Have been lurking on [the Artistic Judging] thread. (Of course)

Guess this is what irks me so much about ice..... The fact that superior "skating skills" (read that MITF) are rewarded in the sense that one has to take the MITF and pass it prior to taking the freestyle for that level, but one may keep taking these MITF tests up to and including senior level yet fall behind on freestyle and it's.......All ok. Still a great skater with excellent edges. Maybe no 2loop. But an excellent skater.

However.....
If someone wants to do the opposite.....Bad skater. Need to practice edges. Pass MITF. So he/she can do a few gymnastics. Big deal.

The synchro skater you are referring to seems to be the antithesis of myself and "my skaters." She has superior MITF and most likely has passed higher MITF tests (since she would be allowed to do so without taking the corresponding freestyle tests, unlike "my" skaters.) She is allowed to use her "best weapons" (MITF abilities) at all levels of competition, while we would be limited in which jumps we could preform. Everyone is excited about her and welcomes her with open arms claiming that trying to "keep up with her" will make everyone better skaters. While "my" skaters will, at best, be called sandbaggers. No one will belittle her for not preforming double jumps (if, indeed, she cannot), but if it was obvious that "my" skates had scratchy edges etc. I have the feeling there are some competitors who may make fun of them because they have the double jumps yet have scratchy edges......

Doesn't anyone see a type of double standard here? I understand you may agree with it. (The old: This is skating not jumping/spinning argument.) That's fine. But do you at least see it?


Mod Note: Tidal thread drift = New thread. Again. Must be a full moon.

Pandora, I do see what you're trying to say. But in the case of going on with MITF and dance without keeping up with the corresponding FS, that's part of the great thing about skating. Even if you don't want to jump, or can't for whatever reason, there's still a Gold medal to work for. It's not necessarily that a skater "falls behind" on freestyle, but in the case of adult skating, there's only so far some of us can go. I'll never pass my Senior free, but Senior moves are an attainable goal. I know more than a few Gold ladies who are working on Senior moves or have passed them.

I guess I just don't see it as a double standard. I know you've had issues with the way the ice skating structure works, but that is the way it is.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Guess it is only a double standard to the side it is working "against." You mentioned that it is one of the great things about skating (that you can test up without freestyle.) I see it as one of the worst, but that is because it goes "against" my side, to to speak.

But thanks for acknowledging it. Seriously. So often I've mentioned something like this and other skaters are like: Nope. Don't see it. Have no clue what you're referring to. And I'm like: It's there. It's right there. I can understand agreeing with the system/defending it, but at least admit that this....circumstance.......exists.

In the end, though, have to agree with you. That is the way it is.

First, let me clarify that the freedom for skaters to pass higher level MIF without having to compete at a higher level is not a rule specifically designed for the adults. It was put in place for the standard track and they just didn't make an exception for the adult track (because there was no reason to).

I understand your point, Pandora. Logically, it makes sense. However, there are several good reasons why the USFSA would want to encourage skaters of all levels to spend more time working on MIF. While there are some adults who like MIF, I think that for most competitive skaters of ALL ages, the MIF are seen as a necessary evil--a series of tests you need to pass before you are allowed to take your freestyle tests. For this reason, it makes sense to offer the higher level MIF tests as an incentive to skaters who want to gain a competitive edge at their level (and this option is open to every skater at every level, so if the other skaters don't like being outskated, they can just work on higher level MIF, too).

It is also my understanding that the USFSA wants to encourage skaters to spend some time on edges and skating skills, not just jump, jump, jump. When figures were required--which was for most of the history of this sport--skaters spent 50% of their practice time on figures, which meant they had a lot less time to jump than skaters do now. There are already a lot more serious injuries now that skaters are free from figures and spend twice as much time jumping. Just imagine how many more knee, hip and back injuries there would be if skaters didn't have to spend some of their time on MIF.

We adults have the same issue. If you want to have more jumping years ahead of you, don't repeat my mistake of jumping jumping jumping just because you think you need to jump while you can. After throwing my back out practicing jumps too much (something I could always get away with until I hit 40), I now force myself to spend 25% of my practice time doing MIF. My physical therapist told me I had to start using the muscles on both sides of my body and start doing things in both directions, and MIF was exactly that. I have not had any problems since I added MIF back into my regimen and started limiting my jump repetitions, and I would strongly recommend this to all adult skaters (especially women aged 40 and over, since changing hormone levels make us more susceptible to back problems, among other things).

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

ALL skaters take field moves tests they are required for ALL please explain once again WHY are you the exception to the rules that every single member of US figure skating follows?

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Who me? Couldn't be....
http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r

seriously? we're doing this again?

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What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

My thought, too.

Here's my take on this: at the Gold level, it is not unusual to see skaters with high level MIF tests. A lot of Gold skaters skated as kids - some stopped and came back, some never stopped - but for whatever reason, they haven't reached the level of Masters (remember, to pass Int FS, you not only need the MIF test but at least one double and a flying spin (I think 5 revs?) ). It goes without saying that at the Gold level, you're going to find some kick@$$ skaters. If you choose to skate at Gold, you have to accept that. I don't consider anyone at Gold level with high MIF to be sandbagging.

Now, when you're talking about the lower levels, things get murky. There are plenty of skaters 'stuck' at Silver b/c they just can't get an axel, or at least a consistent one, so they don't move up. Does that mean they should be banned from testing higher levels of MIF? Or banned from competing if they pass those tests? Of course not. At Bronze and Pre-Bronze, generally most skaters are at the same level. I've noticed that most competitive skaters stay in Bronze for a couple of years and then move up to Silver when they pass the moves and/or collect some wins at Bronze. Yes, you do occasionally find former kid skaters at Bronze, and yeah, maybe they have an advantage, but that's part of competing. Someone will always have an advantage, whether it's better jumps, or better basic skating, etc. You deal with it and try to be happy with what you have done. I competed in Pre-Bronze once with a woman who obviously either skated as a kid, or reached a high level in dance tests - her hardest jump was a sal but she did a change-edge spread eagle that took up half the length of the ice and a very flexible Ina Bauer. And her stroking - power and ice coverage - was miles better than the others in the event. Was she sandbagging? Well, maybe, or maybe she was just testing the waters of adult FS comp, who knows. I've never seen her again, so maybe she decided FS wasn't for her.

But you can't make up rules based on one person's situation or one occurrence. If you're going to compete, you have to accept the rules and accept that not everything is going to go your way all the time.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Nope. Not really the same thing again. Seems unfair that someone who is very gifted at MITF (like the ex synchro skater mentioned) is able to use all their MITF (even those off high level tests) at any level of competition. (For instance, a gifted MITF skater could, theoretically, do a Level 3 or 4 footwork sequence in Silver.) Whereas, someone gifted at freestyle is limited in the area of jumping (all the way up to masters), and on spinning (until gold).....Seems kind of lop sided, doesn't it?....Perhaps should ban all MITF over the prescribed level (like they do with jumps). No twizzles until masters senior. Brackets are on gold, right? So brackets are ok at gold, but not counters and rockers (even if skaters can do them.) Seems like that would be fair.....right?

Also, still see a double standard in that those skates who cannot do jumps (axel and above) are defended because those jumps are "hard," whereas anyone who has trouble with that level MITF or above, (but can do the corresponding freestyle), is simply considered "lazy"....YET....Ice skaters seem to want to stress that the MITF are as difficult (and important) as the freestyle elements (especially the jumps), if not actually more difficult than the freestyle elements. Just don't see how you can have it both ways, that's all. If the MITF are actually as difficult as the freestyle elements, than, logically, those skates who find them difficult but can do the freestyle should be given the same "pass" as the skaters who cannot do the freestyle but can do high level moves. (No one calls them lazy?) Right?

Simply pointing out you (plural collective) cannot have it both ways.....

Don't worry coskater64, I will follow the rules (since I am not an exception). I have officially given up all hope of competing on ice. (Lexi informed me that I would need to find several more skaters in my predicament who would back me in order to have enough to form an event. Unfortunately, I could only find 4.). So I will have to stay on youtube. Maybe put up some routines on there. Pity. I know you were excited about possibly skating against me at Nats some day.....

Since we are at this again, I'm going to chime in. I am a new adult skater, though I skated a little when I was younger. (through Basic Skills, waltz jump, two foot spin, etc) Then stopped for about 4-5 years and came back when I started college and have tested up to preliminary moves and pre preliminary freestyle. I know the chances of me doing doubles is probably relatively low. I know the chances of me doing flying spins is probably relatively low.

MIF is something that is doable for everyone and the basis for everything in the sport. At least at these lower levels, the emphasis seems to be on edges and turns. Without solid 3 turns, jumps just don't happen. Without solid edges, landings don't just happen. Right now, my two works in progress on the freestyle side are loop jumps and camel spins. I know my entry edge into both of these moves needs work...also known as MIF. I know for me at least without MIF, footwork sequences would be darn near impossible. I can at least dream about maybe one day taking Senior Moves, Senior Free?

There is a reason that the sport is called FIGURE Skating. The basis of the sport at that time was in...well...figures, not jumps, not spins, but quality edges, turns, and other patterns. I have followed your posts before and I am sorry you are not happy with the structure of the sport, but it is what it is. I'm not sure why you seem to be so afraid of taking any moves tests, for someone who comes across as very competitive it would be another goal to achieve.

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Check my progress at www.freewebs.com/sk8tegirl06

Just commenting on the fact that lop sided skills seem fine on ice as long as it is the MITF that overshadows the freestyle, not the other way around. That's all.

Like I said in the first post. Just wanted to point it out. I understand that many (most?) skaters will defend this. (Whole figure skating vs ice jumping thing.) But just wanted to point this out.

What I think many of the posters are trying to point out, is that the MIF needs to be more advanced because it is the basis for elements of freestyle.

You really can't have one without the other. The whole chicken or egg argument, which came first?

I wish there was an answer for you, but it is what it is

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Check my progress at www.freewebs.com/sk8tegirl06

How about this? Go actually work on the moves in the field and give those poor bold, italic and emoticon codes a little rest. They're working overtime and need a break.

I don't *get* how in the world you can get all those jumps and yet your MITF is really weak? There's just no way anyone can get those jumps w/o good edge foundation.

As for the competition, sorry to tell 'ya, but it is what it is!!! I mean... I don't like it just as much as the next person, but the fact is...it is what it is. I can either go and complain 'til I'm blue in the face, or I can just "shut up and skate" and work my butt off on those moves.

Besides, moves isn't so bad. I mean, it's certainly EASIER on my lower back!!! (Unless of course, I fall funny or somethin', then I'm in BIG trouble!!! )

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

It could be - used to be - worse. It used to be compulsory figures.

Seriously, no matter how good your jumps and spins are, as we have not tired of telling you, they will be infinitely better if you work on your basic skating.

I wonder if you realise that MITF is actually only basic skating, the sort of skills that every skater needs to work on every session if they are to make progress. I think you may not be aware of what is involved in the various tests.

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Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I don't understand why you can't just do footwork for a while to improve, you can't be that far behind if you are able to control your edges well enough to do double jumps. I came back to skating this year after 10 years away and I could do all the jumps I did before but my edges and even crossovers were fairly poor. I have worked hard on my basic skating and it has improved a huge amount in less than a year, the quality of my elements has greatly improved with better edges and I look a lot better on the ice.

I did my first competition recently and was only allowed up to a loop even though I have a very good flip and can land a lutz. I felt afterwards that I was between two categories because my basic skating and spins weren't good enough for the higher level but my jumps were a bit much for the lower level. After the competition I decided to work on the things that were missing for the next level and that is all I've been doing for the last couple of months.

I will probably miss the next competition because I have a lot to learn but I don't care, I'd rather look good on the ice and give a proper performance than do a few scratchy jumps and nothing else.

How do you know this skater is very "gifted" at MIF? To achieve what she has in MIF and Dance takes a lot of hard work and practice. Clearly she is talented, but I'm pretty sure her accomplishments come from years of work and practice as opposed to simply being "gifted".

Absolutely no way should higher level MIF skaters be banned from using their skills in competitions. No way. That's only "fair" to you. It punishes everyone else who worked hard to get to their MIF level. Absolutely no way should everyone else be brought down. Many of my Gold competitors have a higher MIF than me. I only have Intermediate. It's my problem I'm at a lower level than they are, not the other way around.

Where, and who, is saying that people without a higher MIF level are "lazy"? I don't consider myself lazy. Perhaps you're interpreting it this way because you want to compete under our system, but not play by our rules because they don't suite your purposes or you just plain don't want to.

You were a roller skater, right? How would you like it if I as an ice skater came in to roller skating and demanded that I should be able to compete at a high level without taking any of your tests? To just be able to enter because I want to and I feel I should be able to. It wouldn't be cool if it was the other way around, and it's not cool when you as a roller skater turned ice skater do it to our system.

I am curious as to the other 4 in your "predicament". Other roller turned ice skaters? Do none of them want to take the MIF tests either? I just don't see why you refused to even consider the idea of taking any MIF tests or practicing them. Truly, it will make your skating better. You're a good jumper and spinner....I'd love to have a back camel like yours. The tests wouldn't be extremely difficult for you, so I don't see you're you're so obstinate about this. We all had to take them since we wanted to compete. If you want to, that's just what you'd have to do too. None of us were special enough to get out of it. You're not either, just because your skating situation puts you in a tiny minority of people dosen't mean you get any preferential treatment. That includes making a whole new level just for you. If you were willing to work with the system, that would be one thing. But you just believe that you are the exception and everyone needs to work around you. It dosen't work like that.....in figure skating, or in "real life".

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

Pandora - I've seen you argue, brag and boast on I don't know how many boards, and I don't see why you don't get it. Figure skating is about more than just the jumps.

If someone competed with jumps with nothing else, judges would not reward that because it's not a well-rounded program. And if that's all someone did was jump, the skater better be sure those jumps are textbook, displaying right technique in takeoff and landings. That means jumping off an edge instead of a flat, no wrap, no pre-rotation or cheated landings.

What is it exactly that you want from ice skating anyway? There are avenues within the sport for those who have strengths in one area over another to claim a gold medal if they want one (spins, jumps, MIF, compulsory, interp events), but if you think USFSA should restructure their competition structure in order to reward your jumping prowess, I wholeheartedly disagree, be it standard or adult track. A champion knows how to successfully master ALL aspects of the sport, from moves to spins to jumps to artistic expression.

As for some sort of double standard, I disagree as well. I do believe novice through senior synchro skaters, in order to be competitive, have to demonstrate and compete with a mastery of synchro and MIF elements, but also strong singles skating elements such as spins and jumps which are called "highlight" moves.

Watching Olympic caliber ice dancers, they too have to demonstrate dance and freestyle elements. Those dance spins? Modified pairs spins. There's freestyle elements hidden in all that edgework too.

There's so much to learn and explore in figure skating, to concentrate soley on one aspect would cripple and stagnate the sport. IIRC from one of Christine Brennan's books, a judge commented on the sport that for the men's long program, which is 4 1/2 minutes long, the man spends only about 10 seconds in the air. And they'd better do something spectacular with the rest of that time. I agree.

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Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

What you may not realize is that if a skater went out & did ONLY footwork, with no jumps, they would not win. You seem to think the judging is completely slanted towards MIF, and it isn't. The key term here is "Well Balanced Program."

What you also may not realize, is that, even if the MIF *elements* were limited, the skater with the higher/more polished skating skills would still be very, very obvious. Don't believe me? Watch Yuka Sato do nothing but basic stroking/edges sometime. Or Katya Gordeeva. There is a quality there that shines through anything they do.

Also ITA w/ the poster who said that MIF really is basic skating. It does have difficult elements, yes, but mainly the thing adults struggle with is the power required at the higher levels, not so much the elements themselves. MIF is not rocket science.

Never said anyone who works hard at MITF or dance or.....anything....was "lazy." I was just using "reverse logic" since I have often been accused of "laziness" because I choose to spend several hours straight falling (hard) on a jumps rather than dedicate that time to something like MITF. If that makes me lazy, then so be it.

As for roller. We would not exclude you because on roller there are no tests. (At least when I competed. Heard they may be slowly phasing it in now, but it is not really enforced.) Actually, I'd have no problem with you comming into roller and competing against me. (Not just because I can skate on roller, but because that it my mindset. Let everyone in. I have no problem with that. The more the merrier.)

Also, if a skater could not land doubles on roller, they eventually "gravitated" to dance. (There is a solo freedance event that allows single jumps and 2 small spins. It is very popular.) Back when I skated there wasn't even A and B catagories. Generally, it went by age. By the time the skaters hit Freshman (usually early teens), they either had doubles, went to dance, got beaten (constantly), or quit. Now there is a "beginner" catagory. (Think it is A). Personally, don't even see why this exists since there is solo dance. But there you have it. If you want to buy a pair of artistic inlines (and are over age 13), then you will skate World Class which means "senior." That's it. No beginner. You would skate against me. (If I could find a rink and practice that is.) All of us at WC have doubles. The winner has a heel camel. Again, there is no beginner event. Beginner skaters are allowed to enter (if they want to), but they will be badly beaten.
However ......THEY ARE ALLOWED TO ENTER IF THEY WANT TO. (That's the point!)

Sorry, I like my italics, my bolds, and my faces. Love the faces (emotes).

Yes, you can have great jumps without good MITF.....Bonaly.

I'm very sorry, but it is unfair that the only elements that are restricted are the jumps. (It may "work" for most adults who find jumping.....difficult...but it is unfair since you don't limit the spins and MITF.) Can't you see that, by doing so you are singling out one aspect of the sport and discriminating against it. (Picking on the jumpers, so to speak.) Yes, skating is about more than jumping.....but jumps ARE an important part of skating (like it or not) and should not be unfairly limited while other aspects are not.

P.S. Like I said, I gave up all thoughts of competing on ice. Will continue to be general pain by posting on youtube, attending adult camps etc. just to point out that there is something very wrong with the system. (Which I have a right to do. It is America, after all.)

Just keep posting your not very good jumps on youtube and feel good about yourself - why keep posting here?

Well....The insults for one. Do so love insults.

And....Anyone who actually views this thread and bothers to think about what I wrote can see I have logical points (even if they disagree.) Like I wrote, this is America. Sorry.

PML! Too funny...

You also appear to love beating a horse that has been dead for about a month. But whatever floats your boat!

Yea, Bonaly was a great jumper, much more of an athlete than an artist. But she obviously had decent enough MIF to get to the World scene. I don't know how the standard track works, but even in the standard competitive test track, jumps and spins are limited to those on the respective test. (Read: kids) I think you are just going to have to agree to disagree with the posters on this board, and stop posting about how awful you have it because you "can't" compete. We can't understand how jumpers are singled out because without the basics 99.999% of skaters simply do not have the skills necessary to jump. While you can't understand how these basic skills are necessary. 99.999% of the general population does not find joy in throwing themselves in the air and hoping they land in one piece.

Seriously though, the first MIF test, pre-pre or pre-bronze is pretty much an encouragement test. If you wanted to you could probably pass it tomorrow. Most of us are sucked into this crazy sport because of the challenge and the desire to improve. Most of us don't only work on the elements we are good at.

One of my and my coach's goals before my next competition is to improve speed and power. So for the last five minutes of each lesson, I have to do laps/crossovers usually with a time goal. Last time, it was two laps in under 55 seconds, I think. Well, I did it in 51 seconds, which for me was a huge improvement. Do I like the power development skills she makes me do? NO Do I look forward to those last five minutes? NO Do I do each one to the best of my ability? YES, because I know these will make me a better skater.

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Check my progress at www.freewebs.com/sk8tegirl06

Actually, it's a different horse. (Limiting MITF by level since the jumps and, to a point the spins, are limited by test level.) Some of the other posters tried to make it the same horse. But in reality it is a horse of a different color.