No, they were working on figures for hours on end! During that time frame many coaches then did not let skaters even start working on Axels until they had passed their first figure tests. That way when they did start working on Axels they had excellent body control from all those FO/FI/BO/BI figure eights.

Just to clarify ... when I said to take it more slowly I meant learning wise (ie don't do the advanced stuff before you can do the basics properly) rather than speed on the ice! Speed on the ice is good but you have to have technique as well. I'd rather see a slow, graceful skater with nice edges than a frantic, flappy thing going at a hundred miles an hour

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The best whisper is a click

Not sure this goes for everyone, but when someone comes back and says they are a "child skater", then I assume they actually took lessons/passed tests/maybe competed, and at the very least did jumps and spins and stuff. You're the one who said "not bad for someone who's never taken a lesson", that's why people thought you had never had a skating lesson, because you said so.

It's great you learned to skate as a kid, but there's a difference (a huge one..) between learning to SKATE, and learning to figure skate. You did the former, and it's the latter that would make the difference as far as how quickly you think you can breeze through skating (the moves in the field tests, although I don't know what the adult ones are like, will kill you...you can't just do jumps and spins to get to compete, you have to pass moves in the field FIRST..and they're not fun, and they take forever to learn). I'm not trying to discourage you, but I think it's important for you to have people trying and bring you a little dose of objectivity. I don't know what you need to pass/compete at adult gold, I assume it's doable in 5 years, but...you're going to have to approach it differently in my opinion.

I also think there's confusion about my tone. I'm not asserting I can breeze through anything. The goal I have set was affirmed as doable by my coach. Now, I did not take figure skating lessons, this is true. However, I did take hockey lessons, as well as play. Once again, I know there are differences between hockey skating and figure skating. Due to internet constraints, I think you're reading too much into my posts. Rather I do not disagree with you, and I'm not asserting that I do. I think your claim about a different approach assumes too much for such limited exposure to me.

Kevin -- I don't want to highjack your post/thread, but I was thinking about that "axel without crossing your leg over"- thing, and went back and looked at a clip of a skater I used to know in the '60s -- Tim Wood -- he was World Champion in '68, '69 and '70 -- did his axel and even a double axel without noticably crossing his leg over -- anyway you can download this clip if you want to see it:

http://s15.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...B1VKAP9JV0RUWU

Now I'm wondering if skaters in the past could do this technique not just because of regular figure 8s, which are largish, but because of loops, which is a very small figure and required more hip control and strength.

Anyway, good luck to you -- the hockey players that I have known have GREAT edges and the Moves should be no problem.

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Hmmm??? Then where would you put me?

I was skating as a kid from age 10 to 12, have never took lessons (not even from a coach) but did pick up spirals, one foot spins and waltz jumps. (A wimpy one but technically a waltz jump.) Even managed a "shoot the duck" one day. (And ALL on RENTAL skates too!!!) I came back to the sport at age 31 and then took lessons from a coach. Am I considered a "returning child skater" or an "adult onset skater?"

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Kevin, there's no reason you can't pass your Adult Gold tests in 5 years if you are dedicated. I wouldn't say that to everyone, but you obviously have a comfort level on the ice and I think that makes a big difference. I skated recreationally when I was about 12 or 13 and I only got as far as crossovers and a little waltz jump, which a friend taught me. Mostly, I just tried to skate as fast as I could to keep up with my friends who were taking lessons and had learned correct stroking technique. But I think that experience made a big difference in my comfort level on the ice as an adult.
I took my first skating lesson--a group class--at age 27, and I continued to take a class once a week for 5 years, skating just one or two times per week on public sessions. Although I had trouble on my spins, I was landing all of my single jumps through the lutz within the first year or two. Then, after 5 years of group lessons and fooling around, I got too busy with work and completely quit skating for the next 5 years. But when I came back 5 years later, I finally got serious, taking private lessons and starting the testing process from ground zero. I passed both my Gold moves-in-the-field and Freestyle tests less than 4 years later (that was 3 weeks ago, at age 40). All of this is just to say that if I had been as serious when I first started as I have been since returning to the ice, I think Gold in 5 years would have been achievable.

Hey there, Jazzpants!
You and I seem to have a very similar background! I don't know about everyone else, but in my circles, the consensus is that if you never took any lessons until you were an adult, you are an adult onset skater. I mean, we put Bactine and Band-Aids on our cuts and scrapes when we were kids, too, but I wouldn't call that practicing medicine.

What are your intermediate goals? All singles by year end? Passing your first test etc? I think it's very important to set small goals that you can achieve in a short amount of time. For example, my long term goal at the moment is to pass Primary (which in Australia is the nationals qualifying test). I think this will take about 5 years. But to get there, I have to set goals about actually getting to the rink twice a week, making inquiries about getting coaching again, getting my single jumps back in order, and passing Elementary 2 which is the test that comes before Primary.

So I'd be interested to hear what you're planning on achieving in the short term, and what your coach wants you to do short term.

I had so many friends when I was a teen skater have the goal of getting to seniors in 5 years (after finishing basic skills - Aussie Skate). Many of them got through to Novice, one to Junior, but none the whole way. They zoomed along in the first few years, but then things do slow down and it is a lot harder to get triples than doubles. So do remember to set other goals so that if you don't get to Gold in 5, you're not discouraged.

Excellent question, and I'll have that answer for you around the 17th. My coach and I will be sitting down and discussing those intermediate goals in detail. The reason I chose him over others was that he is well known as a person who can make timetables for his skaters and then know how to keep them sticking to it! When I started poking around, even other coaches said "You know, not that we don't want your business, but you really need to talk to Tim. You have a very specific goal, and that sounds like a match for Tim." After talking to him and hearing just his preliminary enthusiasm (kind of felt like a science project at times), I knew that between my determination and his, we would make serious progress together.

I'm only speaking for myself and what I understand terms to be. I've always assumed that child skaters meant...they were serious skaters as kids. Maybe I'm just wrong, but for the sake of that whole adult vs returning kid skater you guys talk about regarding Nationals and the advantage returning skaters have on new skaters and such...I imagined that the advantageous ones were "child skaters" ie: people who learned most of the freestyle stuff as a kid. I haven't ever been off the ice for a long period of time, but I know how rusty I get after vacations...so I'm wondering how much skating for 2 years and getting a scratch spin/waltz jump helped you when you returned to skating and learned skating when you were an adult. All the other moves, you had to learn for the first time, so aside for two moves you already knew, everything is new. I think it'd be unfair to treat you as a "child skater" then, and assume everything is easier for you because you knew how to skate as a child. I'd think that unless you had at least doubles as a child and skated for a long time, that returning as an adult, skating a little when you were younger really wouldn't help that much.

Am I totally wrong on this? I really don't know, I'm just going by what I understood from some of the convos you guys have had.

I think also in our various discussions we haven't thought about someone like Kevin who may have played hockey as a kid/young adult, then life interfered, then came back to skating and decided to try figure skating rather than (or in addition to) playing hockey.

I would think that some of the same things about comfort level (with regards to rate of movement on the ice) would hold true for a "hockey convert" as a "returning to ice but figure skated as a kid" adult skater.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Do you mean it takes a year from when you start skating, or a year from when you start working on the axel?

If the former (as I originally read it), then I feel like quite the slacker. If the latter, whew, that seems an awful long time for one jump. Do the rest of the doubles usually come quicker after you get the axel?


And Kevin, regarding the ice guards, you'll probably find that they wouldn't mind the same jump if it were exercised with more control. I don't know because I haven't seen your skating, but I used to be told by ice guards at certain rinks that I couldn't do jumps on public sessions when simply trying salchows and toe loops, however in recent months have skated at the same rinks doing those jumps as well as flips and loops on public sessions without a problem. I won't say my skating is super now - it's not by any means - but it's more obvious that I have more control to the casual observer.

And honestly, to this day, it's still control I struggle most with. For me, there's pretty much two ways I can try to move forward in skating - accumulating new skills, or obtaining better control over existing ones. Generally I find I can get away with doing the former for a while, but then I get stuck on something. In frustration, I slow down and start working on existing things and trying to do them more precisely, and though this, that skill I was hung up on becomes easier. So, do both! Keep working on the hard things that you can't do with outstanding control, without trying you'll never succeed! But never forget to keep working on the things that you know already, there's always room for improvement, and it will just help all your new stuff too. Gotta keep up a healthy balance.

I still work on the waltz jump most days that I skate. There's always some detail that can be better (and a coach is really helpful for identifying those).

As to whether you're doing an axel, you could think of it as being a double waltz. You take off from the same left forward outside edge, and land on the same right backward outside edge - proper technique aside the only difference is that there's an extra full rotation in there. So in a waltz jump you rotate 0.5 revolutions, in an axel it's 1.5 revolutions. Because it is >1 revolution, the single axel is often considered a double jump. Indeed many learn a double toe loop or double salchow first.

Good luck!

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

It depends on the skater. I've seen people get axels relatively quickly (a couple months) and I've seen people struggle for months.

And with the double axel, even more so. I'd say it's not unrealistic to take a long time to get the 2Axel clean and consistent, even if a skater has a couple triples under their belt. I've seen kids working on 2Axel for 1-2 years. Going out on the ice every day (5-6 days a week) and working on it.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

If we're talking about adults, the latter. And quite frankly, that's pretty fast. I've seen many adults take years to get an axel. I know of a couple who've been working on it for years and still don't have one! That jump is a b**ch.

Maybe it's a matter of personal preference, but I think setting timetables can be a detrimental thing. People learn different elements at different paces. So what if you get your axel in 2 months or 2 years? If you get it, thats what counts right? If you set a timetable and say, "I'm going to learn to do X element in X amount of time" and then that time comes and goes I can't see anything other than disappointment and frustration. Maybe it's just me, and I take my skating seriously, but I think having strict timetables can hurt more than help. I see nothing wrong with goal setting - like say, "I'm going to pass my silver moves" but when you say "by such and such date" it puts way too much pressure on you.

It all depends on what works to motivate each type of person. I need to have specific target dates in mind for everything I do or else it's hard for me to stay focused on the goal. And there's nothing to say you can't keep adjusting your target dates as you go.

The axel--and anything above the axel--is a whole different animal from any of the single jumps. As I mentioned earlier, I had all of my single jumps through the lutz within two years of starting group lessons. However, the axel took me a year to land on the floor and another year to land on the ice! Then it took another year before I was able to land it in my program in competition, so that's 3 years to get a "usable" axel. Granted, I wasn't working on it that often at first, but still, I think two years is pretty common to land your first axel unless you are very, very focused on it.

The #1 focus if you want to land your axel is to get a solid backspin! I can't tell you how many times I was told that, and how many times I dismissed it, because I didn't like spins and I hated the backspin in particular. But it was only after I finally got a decent backspin that I had my big breakthrough on the axel. Rather than thinking of the axel as a double waltz jump, or even a waltz-loop (which is actually most accurate), I have found it really works to think of it as a straight-up waltz jump into a backspin. That's what helps me land it, anyway.

And yes, the axel really is the gateway to double jumps. I landed my first double salchow just 3 months after landing my first axel, and I hadn't even worked on it that much. It's all about getting used to rotating backwards over your landing hip.

Lots of kids stop skating after trying for 2 or more years for that jump.Its a defining point for alot of people, both kids and adults.Some people get a double sal before the axel.
And huge difference with landing it and landing it clean and good enough for a program.Take time and practice.
My daughter landed on yesterday but it was cheated.She know it will be at least a year for it to be great.
backspin waltz is what she does alot alot, it does help !!

Absolutely. It took me a long time to get the axel and I don't think I ever had it very consistently. My double loop and salchow were more consistent. Double sal was one of those jumps I just decided I wanted to do one day - and did 20 of them in a row. You could never do that with an axel.

As unsure as I felt my axel was though, I was the first in my competitive group at the time to have it in my program, and there was usually two of them, one after lutz and the other an axel-loop combo. It always concerned me a little because it always took me a long time to warm up the axel, time you don't really get in the 6 minute warmup.

I hardly do them these days, waiting until I have coaching again as I can feel errors creeping in.

I really like the sound of this approach! Turns skating into project management in a way

Switching gears, I am in need of a new pair of skates. Or at least new to me pair of skates. There's so much out there, I don't know where to start. Since I'm not growing, I need skates that are going to last a decent amount of time. And certainly skates that are going to hold up in competition.

I've had SP Teri recommended over Reidell, and after picking up the boots in my hand and feeling them, I tend to see why. The seem more solidly constructed. Does anyone have any tips? I'd be more than willing to go the used route as long as the boots will hold up for the next few months (until I'm promoted to a management position at work), and the blades have sharpening life in them.

Oh yeah, and I hate black. I hope my Y chromosone doesn't preclude me from wearing white in competition or something (I happen to have white skates now).

Well, that depends if you picked up two boots of equal strength. Boots of equal quality will feel very similar if you have average feet - I found it very difficult to choose between Teris (super teri deluxe, now discontinued) and Jacksons (elite), I tried one on each foot for about an hour and it was a marginal difference between them.

I would recommend going to a big shop with a big range and trying everything, especially if you've never had high quality boots before. Expect to be in the shop for 2-3 hours. If you wear orthotics, bring them. Only wear on your feet what you will wear on the ice. I wore socks for my fitting because I was a sock fan back in the day, but the Teris fit so well that I just wear tights now.

Wear whatever colour you want - most young male skaters at the rink I frequent wear white because that's all they can get. You can always 'change colour' by wearing boot covers.

There is no "best" brand. Depending on the shape of your foot, SP Teris might fit you perfectly and Harlicks might squeeze you in the toes. Or SP Teris might just kill you and Harlicks might fit you perfectly. As long as you are getting a reputable brand (Harlick, SP Teri, Graf, Klingbeil, Reidell, Jackson, etc.), the best brand for you will largely depend on the shape of your foot.
Meanwhile, the level of boot you get within that brand's product line will generally be a function of what stiffness you need, and that will depend on your body weight, how aggressively you skate, and what level jumps you are doing. Boots that are more expensive are generally more expensive because they cost more to make, due to the level of stiffness. They aren't more expensive because they are "better." I have heard horror stories of people ending up with boots that are so stiff they feel like cement blocks and never break in.

One option is to start off with boots that are less expensive, but sufficient for learning all of your single jumps. Jacksons are a good value for the money at that level (provided they fit you, of course). Then in a year or two you could upgrade to something stiffer for your axel and doubles, say something like Harlicks or SP Teris. That will also give you some time to learn more about the different types of boots so that you will be more informed when it's time to put down a serious chunk of money for them.

I'm also tempted to suggest erring on the side of too little support versus too much support. I know that boots can be "built up," i.e., made stiffer, but I'm not sure they can be made LESS stiff if you get out on the ice and decide you don't like skating in cement blocks.

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~No thinking, breathing, or hesitation!~

definitely don't buy a boot that is too strong.

Each brand of skating boot also has its own characteristics in terms of last design. One brand of boot may fit your foot better that another brand.

So find a pro shop and technician who will work with you to try on several brands. Be prepared to spend a good couple of hours if you are going to try on a couple pairs as you will want 15-20 minutes sitting in the boots to see how they really feel.

You said you skated at Dr. Pepper Stars, as I recall. Seems to me they have enough high level competitors skating there that their pro shop should be able to help you, or else the coaches should be able to recommend a pro shop and skate technician to help you.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...