These rules in ISU communication 1611 are written for junior and senior competition.

We don't know yet how USFS will adjust SP and well-balance program requirements for juvenile through novice and adult gold and masters. They may well leave things as is for 2010-11 and save significant changes for 2011-12.

Ah! Ok, that's what I was wondering if this affects everything down to the lower and adult levels.

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That would surprise me if they did. Haven't they always implemented IJS changes right away in the past? The only area that would be foggy for the lower/adult levels would be the choreo spirals/choreo footwork - the rest is pretty straight forward - and they can address that in the well balanced requirements.

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That's funny. Where does the Biellman spiral stand with this? As a spectator, that is my favorite. Especially in a spin, they look like a fancy decorated wine glass against the ice.

Even if the kids stop doing Y spirals and catch foot spirals (which do not even need to be in an actual Biellmann position to count), they'll still be working on Y spins, I spins, catch foot camels, pancakes, cannonballs, haircutter spins and Biellmann spins. In fact, skaters will probably be forcing themselves into even more difficult positions just to have more spin features they can use (now that each difficult variation will only count once per program).

I have always wondered about those spread eagles in synchro, too! Forcing spread eagles from closed hips is bad news.

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And if you want to be on one of the top junior or senior teams in the country, you really have no choice. Spread eagles are usually required for tryouts.

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2010-2011 goals:
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The rule as written is for the Jr and Sr levels - the choreo step sequence/spiral sequence is for the spiral sequence in ladies (to improve on the complaint that all L4 spiral sequences look alike) as an all or nothing BV with possible GOEs and the same goes for the step sequence which is for the men for the second required step sequence in their program. I hope that the adult rules are changed to use the choreo step/spiral sequence to make it a more even playing field.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record -- me too!

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"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I don't mind since there are some committee members here who if we keep seconding each other might think there are more of us!!

I'm not sure how that would even the playing field (I, personally, don't think that it would). I am curious though about how you think it would. Would you mind elaborating?

When it's done very well, I agree.

Unfortunately there are SO few Biellman's (spins OR spirals) out there that are worth looking at. Ditto most of the catch-foot variations. Most of the ones I see aren't even close to attractive, and it's painfully obvious that no amount of stretching or flexibility work is ever going to make it attractive on that particular skater...but they continue to work on sticking their right toepick in their left ear anyway (thanks to whomever started that phrase) because it's difficult and it racks up points. What really hurts is seeing the skate school group lesson kids learning to grab their blades on a spiral before they can even remotely do a regular one.

If the rule changes cut down on the gratuitous and ugly blade grabbing, I'm all for them.

I had a student tell me that she taught herself a Haircutter spin. Not even recognizable and her basic spin entry is awful, not for lack of lessons and corrections, but because she's so focused on learning new tricks that she's screwing up over and over, developing some really bad habits.

I'm glad the Victory Spirals are being back-burnered. Too many skaters "warm them up" before they actually warm up, then complain that their hip hurts when you're trying to teach spins. Same thing with the outside butt spreadeagles. I'd rather see the skater focus on proper warmups, stretching, and hip position than doing those awful mooning spreadeagles.

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Make sure and check out Debi Thomas' (yes that Debi Thomas) Facebook page about this: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...d=310730951875

Rob

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There is a skater at my rink who has such a gorgeous layback, I almost always stop and watch when she does it. Then cringe when she switches position and grabs her blade, it ruins the whole thing.

I wish there were some changes to spins to get rid of positions that are downright awful. The one I hate the most is the one I refer to as the Butt Spin. Stephane Lambiel started it (bend over at the waist and grab your skates with your butt just sticking in the air). I always thought it was rather stupid, but when it was just the men doing it, it wasn't too bad. But now ladies are starting to do it and it is just plain unattractive.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Our physio has a few words to say about the extreme spiral positions (never heard of a Victory spiral!) and the haircutters, Bielmanns, etc, particularly on the pre-adolescent/early adolescent body, and particularly when they are not "developed" but instead are manhandled into existence. NO reputable ballet teacher or dance teacher would simply expect a student to walk in, haul a foot above their head without training the position and the flexibility, and would probably (hopefully) not allow them to practice a position without appropriate direction ... but I see coaches allowing/encouraging/ignoring the student who is pulling their body in various extreme positions! And also parents ... who encourage it ...

I wish the commentators in TV would emphasize the need for training, flexibility etc needed for some of the positions the elite skaters obtain, so that kids who would never expect to do, say, a triple axel without appropriate coaching wouldn't decide to "teach" themselves extreme spin etc positions.

My rant is done.

(P.S., the blood stains on the skates when they slice their hands open on the catch-foot ... also not pretty ... I know one skater's skates who are stained yellow from blood, and who regularly finishes the program with sliced open hands ... yes, there are protectors you can put on the blades, but so few use them! They practice in gloves, then take them off in competition and cut themselves to ribbons).

Wasn't Emmanuel Sandhu the King of the A-frame (Butt spin)? Fortunately, I guess ISU also didn't like it, they called it an upright spin which made it worth less points than it might have been! My kid REFUSES to do it, and my coach REFUSES to coach it ... it's hideous ...

I don't know, I remember Stephane Lambiel doing it a lot. I had a hard time watching Emanuel skate, especially when I got a large TV with HD...his pants were always tight to the point of vulgar right there in my living room.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I think the main point here is that there needs to be greater education about the value of warming up and stretching properly. One can gain increased flexibility without causing bodily harm. I’ve seen some really pretty haircutters and some beautiful spirals, when done properly. Just because some skaters are going and yanking their foot above their head without proper knowledge of what they’re really doing, doesn’t mean that the spiral features should be done away with. Perhaps there could be a rule about it being unsupported, which would eliminate skaters forcing their legs into positions that their body isn’t ready for. Same could go for spins.

I disagree. I think it is the responsibility of the governing organizations to ensure, as much as possible, the safe development of their youth skaters. Setting rules that encourage young skaters to do things that can cause lifetime inuries (beyond those inherent in the sport itself, such as jumps) defeats that purpose - especially when there is no compelling reason to keep those rules.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Perhaps that particular type of feature could be eliminated - I would be for that! Doing away with _all_ features though seems a bit rash.

For example, holding a spiral position (unsupported) for 6 seconds - good. Holding for 3 seconds, then change of edge, and then another 3 seconds - good. Spirals on different feet - good. Spirals where you rap your leg around your neck - not so good. I would just like to see _some_ type of features.

Well, it is a difficult variation of upright, unless the attempt is not even close.

Nathalie Krieg (see combo spin at 2:20) was the first skater I saw this position from, not necessarily the first ever to perform it. Lambiel probably would have witnessed the end of her competitive career for Switzerland while he was a little boy at the beginning of his.

For a little levity on the blade-grabbing issue, take a look at Debi Thomas' Wanda demonstrating lovely art of blade-grabbing at every turn!! Love it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtwVPgenweM

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And if you do have the flexibility in those 6 seconds (or 3+3) to do a beautiful, properly-executed Bielmann or some other variation of a spiral position, then by all means, do it. But it shouldn't be worth more in terms of a base value nor a GOE awarded by the judges than a regular old spiral with nice extension that can be just as beautifully executed. Somewhere along the way that just became less cool to do. And holding your leg up with nice height on deep edges is harder than grabbing your blade and yanking your leg up, which is why far less skaters did it until IJS. So I'm also not sure where the notion that it was somehow better (that influenced the emphasis on it in judging) came from.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

What you just described as "good" fulfills the requirements for the choreo spirals. It would even the playing field because both the choreo steps and choreo spirals are worth 2 points. Then you'd either get more or less based on GOE. That does not mean the skater can't grab their blade, but if they do, and it sucks, they'll theoretically get fewer points. If they do, and it's awesome, they'll get more ... all based on GOE. When it was levels, a level 4 spiral sequence was worth 3.4 and was much easier to get (for those who could do spirals) than even a level 2 step sequence, which is worth 2.3, regardless of how crappy the spiral positions were.

Because we can't clearly see it's coming from the same screennames? LOL!

My guess -- and this is only a guess -- is that adults will adopt whatever system novice adopts. Novice is the only other level that allows the skater to choose between steps and spirals. It's not up to just the Adult Skating Committee, btw. Other committees (Competitions, etc.) are involved as well.

So all of this discussion partially brings me back to my original question of why can you get different levels on a step sequence and not a spiral sequence? If it's only choreo. step and choreo spiral, no levels available to either, then that's fine. But if a skater can get levels on a step seq and not a spiral seq then I have an issue...and that would bring me to the rest of my reply which I'm not posting yet, because it's fairly lengthy and not necessary if you can't get levels on step and spiral sequences anymore.