Deep Thoughts - Skating Moves vs. Freestyle - Page 2

jp1andOnly · #26 12-13-2009, 09:41 AM

you say roller there are no tests...is it an olympic sport?

I love jumping..didnt as a kid and I spend countless hours zamboniing the ice as I learn harder jumps. In Canada there is no "MITF" test that you must pass before you freeskate. In order to pass a level freeskate, there are elements you must do (a few stroking exercies, spins, jumps, field moves like a spiral) before or after you do the program portion of your test. I will say that even if you pass the test with the requirements chances are you get your butt kicked in competition because people have better skills and often better jumps then just the test. These days I am working on dance and trying to spend a few moments a session doing my footwork.

Honestly, I'm not very good with the inbetween stuff, but even as I practice basic swing rolls, 3 turns ,etc I know my skating improves becaue I'm more steady then I was before (and I actually do have a legit reason why I seem unsteady other then lack of practice) and I'm getting more down in my knees which is improving my jump quality.

Take 15 min each sessions and work on some simple inbetween stuff and you will see your jumps improve....especially the flow before and after.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

Never said anyone who works hard at MITF or dance or.....anything....was "lazy." I was just using "reverse logic" since I have often been accused of "laziness" because I choose to spend several hours straight falling (hard) on a jumps rather than dedicate that time to something like MITF. If that makes me lazy, then so be it.

As for roller. We would not exclude you because on roller there are no tests. (At least when I competed. Heard they may be slowly phasing it in now, but it is not really enforced.) Actually, I'd have no problem with you comming into roller and competing against me. (Not just because I can skate on roller, but because that it my mindset. Let everyone in. I have no problem with that. The more the merrier.)

Also, if a skater could not land doubles on roller, they eventually "gravitated" to dance. (There is a solo freedance event that allows single jumps and 2 small spins. It is very popular.) Back when I skated there wasn't even A and B catagories. Generally, it went by age. By the time the skaters hit Freshman (usually early teens), they either had doubles, went to dance, got beaten (constantly), or quit. Now there is a "beginner" catagory. (Think it is A). Personally, don't even see why this exists since there is solo dance. But there you have it. If you want to buy a pair of artistic inlines (and are over age 13), then you will skate World Class which means "senior." That's it. No beginner. You would skate against me. (If I could find a rink and practice that is.) All of us at WC have doubles. The winner has a heel camel. Again, there is no beginner event. Beginner skaters are allowed to enter (if they want to), but they will be badly beaten.
However ......THEY ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER IF THEY WANT TO. (That's the point!)

Sorry, I like my italics, my bolds, and my faces. Love the faces (emotes).

Yes, you can have great jumps without good MITF.....Bonaly.

I'm very sorry, but it is unfair that the only elements that are restricted are the jumps. (It may "work" for most adults who find jumping.....difficult...but it is unfair since you don't limit the spins and MITF.) Can't you see that, by doing so you are singling out one aspect of the sport and discriminating against it. (Picking on the jumpers, so to speak.) Yes, skating is about more than jumping.....but jumps ARE an important part of skating (like it or not) and should not be unfairly limited while other aspects are not.

P.S. Like I said, I gave up all thoughts of competing on ice. Will continue to be general pain by posting on youtube, attending adult camps etc. just to point out that there is something very wrong with the system. (Which I have a right to do. It is America, after all.)

Debbie S · #27 12-13-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

What you may not realize is that if a skater went out & did ONLY footwork, with no jumps, they would not win. You seem to think the judging is completely slanted towards MIF, and it isn't. The key term here is "Well Balanced Program."

Exactly. I'm a test-level Bronze skater with no flip, lutz, or camel. When I competed, I finished last - with much lesser jump and spin content, I knew going in that I'd place behind the other ladies unless one of them fell or made some other big mistake. I stopped competing b/c I got tired of finishing last. It wasn't really the placement (b/c you could do the same jumps as everybody else and still finish last) but the fact the I was so non-competitive. I wanted to at least have competitive content if I was going to compete. My choice.

My point is that in FS comp, it is the jumps and spins that matter the most - basic skating can distinguish skaters doing the same jumps and spins (particularly in Bronze where there are no multi-rev jumps or flying spins, so most performances are clean) and the skaters that place high are the ones with strong basics in addition to the jumps and spins, but in most cases, strong basics and footwork aren't going to make up for lack of harder FS elements. Which makes sense, b/c it's FS.

So, no, MIF is not the be-all and end-all, but you do need to pass the tests the compete at particular levels. Which is how it should be, for reasons that others have mentioned.

Pandora · #28 12-13-2009, 09:57 AM

No, roller is not an Olympic sport. They have worlds and several international competitions, but not Olympics. It is much bigger in South America and Asia and Eurpoe (Italy), than it is here (US).

Can understand what you mean by being beaten by skaters with higher level MITF. That's why I don't understand why they don't limit this like they do the freestyle elements. Yes, I understand that the high level moves skater will have better basic stroking but why not limit their abiltiy to do difficult turns/spirals etc. the way they limit the freestyle moves (especally the jumps.) Seems fair. Why allow a 15 second spread eagle when you won't allow a 2flip? (And no. Not everyone can do a spread eagle. Need open hips. It is just as impossible for some of us as a 2flip is for other skaters.)

So, lets put this into a competition prespective. She can use this move and be rewarded for it. A good jumper could counter with the points from a 2lutz (which is their speciality) but wait....they can't because their speciality is not allowed since it is "unfair" to the other competitors. But her speciality (the spread eagle) isn't considered unfair and is allowed....Same for her level 3/4 footwork or spiral sequence.

You really don't see a problem here?

Pandora · #29 12-13-2009, 10:02 AM

Debbie,
On roller thay have Solo Freedance. It is very cool. Only 3 single jumps and 2small spins (3revs or less) allowed. It is more of a footwork event. The routine doesn't even have to follow a pattern around the rink. I think the footwork event in ISI is like this. Do they have anything like this in USFS?

techskater · #30 12-13-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

Yes, you can have great jumps without good MITF.....Bonaly.

And what World/Olympic Gold medal did Bonaly ever win? Heck, what Olympic MEDAL did she win? She LOST her one chance at a World Gold to someone with less jumping prowess (Yuka) because her basic skating was awful in comparison. Her posture was awful, she had NO concept of edge comparatively. Of a 4:10 program, a lady spends about 45 seconds in the air. If her basic skating and transitions in between that 45 seconds in the air is slouchy, on flats, and crappy (that would be 205 seconds) and her spins suck, why would ANYONE want to watch that? Part of the allure of figure skating (on ice) is the BEAUTY of the sport and the softness, grace, and ease of edge of the top ladies.

Same goes for Adults - so someone at Silver can land a great Axel but they have step overs, travelly spins, and no edging and transitions between elements - how is he/she going to place?

FWIW, I am a Gold level skater. Many people on this board know me personally and can vouch for the following: I find it easier to do nice spins and to get my butt in the air and rotate Axels and double jumps than I do skating beautiful, passing standard MIF and gorgeous, awesome transitions in my programs. I struggled to pass my Intermediate MIF. I am struggling with a couple of the Novice MIF which have precluded me from passing this test yet BUT I know that if I continue to work on them incrementally every day I skate, even 5-10 minutes to warm up before I move on to elements and program work, they're going to come and I WILL pass this test.

I competed less than a month ago and several people gave feedback to my coach and myself that the program looks much stronger in between my elements than they have historically and that it is nice to see and the program transitions and skating skills have really progressed.

Kristin · #31 12-13-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubletoe

If you want to have more jumping years ahead of you, don't repeat my mistake of jumping jumping jumping just because you think you need to jump while you can. After throwing my back out practicing jumps too much (something I could always get away with until I hit 40), I now force myself to spend 25% of my practice time doing MIF. My physical therapist told me I had to start using the muscles on both sides of my body and start doing things in both directions, and MIF was exactly that. I have not had any problems since I added MIF back into my regimen and started limiting my jump repetitions, and I would strongly recommend this to all adult skaters (especially women aged 40 and over, since changing hormone levels make us more susceptible to back problems, among other things).

WORD. This is the best advice for adults I have ever seen.

Kristin · #32 12-13-2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by techskater

Many people on this board know me personally and can vouch for the following: I find it easier to do nice spins and to get my butt in the air and rotate Axels and double jumps than I do skating beautiful, passing standard MIF and gorgeous, awesome transitions in my programs. I struggled to pass my Intermediate MIF. I am struggling with a couple of the Novice MIF which have precluded me from passing this test yet BUT I know that if I continue to work on them incrementally every day I skate, even 5-10 minutes to warm up before I move on to elements and program work, they're going to come and I WILL pass this test.

I competed less than a month ago and several people gave feedback to my coach and myself that the program looks much stronger in between my elements than they have historically and that it is nice to see and the program transitions and skating skills have really progressed.

I can vouch for Techskater. I have known her for 9 yrs now and she hates MITF!!! But she does them. She also has not had a major injury in a long time.

Pandora · #33 12-13-2009, 10:13 AM

Actually, Bonaly had some pretty impressive spins including a Beilmann. Also camel-butterfly-sit etc.

What does it matter that she didn't win gold? She won French Nationals tons of times and got to the Olympics at least twice. Now she is a show skater. It's not always about the gold. She was the only woman at the time to do the backflip and is still one of the few people who can land it on one leg (and do it into a 3sal.) I'd take that over an Olympic gold anyday.

There are ways to work a program to cover certain defects. Don't always need MITF to do that for you. Can't do this on a test (of course). But in a program, yes, it can be done. Obviously can not jump through an entire routine. Would be nice, though....

Serious Question: If some of you hate MITF so much and this (skating) is your hobby, why do you spend time doing something you hate? (Because it is worth it to compete?) I mean, I hate them so much that I am giving up competing so I don't have to spend time on them. This is my hobby. I have enough to do going to a job I hate and other things in my life that I force myself to do. My hobby needs to be fun or .....what's the point?

Kristin · #34 12-13-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

That's why I don't understand why they don't limit this like they do the freestyle elements. Yes, I understand that the high level moves skater will have better basic stroking but why not limit their abiltiy to do difficult turns/spirals etc. the way they limit the freestyle moves (especally the jumps.) Seems fair. Why allow a 15 second spread eagle when you won't allow a 2flip? (And no. Not everyone can do a spread eagle. Need open hips. It is just as impossible for some of us as a 2flip is for other skaters.)

So, lets put this into a competition prespective. She can use this move and be rewarded for it. A good jumper could counter with the points from a 2lutz (which is their speciality) but wait....they can't because their speciality is not allowed since it is "unfair" to the other competitors. But her speciality (the spread eagle) isn't considered unfair and is allowed....Same for her level 3/4 footwork or spiral sequence.

You really don't see a problem here?

Spread eagles & Bauers aren't on MITF tests and can be done at any level.

MITF is required for EVERY skating discipline, including synchro. It is rare, but once in a while you find a competition event for MITF and that's where the levels in MITF matter.

Also, level 3/4 footwork/spirals don't matter if the person skates it like crap. In the lower levels (pre-pre/prelim/prejuv) it is still the "6.0" judging system so level 3/4 doesn't matter anyway since they aren't judging based on points.

Kristin · #35 12-13-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

Serious Question: If some of you hate MITF so much and this (skating) is your hobby, why do you spend time doing something you hate? (Because it is worth it to compete?) I mean, I hate them so much that I am giving up competing so I don't have to spend time on them. This is my hobby. I have enough to do going to a job I hate and other things in my life that I force myself to do. My hobby needs to be fun or .....what's the point?

There are a lot of things I do in life that I hate. I hate the fact that I can't eat whatever I want all the time & have to eat healthy or else I will get my asthma back. I hate that I have to go to a job everyday. I hate that I have to clean my turtle's tank. But fundamentally I do these things so that I can have a good life overall (and my turtle thanks me & is a happy pet).

So I continue to do things in my life because they really are good for me and when I reap the rewards, it makes it worthwhile. This is self-discipline and it builds character.

Kristin · #36 12-13-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

Debbie,
On roller thay have Solo Freedance. It is very cool. Only 3 single jumps and 2small spins (3revs or less) allowed. It is more of a footwork event. The routine doesn't even have to follow a pattern around the rink. I think the footwork event in ISI is like this. Do they have anything like this in USFS?

They have freedance in USFSA but no jumps are allowed. It is part of the ice dance discipline.

There is always interpretive events which allow you to do single jumps. But the choreography (jumps included) must fit the theme you are trying to portray. I have seen some people use jumps to help interpret their theme & win. I have also seen one guy go out and skate the entire program on one foot, with no jumps, and win (he was doing a "figures" interp to the music from "Mission Impossible").

Mel On Ice · #37 12-13-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

Serious Question: If some of you hate MITF so much and this (skating) is your hobby, why do you spend time doing something you hate? (Because it is worth it to compete?) I mean, I hate them so much that I am giving up competing so I don't have to spend time on them. This is my hobby. I have enough to do going to a job I hate and other things in my life that I force myself to do. My hobby needs to be fun or .....what's the point?

A very good question! Because MIF are a means to an end. I want to be a better freestyle skater and way back when, a better synchro skater. Practicing routines over and over is worthless without a strong base built on that practice in learning decent basic skating, and that is what MIF helps you do.

I only started climbing in the standings when I started working on my field moves. I don't think it is a coincindence that I won my freestyle event at Buckeye the same weekend that I passed my silver MIF.

phoenix · #38 12-13-2009, 10:32 AM

No adult skater is going to get level 4 footwork; practically no world-class elite skater can do it!

Can any adult get level 3? Has anyone ever gotten it? I doubt it.

Spirals I think may be possible.

Pandora · #39 12-13-2009, 10:32 AM

But this is a hobby. That means, theoretically, that it is for "fun." I do force myself to do the "necessary evils" (work, pay bills etc.), but force myself to do a hobby....um...no thanks.....

Mel On Ice · #40 12-13-2009, 10:34 AM

then why waste your time railing against the system?

Pandora · #41 12-13-2009, 10:34 AM

He skated the whole thing on one foot???!! OMG!!!

Kristin · #42 12-13-2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

But this is a hobby. That means, theoretically, that it is for "fun." I do force myself to do the "necessary evils" (work, pay bills etc.), but force myself to do a hobby....um...no thanks.....

Then why are you so worried about FS vs. FM's etc. Do you ever plan on competing? I thought you mentioned a while back that you get really bad stage fright. If you never plan on competing/performing, then this whole MITF/FS discussion is a moot point.

Kristin · #43 12-13-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

He skated the whole thing on one foot???!! OMG!!!

Yes, and he won. It was a very well-crafted program.

phoenix · #44 12-13-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

But this is a hobby. That means, theoretically, that it is for "fun." I do force myself to do the "necessary evils" (work, pay bills etc.), but force myself to do a hobby....um...no thanks.....

Yes, you're right--if you're strictly out there to have fun, then by all means, you should only do what you want to and don't bother with what you don't enjoy. But by doing that, you limit yourself, as you already know. It is what it is.

I want to be a better overall skater. I do dance, not really FS, but I also do moves--and I'm not required to! But I do them because they really do fix weaknesses & imbalances and I see the value of them. I'm a competitive person, and for me, even though skating is a hobby, it's also something I'm trying to excel at, and it's my nature to want to work hard to achieve that.

There have been certain dances that I hated, and really struggled with, but I did them because that was the price I had to pay in order to be able to move up to a higher level.

techskater · #45 12-13-2009, 10:38 AM

That gold medal mattered to Bonaly - go look at her silver medal refusal on youtube! She often complained to the media that she was unfairly held back and that she should have won an Olympic medal. Look at Midori Ito - she put out the hardest technical programs at the 1988 Olympics and finished off the podium due to her poor figures!

You cannot construct a skating program to mask poor or out of balance basic skating technique - too much basic skating is required based on the amount of time on the ice during a program versus in the air. A good program is constructed to play to a skater's strengths. For example, I am open hipped and my programs always contain a bauer and a spread eagle as transition elements. These do NOT gain any points under IJS or the 6.0 system, but they look good when done well and help develop the story of the program - which adds to the TR, CH, and IN marks under IJS. I know doubletoe is another skater who often has these as transition elements in the program because they work well for her and look nice in her programs.

I noticed and interesting phenomenon with scores under IJS at Adult Nationals. At the Gold level, many skaters who got credit for Axels and/or double jumps got slightly higher PCS marks than those that got under rotation calls on the Axel or got no credit for any jump above Lutz. This is like the 3/3 phenomenon at the World level (if a lady skater does a ratified 3/3, she gets higher PCS) or the quad phenomenon (a man landing a quad gets higher PCS).

Spread eagles and bauers are no where to be found in the test structure as only people with certain body construction can do them and USFS understood that when the MIF structure was created.

What MIF limits are we talking about? Are you talking about measuring depth of edge? How would you do that? What's your objective measure or limitations? Spirals are all over the MIF test structure, so you can't really limit those. I mean, should I complain that because I can't do a 180 degree split in my spiral that no one else at my level should be allowed to either? No, I work within my limitations and do spirals slightly above hip level and work on my flexibility to try and get it just a little better.

PS - no adult skater, even one with Gold (8th) figures and MIF (Senior) has gotten a L3 or 4 step sequence (versus spiral sequence).

Pandora · #46 12-13-2009, 10:40 AM

Because the sport is fun (without the MITF, of course).

When I started out, I wanted to be part of it. Still irks me that I can't be. But we are at an impasse. So I am irked. Will continue to be irked.

No, not competing. Kind of wanted to again just to prove to myself I could.....but that is a separate issue. Only making observation. (Kind of think the whole set up over here on ice is kind of.......messed up....) So just observing. Entitled to opinion.

Kristin · #47 12-13-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

Yes, you're right--if you're strictly out there to have fun, then by all means, you should only do what you want to and don't bother with what you don't enjoy. But by doing that, you limit yourself, as you already know. It is what it is.

I want to be a better overall skater. I do dance, not really FS, but I also do moves--and I'm not required to! But I do them because they really do fix weaknesses & imbalances and I see the value of them. I'm a competitive person, and for me, even though skating is a hobby, it's also something I'm trying to excel at, and it's my nature to want to work hard to achieve that.

There have been certain dances that I hated, and really struggled with, but I did them because that was the price I had to pay in order to be able to move up to a higher level.

Just like school.

I hated taking all these classes that weren't relevant to my degree (like philosophy, history, etc.) but took them anyway because I wanted to get my Engineering degree. What a surprise it was in my Senior year to find a history class that I actually LOVED, and still talk about today, 13 yrs after I graduated college!

Coincidentally, working on & passing tests in MITF, FS, and Dance gave me a lot of confidence that has carried over into my daily life as well. Heck, if I could have taken a few figures tests, I would have added that to my many disciplines as well! I take a lot of pride in the skating tests I have passed because when I started there were so many people who looked at my like I was just some other stupid adult out there trying to skate. They changed their opinion of m when I started passing tests (like the Pre-Juv moves) on the first try, while their kids had to retry them. I kept telling myself that despite opposition, I was going to do it to prove that it could be done. It was a challenge, and I love a good challenge.

The challenge in this sport is what makes it fun. If it was easy, I wouldn't do it.

jp1andOnly · #48 12-13-2009, 10:44 AM

umm..actually in Canada they have

Quote:

Originally Posted by techskater

That gold medal mattered to Bonaly - go look at her silver medal refusal on youtube! She often complained to the media that she was unfairly held back and that she should have won an Olympic medal. Look at Midori Ito - she put out the hardest technical programs at the 1988 Olympics and finished off the podium due to her poor figures!

You cannot construct a skating program to mask poor or out of balance basic skating technique - too much basic skating is required based on the amount of time on the ice during a program versus in the air. A good program is constructed to play to a skater's strengths. For example, I am open hipped and my programs always contain a bauer and a spread eagle as transition elements. These do NOT gain any points under IJS or the 6.0 system, but they look good when done well and help develop the story of the program - which adds to the TR, CH, and IN marks under IJS. I know doubletoe is another skater who often has these as transition elements in the program because they work well for her and look nice in her programs.

I noticed and interesting phenomenon with scores under IJS at Adult Nationals. At the Gold level, many skaters who got credit for Axels and/or double jumps got slightly higher PCS marks than those that got under rotation calls on the Axel or got no credit for any jump above Lutz. This is like the 3/3 phenomenon at the World level (if a lady skater does a ratified 3/3, she gets higher PCS) or the quad phenomenon (a man landing a quad gets higher PCS).

Spread eagles and bauers are no where to be found in the test structure as only people with certain body construction can do them and USFS understood that when the MIF structure was created.

What MIF limits are we talking about? Are you talking about measuring depth of edge? How would you do that? What's your objective measure or limitations? Spirals are all over the MIF test structure, so you can't really limit those. I mean, should I complain that because I can't do a 180 degree split in my spiral that no one else at my level should be allowed to either? No, I work within my limitations and do spirals slightly above hip level and work on my flexibility to try and get it just a little better.

PS - no adult skater, even one with Gold (8th) figures and MIF (Senior) has gotten a L3 or 4 step sequence (versus spiral sequence).

Pandora · #49 12-13-2009, 10:45 AM

Guess that the only fair way to limit MITF to level would be to prohibit all elements above that test level. (eg. no counters/rockers until they show up on the tests. Brackets are on gold, right? So no brackets until gold or higher.) Not sure what to do with spirals except maybe only arabesque spirals allowed and no change of edge until senior. Just trying to make it "fair" like they do with the jumps.

Sorry, guess that may be the difference right there. I want my hobby to be fun. That is why it is a hobby. If I have to force myself to do it, then it is work. Whole different catagory. Have enough of that. Need hobby, not more work.

Jumps/spins are not work for me...but MITF is. Honestly, if it came down to skating MITF/Dance or not skating at all, I would definitely quit. It just doesn't appeal to me.

Stormy · #50 12-13-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora

Because the sport is fun (without the MITF, of course).

When I started out, I wanted to be part of it. Still irks me that I can't be. But we are at an impasse. So I am irked. Will continue to be irked.

No, not competing. Kind of wanted to again just to prove to myself I could.....but that is a separate issue. Only making observation. (Kind of think the whole set up over here on ice is kind of.......messed up....) So just observing. Entitled to opinion.

You are wrong. You can be a part of it, you just chose not to be. You're entitled to your opinion, but really, what you want will not happen. I can't say strongly enough that it is completely unfair to limit MIF elements in programs. It's only fair to you because you won't work on them. Tell me, why should the rest of the skating world be penalized for their hard work because you don't like MIF and won't do them? How is that fair?

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