers, and one layer on the rest, and the profiler didn't snag at all. Can't understand why it snags on the much narrower freestyles.

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Katz

Saved by Synchro!
I was over it, now I'm into it again !

I've noticed that since I switched to Ultimas about 6 yrs ago (from Wilsons), they seem to hold an edge much longer (I skate a lot less than I did as a teen/college student, but going by amount of hours on the ice between sharpenings). That makes the blades last a lot longer.

Either that or now that my uncle no longer works for a skate shop, I have to pay for sharpenings and I've therefore learned to skate on duller blades than I did as a kid/teenager! But I've heard other people say the same thing about Ultimas.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Ok, I've gotten a lot of opinions from my skating community contacts and it seems that this is probably sharpener error. One more opinion to get and that is my coach's tomorrow. He has already told me the right outside edge is higher that the left inside on my right blade. But we havn't talked about how much 'life' he thinks is left. Once I speak to him one more time then I will speak to the sharpener and make my decision from there.

Huh. I have no idea how compatible the old Matrix and the new Matrix 2 runners are. Will ask someone who might know.

Ultima blades are stainless steel, which some people claim holds edges longer than the non-stainless high carbon steel used by MK and Wilson, perhaps because blades get wet.

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Mitch Grunes ModifyingBoots FallingGently HomePage

The pro filer is meant for a touch-up between real sharpenings, not as a substitute for one.

Herniated- you can go to tinypic.com and upload whatever image you wish without having to register for an account. Just head to the page, click on that "browse" button which will bring you into your own computer. Locate where your picture files are saved, then click on one. I would suggest you click on where it says "resize - default" and select the "17" screen option" as it will yield a larger picture. After this you can click the green "UPLOAD NOW!" button. It will give you a URL when it is done, which you can then post here for us to look at. Don't worry, pictures are purged on that site after I believe 28 days, so it won't stay on here for all to see indefinitely.

The pro filer web site certainly indicates it can be a replacement for sharpening:

" Provides perfect edges anywhere, anytime
Saves money on skate sharpening, shipping and blades
No more "rounded off" heal
No more "shaved" toe picks
No more "holes" between spin rocker and toe pick
More uniform skate sharpening that maintains the skating and spin rocker, critical to performance "

My experience is one year without having to send them away for sharpening, so it works for me. I got sick of paying others to ruin my blades, and decided if anyone was going to ruin them, it may as well be me.

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Katz

Saved by Synchro!
I was over it, now I'm into it again !

Actually, not ALL Ultima blades are stainless. The composition of the Matrix 2 is similar to Paramount. However, while some blades (Elite, Freestyle, Supreme) have the E-X-T technology, they are not stainless steel. Legacy definitely is not stainless steel.

I do, however, support the statement that my Legacy held edges longer than MK blades.

OP, I hope you get the blades issue solved!

Oh weird! I remember years ago their own advertisements used to state that it was a "good replacement" for "between sharpenings" and so forth. Wonder if I'm confusing it with something else...I doubt it, but could be. Regardless if it's worked for you for a year then might as well stick with it.

It would take way too much time to use it to change hollow radius or make major blade shape modifications (like rocker diameter), or if you have let your blade go unsharpened for too long and it is mostly flat.

But because the hollow diameter is built in, you can use it through the lifetime of the blade. I'm told - no experience - that some other brands of sharpener are adaptable to different hollows, but that very adaptability means you can get undesirable hollow variation over different parts of the blade.

With regards to the claim you will not get a rounded off heel, shaved toe picks, holes between "spin rocker" (which I guess is the same as the "sweet spot") and toe pick, and that it maintains the skating and spin rockers - there is nothing to physically prevent you from messing up all those things, with Pro-Filer, or with machine sharpening tools. It's all a matter of taking care, which you may or may not trust your available commercial sharpening people to do. (Many commercial sharpening machines are designed to maintain a constant rocker, and do eliminate the spin rocker unless the sharpener knows to keep it.)

I used to gradually flatten the rocker, because I would start moving the Pro-Filer slow at one end, speed up in the middle (taking off more metal) and slow at the end, which also eliminated the sweet spot. And it did not occur to me at first to turn the blade around and brush again in the opposite direction, and a slight assymetry in the tool made one edge higher than the other. To maintain rocker shape, I now photocopy or trace a new blade, and occaisionally check to make sure the rocker doen't change. And I emphasize the sweet spot - effectively decreasing the spin rocker radius at the point I spin - to make spinning, twizzling and turning easier.

BTW, for those who scrape, there is a width adjustment screw in the Pro-Filer, but you need a tool I don't have to adjust it. I think tape is only needed if the blade is too thin for the tool, not to prevent scratches - only you would ever be close enough to notice cosmetic scratches on the parts of the blade that don't touch ice.

One Pro-Filer downside is they don't sell a 5/16" hollow tool, for those who want it. If you sharpen their way, so the thin edge penetrates the ice and creates the sideways pressure as much as the hollow curve does, the hollow isn't all that critical, so I use 3/8".

The Pro-Filer is over-priced for what it is ($72 + $15 shipping in the U.S.! - though the O.P. is paying about that for every sharpening, if you include blade life), and the handle is too large to see the blade while you sharpen, and it gets in the way with the Matrix blade mount system. And working with a sharp blade isn't safe for small children. But I still like the results better than going to someone else.

Anyway, most skaters eventually find a sharpener they are happy with, so hand sharpening tools aren't needed for them. Maybe the O.P. needs to shop around a little, and to ask who other skaters are happy with.

After 2 or 3 years of sharpening every few weeks, the Pro-Filer stones got clogged. I thought they needed to be replaced, but the brass brush idea never occurred to me.

Jackson (Ultima) says the Matrix 2 system does not have detachable runners - they may just be lighter and costlier ($500) versions of standard Ultima blades, though the person on the phone wasn't sure, and their web site isn't real informative. So no more $110 replacement runners, unless someone knows an alternative source.

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Mitch Grunes ModifyingBoots FallingGently HomePage

Spoke with my coach today and he looked at my blades. He too feels there is way too much taken off considering how long I have them and how many times I've had them sharpened. Now to speak to the sharpener. Probably tomorrow. Uggh.

Yes they do:
Eewww! It's never a pleasant prospect to take someone to task. I hope it goes well.

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Katz

Saved by Synchro!
I was over it, now I'm into it again !

herniated, I don't know if you are near Manhattan, or if you are ready to look for another sharpener for next time.

I would highly recommend Dave at West Side Skate and Stick:
http://www.wsskate.com/

Dave is very dedicated and scientifically minded and takes off very little material. After a sharpening yesterday, my blades feel perfect-
I was able to do all the stops, turns, jumps, spins and figures with no adjustment time.

Best wishes, HelenC

Helen & Herniated - I just had my blades sharpened today by someone new where I work, and also had a wonderful result. It was better than any sharpening I've ever had. LMK if you want the details.

Re the Pro-filer - I just got this email reply today:

"That is a new problem with the figure skate blades coming in with wider than normal tolerances. If you can get a micrometer measurement of your figure blades at the toe, middle and heal of each blade, we will be happy to machine your Pro-filer to fit.

Sorry for the inconvenience. This is simply something happens from time to time with metal materials. We look forward to assisting you."

My only problem with this is that if blade width is going to vary like that, then why should I have spent so much money on a gizmo that has to be machined to fit each pair of blades? I have 2 pair of new blades in reserve, so I guess I'll measure them too, and see if I should go ahead.

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Thanks HelenC. I'm not near Manhattan but it's good to know. Damn I've been thinking of going to NJ to get them done.

Update. I just came back from my sharpener and I got the distinct feeling one of my contacts told him how I felt. I don't believe it was any one of you guys on the forum because none of you use him except patatty and she wouldn't do that. (((Hello patatty))) I think it was someone on my email list who uses him.

Anyway, I walked in and his mom asked me if there was anything wrong with the blades. (they were tipped off) My approach was that I wanted to know how much life I had left on my blades because I want to switch out to dance blades. blah, blah,blah. So he told me I have till next year, maybe till February 2010. Not quite two years old. He stated that my blades look a lot better ect since doing dance and that he would be very careful not to take off too much in the future (tipped off) so that they would last me a while. Then he went into the evils of dance blades with the shorter heels. Whatever.

Basically, I'm in these blades till they are done. I did address the problem still with the right blade. He said that I'm getting stronger and adjusting. What?!!EVER. Getting stronger does NOT mean slipping on an inside edge. duh.

Thanks all for your input and I will be trying someone else within the next couple of weeks.

That's just rotten that someone tipped him off. It made it impossible for you to get an honest response. Not really fair to either you or your sharpener. As far as the problem with the R blade .... Yeah, if you're strong and an elite skater, you can manage with almost anything, no matter how messed up it is .

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I'm certainly not an elite skater but I'm dealing with the Right blade now for 4mths. AND he tried to fix it once before. I think I know who tipped him off. I will find out eventually..this kind of stuff always slips out.

I could be wrong too about the whole 'tipped' off thing. But probably not.

It sounds like they were just waiting for you to come in.

Funny about the evils of dance blades - I would be the first to tell you that they are no big deal - the backs that is - what bothers me about them is the lack of picks - on the MKs that is... but the blade guys never think about that - they just think about how short the backs are and freak out!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Thanks for the warning about the lack of toe picks. Another poster on another thread commented on that. I haven't had small picks for years now but I'm willing to make the adjustment for more efficient ice dancing. lol.

REally might be worth looking into the Super Dance 99 or the Ultima Dance - they have better picks (IMHO than the MKs) - I have skated on the Super Dance 99 and they are great! Great flow and nice nice blade.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

And I'm going to love the Dance99s when I'm used to having a rocker again! My last blades had been skated flat.....

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Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Update..just got back from my new sharpener. He said the right blade was uneven. The right outside edge was higher than the inside..just like my coach said that's why I'm slipping. Not getting stronger as my last dude said. DDUUUUHHHH.

He changed the radius of hollow to 5/16. Fine. Said my turns will be better. And he also said I've got 6mths. Nice. He feels too much was taken off. Nice. Anyway, this guy was VERY pleasant and super nice. I got wicked lost finding his place and he came to find me! Thank god I was with a friend and we laughed our A$$es off over the whole thing. She said to me 'Can't you take up a sport like tennis so you don't have to travel all over the place?' It was hysterical. Then I had to get gas after this whole fiasco and the sharpening dude now believing we were two incompetants said, 'I'll drive you to a station and point you in the right direction home'. I rolled down my window to thank him and instinctually blew him a thank you kiss!! Now the guy probably thinks i'm hitting on him. And you know what I really don't care right now!! Now I'm in my husband's crap box car and can't get the gas cap open (the little door) so I had to punch it to open it. It is now eternally broken. And you know what...I don't care. lol

I'll let you all know Monday after I skate on them how they are. Thanks all for listening and sharing.