Hey everyone. There's a few things I'm currently struggling with and figure I'm not the only one, plus there are lots who have probably been through this already.

1. Loop jump. I think if I manage to do it once, I'll have it (this is how my other jumps have been and the loop doesn't seem that impossible). But I can't seem to get to a point where I feel comfortable jumping the jump and attempting to land it. What are good practice exercises to get over this? What's the best way to learn to go into it? The 3-turn, backwards crossovers, after a waltz??

2. Spirals. I can do long spirals on any edge on either foot pretty well, but I wonder how you gain the flexibility to stretch the foot higher (I can get mine up to about level with my head, but that's pushing it).

3. Flexibility in general. Any good resources on stretching to increase flexibility for the long-term? I saw a girl today do a shoot-the-duck, but with her free leg pointing up at a 45 degree angle, and I don't have enough leg flexibility to straighten my leg while holding the toepick or heel up in front. I have lots of time to stretch, I just don't know what's most effective.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I think if you have the time to stretch, you are more than halfway there--at least for me, flexibility depends on maintenance!

I've always heard that doing the splits is the best exercise for improving your spiral. Both the spiral and the shoot-the-duck position you mention would require a lot of hamstring & thigh flexibility, which you can work on in quite a few ways:
+ bending over with your feet together & touching your toes or trying to touch your nose to your knees;
+ same thing with feet wide apart--if I'm warmed up I can put my elbows on the floor;
+ sitting on the floor with both legs out in front of you and reaching for your feet;
+ sitting in a straddle position, stretching over each leg and in the center;
+ lying on your back, grabbing one leg and pulling it towards you

This stretch is good for skaters, to keep the piriformis from tightening up and becoming a literal pain in the butt!

It seems to me that as long as you follow the cardinal rule of all stretching (DON'T BOUNCE) and stretch regularly, you'll see results. I don't have a sense (others may differ, though) that some stretches are more effective than others--it's the repetition that's effective.

Remember that strength is just as important as flexibility in spirals. You can have the flexibility to have a beautiful spiral, but if you're not strong enough to lift your leg up high and keep it there, it's not going to help. You can use ankle weights or even put your skate on and practice extending your leg behind you and lifting it as high as you can, then practice your spiral position. Be careful not to bend your knees or let your upper body droop.


nerd_on_ice pretty much posted all the stretches that I mainly do, so I don't have anything else to add. I do use the Maxiflex and love it.

I'd like advice on flips and loops, too.

I think that I am pretty flexible (and 5 years later, I think my flexibility os even better!), and I attribute part of this to stretching at the boards before getting off the ice. Also, while working out at the gym, I would use the Nautilus machines to stretch my legs in between sets. The point there was that my muscles were warmed up, and I had free time between lifting the weights. Flexibility--at least in this guy's opinion--is something that comes very slowly. And the funny thing is that no one else in my family (of 8) is flexible. So to those who claim that flexibility is purely genetic, I have to disagree in part.
I also like to stretch after coming off the ice and taking my skates off. I do many spiral stretches using the wall to prop me up. I also do a few other stretches so that I can achieve and maintain this position, among others, on the ice.

As for the hydroblade or back shoot-the-duck, I practiced this at home (~5 years ago). While watching TV, I would prop myself against the sofa and practice balancing myself on one leg. The hard part of the hydroblade is getting up; it's the same feeling as getting up from a low sit spin, but un the hydroblade/duck, you are moving across the ice so there's this added feeling of instability. So you should work on strengthening the quad muscles. When I first saw someone doing a shoot-the-duck, I told myself that it was just impossible to do. Little did I know that a few years later, it would be a central piece of all my singles programs!

Happy stetching!

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I think that a good exericse for the loop jump is the back power 3 or just right back outside 3-turn--repeatedly. This helps you get in touch with the RBO edge and it can help you get a feel for the rotation. From what I remember about the loop jump is tht you have to initiate the turn before jumping. That is, you do not take off from a straight line; you curve in to the circle you are tracing and then jump up. In fact, you're supposed to ride the RBO edge as much as possible and let the edge guide you into jumping. It sounds weird, but when you do it, it all makes sense.

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Interesting point, considering that I do circuit training at the gym (where I'm doing some other exercise besides stretching in between sets.) I can only park about 2.5 hours at the gym... with 45 min. cardio, 10 to change to gym clothes for the workout, 30 minute abs (and GAINING) and 30 shower and dress, that doesn't leave me much time to do the rest. I do take a good 5 minutes from the abs to stretch, but that's nothing for me!!! I can easily spend over 3 hours at the gym given what I'm doing, but city parking is expen$ive... I try to stretch at home too, but it's not the same. AUGH!!!

Wish I could up my 3xweek visits to the gym but that would cut into my work time and skating. Oh, wait! I already up to 4x b/c of pilates. Never mind...

Re: loop jump: The back power 3's or repeated BO3's that NoVa mentioned is a good exercise for you. Another is to do a BO3's on the line but instead of staying on the blade when you turn, rise up to your toe pick. So if you're facing one direction, when you rise up to the toe pick you should be facing the other direction. Once you master that, hop on that toe pick and do a half turn. Voila! Instant loop jump!!! (Key is to get that BO3 though!!!)

NoVa: I humbly have to partially disagree with you about the genetics part. My husband, who is totally out of shape, has open hips and can easily do a outside spread eagle. Me, I'm born with closed hips and am struggling thru yoga pose exercises to open them up. Admitted, they are more flexible than when I started, but I still can't get them open enough to open up after a couple of years of stretching at the end of the workout and at home. It also gets harder when you're in your 30's too. It's not an excuse to not keep doing this... just an acknowledgement that it's gonna take longer for me to get as flexible as you are now...

Supposedly, my closed hip is a big advantage for multi-rotational jumps. I'll let you know if I EVER get there...

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Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Heh, my problem seems to be opposite. I have no problem doing shoot-the ducks or getting up from them, but there are definite limits on how far my muscles will move. I used to be a lot more flexible as a little kid - grr... guess that's what I get for sitting at a desk for the past few years.

How do you do a back power 3?

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

thats something you are going to have to ask some one at your rink to demonstrate for you...
i can try to explain... we'll see how that one goes:
back three, mohawk... back three mohawk... repeated over and over again!
what helped get my loop was doing a backthree from a stand still, jump up and landing as far around as i could, in a back stratch/spin... dont worry about roation at first, get the one foot landing... i ran into that probelm on my axel and it compeletly messed me up... causeing my axel to go down the drain... until my new coach told me to just land on ONE foot and not worry about the rotation
also... working on half loops helps lots too

Jazz, I have totally open hips and I really have to fight to keep the free hip closed when I'm working on double jumps. The more open your free hip is, the slower your rotation speed, so your closed hips WILL help you.

I wouldn't trade mine, though, because who knows if I'll ever get those jumps consistent, but I LOVE outside spread eagles and especially outside Bauers!

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Can you cheat a loop by launching off two feet?

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No.

Open vs. closed hips as regards to spread eagles isn't flexibility, it's bone structure.

Best thing I ever did for flexibility was take a yoga class--I took it for 3 years--not something you can do for 8 weeks & expect to see results....It takes awhile, but you work into it & I got so much stronger & SO much more flexible. I do Iyengar yoga, which is a more strenuous form than some of the others like Hatha.

IMO, the easiest way to learn a loop is from a FI 3-turn entrance. Back power 3's, as mentioned before, are also a great exercise--can you do back outside 3 turns? If so, you can probably learn this exercise--someone at the rink can show you. It first shows up in Juvenile moves.

Loop-Loop,

I also have really open hips and have to fight at keeping the free hip closed. Free hips are a blessing for spirals but a pain in doubles.


Casey,

Okay...loops. I love loops. =-) You really have to trust the edge and this takes practice. The more comfortable you get with the jump the more you will ride the edge. Speed, riding the edge and good spring is what makes the loop. Well, and keep over that right side! (If your right handed that is.) I learned a loop from a right inside mohawk. However, I now can do them from footwork, spirals, lunges etc. I've even farted with 2 loops. =-) Oh, and make sure you really keep your check. (No floating arms!)

Chico

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Cool I fuess I've done a loop then. I'll be honest it's one of things that once you've done, you wonder why it was so hard to get your self to do it in the first place.

Is there any reason why all cheats are based on landings (save for the flutz I think). I mean my instructor said oyu could begin half a rotation on a toe loop while still on the ice.

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Most jumps do begin rotation on the ice, but there are ways to cheat takeoffs that make the jump null & void. For example if you rotate the toe loop so far (usually people do this by opening up their left shoulder) that the toe goes into the ice going forward instead of backward, it's not a true toe loop.

And I meant that you can't take off for a loop on 2 feet (for it not to be cheated)--it has to be the right back outside edge (for CCW). Sometimes you'll see people stay on both feet for a long time & it looks like they're taking off from both, but it's an illusion--all the weight is on the back foot & the front foot lifts before they actually jump.

My toe goes in backwards, then I spin round on it..... and for the Salchow, if I attempt one (which I seldom do), it tends to go round and round on the ice, and then hop backwards..... must have another go. Don't jump much, really, only 3-jumps (waltz jumps), but ought to be able to do a sal. Could do a loop if shown (can do one off-ice), but have no real interest in doing so, although I'll not be competitive in this country (in interp/artistic) until I can.

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Wow Annabel that's really interesting, sounds like a whole new element, I should patent it if I were you!!

I can do that off the ice fairly easily. It astonishes so many people that I can do that. They all get a kick out of it. I just can't do it on the ice, I think it's more of a balance thing though. But flexibility is partly genetic, partly enviromental. Sometimes your environment can take over genetics. My grandma used to train on the Soviet olympic gymnastics team, so she's really flexible. I used to love it when my grandma would do splits with me when I was younger. So there has to be something going on I think. Maybe you had a random mutation that made you more flexible.

But to jazzpants and whoever else has closed hips, there are stretches to make them more open. My coach told me of a good one, and i've actually seen some results with it. You lie on your stomach with your legs straight. Then, take one leg and bend it and place the foot of that leg underneath the thigh of the other leg. That hip will then be raised, and try to get it to go down into the floor. Do it on the other side. It actually feels like a nice stretch too. If you do it in conjunction with practicing the outside spread eagles, yuo should see some results in time. I used to not be able to do them at all, and now I can get a scratchy little one. But it's something. And it's getting better.

When I was taking ballet classes, we would occasionally have stretching times, which were generally very good, even if they weren't nearly often enough. The instructor used to jest about yoga taking too long while we were doing it the fast way. Well in reality we only stretched about once every 2 weeks for 20 minutes, so it didn't accomplish too much. I would really like to just find a group of athletes and such who want to get together for a daily stretch session or something to keep me doing it, but I doubt that will happen...

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I bet that would help. Unfortunately, though I've been shown a half loop, I'm not exactly sure how one pulls it off. I've been stuck for several weeks (mostly because of lack of skating) just completely uncertain how to take off. Since I have no confidence, I rarely actually try, and then I'm so nervous that I always make some disaster of it and then I just try to stay on my feet any which way I can. I think what Shinn said is true - at least I know it was for my other jumps - once you actually manage to *do* it once, then things become clearer and you can start working on making it better.

I'm just stuck at the beginning of it.

My coach showed me the toe loop and salchow during a short lesson one day, and I *understood* those jumps even though I couldn't do them, so I went out and tried and tried and tried, got the toe loop that day, and the salchow a couple days later. I feel like I'm just in the dark on the loop.

Is there a way to practice it (or the half loop??) off ice? Or maybe somebody has a nice slow motion video ))).

I almost feel like the flip would be easier - I do half flips in both directions all the time and I feel really good about the jump and can get plenty of height (I think anyways). I just haven't mustered up enough courage to try adding rotation. Does anybody learn the flip before the loop, generally?

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

My sister learned her flip before her loop, but generally (I think) you learn your loop first.

Im stuck on my loop as well. I think it's mainly the backward outside edge that Im doing wrong.

Do you bend more at the ankles?
Or at the knees or both?

Also does anyone have any tips for backward 3's, I think that's another reason why the loop is so hard for me.

~kittie

the only one i can think of right now is what i do off-ice for my double loop:
you stand in your take off position, one foot in front and the other (with all your weigt on it) in back, bend your knees, lauch and squeeze!
loops came easy for me, it was the flip that took FOREVER... i think it depends on you, which one you learn first, i have seen kids get the loop right away, and then others who have the flip!
good luck!

You usually do pretty well in artistics I thought!

Well I wish it were true for me that being able to do one off ice means you can do one on-ice. I have no problem with full rotation jumps off-ice. Even got a pretty good attempt at an inside axel off-ice but on-ice is another matter entirely.

I am getting there with the loop but I used to practice them only once a week in a jumps class and for nearly 6 months I sat on that back outside edge wondering how it was possible to move from that position at all - let alone actually jump from it. I could sort of do one from the inside 3 but it felt really uncontrolled so I was determined to do one from the back crossovers position.

The breakthrough for me came when I realised I had to get my weight much further back - like sitting on a chair - with bent knees and HOLD THAT BACK EDGE for much longer than I was really comfortable with, so that you initiate the turn on the ice. Then I just have to remember to snap through with the right arm for the rotation (bringing it up and through and in) and bend the knee before jumping and look in the direction of the jump and goodness knows how many other things at the same time. On the rare occasions I get it all right I think - "wow! - that was easy!" - but somehow I can rarely repeat it. Sometimes doing it REALLY slowly helps to get it back again.

One of my problems is that if I get up and get the rotation I dont' always manage to hold the landing because I forget to snap my free leg back and/or I bend in the middle, so now I have to remember to tighten the stomach muscles when I jump as well as everything else. So I practise the back outside edge landing position (back crossovers, little hop and landing position) and also back 3 turns keeping the free leg in front and the backspin (not that I can do a backspin but practising it helps the loop attempts).

I quite often land a quarter rotation short though so any tips for increased rotation would be useful. I do try to do off-ice rotation practice before doing loops now.

As for flexibility - well my chiropractor said my back had all the flexibility of an 80 year old so I'm not the person to ask!

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I've learned half-flip (not that I'm allowed to do it now.) When talking to my coach about learning jumps, she told me we'd get the (half) flip, toe-loop, salchow, and lutz, then tackle the loop. As she explained it, the loop is the first full-rotation jump learned. At least that's the way we will approach it.

Since we have worked on all the half jumps, I want to improve on them. However, I read that a good, well-balanced pre-bronze program can include jumps excluding lutz and axel. Guess I'll have to take the lutz out of my program.

Casey,
Have you tried doing the loop from a right forward inside 3? That's how i do mine. The trick is to keep the free (left ) leg in front. For eons, it was HARD to keep that free leg in front. To get the muscle memory down, I worked on the backscratch spin, since that's the same free leg position for loop!

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I think the tough part of learning the loop is feeling safe rotating backwards over your right hip. The waltz jump, toeloop and salchow all allow you to jump forwards as soon as you take off, so there's a comfort zone there. but the loop is the first one that forces you to stay backwards. i would highly recommend working on the backspin to get used to rotating backwards over the right hip without opening up the left hip/leg. Even if you can't get more than 1-2 rotations on the backspin, it will help you with the air position on the loop.

Once you have 1-2 revolutions on the backspin and aren't too afraid of it, try a loop from a RFI3. Pretend you're going to go into a backspin, but just before you feel yourself starting to spin, straighten your skating leg and point the toe so that you leave the ice. You don't have to stay up long, since the rotation happens pretty quickly in the air.

The trick is to let your hip start turning while you're still on the ice, before your upper body starts to turn, so that your hip has already started the rotation before it leaves the ice. Then your upper body just catches up automatically in there air.