Does anyone know the answer to this -- I am working on Adult Gold MIF and originally thought when i eventually pass these that i would be grandfathered in the standard track as Intermediate level. But i think i mis-read something, and now think i must pass Intermediate also to next go to the next level.

If this is the case, it appears there is only one more MIF at the same level under "Intermediate" that is not on the "Adult GOld MIF" list of patterns (Intermediate and Adult Gold are same moves, minus 1). When i test, can i ask for all to be combined and pay only one fee, or how does that work?

I have emailed USFS and have not yet gotten a response. Any input would be appreciated!

You will switch over to the standard track beginning with Intermediate MIF. And you'll have to take the Intermediate as a whole separate test. I suppose you could take them both on the same day if you wanted, but you'd still pay for 2 tests. And of course you're risking money on the contingent test.

Remember the passing standards are different, so even though the elements are the same they're judging them a little differently, so you couldn't combine them anyway (besides, then they wouldn't get all that extra $$$ from you! )

Boy, did Phoenix get that right.

After passing the Adult Gold MIF, you can slide over to the standard track and test the Intermediate MIF. You will need to pass the Intermediate MIF, before taking another Intermediate test, such as the Intermediate Freestyle and Intermediate Pairs test.

I passed my Adult Gold MIF test in one try. I will be taking my Intermediate MIF test, again, at the end of August for the 4th time. All though these two tests (AGMIF and INTMIF) and identical with the exception of one pattern, they are totally judged at a different passing average and standard. This makes the INTMIF test soooooo much harder.

I made the same mistake: I thought "Oh, they're the same test, and I should take it right now while everything is fresh just having passed the AGMIF, then I won't have to throw more $$$ into lessons, ect..." Well, that was a year ago. I'm not saying don't take it, or don't pursue the INTMIF, I'm just giving you a heads up that although the two tests look the same, they are very different animals.

Plus, if you happen to get one judge on your panel who deep down believes that Adults shouldn't be testing on the standard track, then you are sunk no matter what you do. Before judges reading this start yelling at me, I'm not saying ALL judges, just some. For example, we have had one judge in our area who has come out openly and said that she didn't think Adults should test standard track and is totally against it. However, this same judge refuses to recuse herself from panels where she has to judge adults on standard. A lot of skaters when they see her on the panel simply will not test, which means their hard work and test application fee goes right down the drain. Again, I'm not saying the majority of judges feel, or behave this way, but there is an issue about Adults testing standard that has to be addressed and delt with by the skater when testing standard. Testing on the Standard Track as an adult is a very different experience then testing on the Adult Track as an adult. That's all I'm trying to say.

Wow, first let me congratulate all the adults here working on or past Adult Gold. You are my inspiration!

If I'm reading the sites correctly, if you pass Adult Gold, you can compete in Adult Gold or Adult Championship Gold. But if you want to compete in Masters Championship, you have to pass Intermediate FS, right?

Also, how does grandfathering work on other levels on the Adult track/standard track?

I passed adult gold moves this winter and am taking intermediate moves this summer. The focus is power and edge quality in intermediate moves and in adult gold they are not focused on power. I agree that these two test are really different test. I know two adults who have taken this test several times and have great power and had a clean test and not pass.I have also watched dozens of kids take this test and do quite frankly a terrible job and pass. So maybe there is a judging bias on adults in the standard track..

Yes

There was a whole chart developed by the Adult Skating committee which passed last summer, I believe. It lists the crossover rules from standard to adult for MIF and FS. Does anyone have those charts that can be linked here?

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Whatever!

Tables

In the 2006 rule book:

Crossovers for Standard track MIF to Adult MIF is on page 343, TR19.02
Tables for Standard MIF to Adult FS tests is on page 361, TR28.01
A very important paragraph regarding Gold skaters who have no prior MIF test because their gold test preceded the adult MIF structure, can be found on page 360, TR26.02

I don't think the rule book contents can be obtained on line but if it is someone can correct me.

I've got my copy at home! Thanks for the references.....

So I gather that except for Adult Gold, adult tests do not transfer over to standard track, right?

The Adult Gold MIF test doesn't transfer to the standard track, either. It's just that it's the last adult test and once you've passed it, you are allowed to start testing on the standard track, starting with Intermediate. You cannot transfer over from the Adult track to the standard track at any lower level, although you CAN transfer over at any level from the standard track to the equivalent level on the Adult track.

Thanks, everyone, for all the info... you all have been great!

I can't help but think that as close to completion of Intermediate level as the Adult Gold is, it seems that USFS is a little greedy on the $$ side of things. I'd rather have it all combined, even if i failed it and had to re-try. It makes me a little angry at the system set up. Most of the rest i am okay with.

I guess i'll have to work my hardest to test the Adult Gold at the Intermediate quality, so that when i send USFS my VERY hard-earned money, i won't be even more frustrated.

I've seen this, too!

Miraclegrow,

They are two very very different test, and could never be combined.

In order to become an Adult Master Pair team we have no choice but to slide over to the Standard Track take the Intermediate Moves then the Intermediate Pairs test. If we pass the Intermediate Pairs test we become Adult Master Pairs. Quite frankly, I think this is screwed up. I think they should have just continued the the Adult Track to include an Adult Master Pairs test. It just seems strange to have to slide over into a space that isn't designed for adults in order to slide back into an Adult title...see what I'm sayin? I don't mind the challenge of being on the kids track, so much, if I didn't feel there was a prejudice against me for being there. Hey, I didn't ask to be there, but there is no other avenue to become an Adult Master Pair skater...so, wadda ya want from me???

Here's my 0.02 cents.

I think the adult moves don't prepare the skater adequately to crossover to the Intermediate MITF. A lot of the key moves are missing that build the power, edge quality, core checking, quickness and knee bend they're looking for at Intermediate MITF.

If you have passed Adult Gold, and want to test Intermediate MITF, my recommendation would be to go back and work on passing all the standard track moves through Juvenile. Yes, hate me for saying this, but this way you build a very solid foundation.

Nobody likes the grunt conditioning work, but it makes it easier to work on the more advanced moves than trying over and over again and getting stuck on the higher level tests, because the foundation isn't there.

If you master the low level moves, and by that I mean doing the low level moves with a lot of proficiency and smoothness, way beyond test standard, the hard stuff becomes easy.

If you think it's bad at Intermediate, wait till Novice. I've seen adults stuck there for years struggling with the steps because their basic foundation really needs work.

Nobody likes it, but the most valuable suggestion i'd give is to go back to lower level skills and refine them before moving up. The same concept applies to jumps and spins. If the double or triple jump isn't working, go back to the single. If the spin combination isn't working, go back to the solo spin, etc etc.

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

That really does make sense. I'll keep that in mind, many years down the road.

I actually passed Intermediate about a year and a half before I passed Gold. And because I was working on Gold, I neglected Novice, which I'm working on now. Novice is going to take FOREVER!

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

What moves are you referring to? The only standard track moves that are missing from the adult track are the Prelim spirals, the alt 3's (although I and many others did have to pass these b/c we tested Pre-Bronze MIF before Sept of last year - we missed the waltz 8, although my coach taught it to me as an exercise to help with the power 3's and 5-step), and the Juv back power 3's. Now, I could see where working on the back power 3's would be important, to prepare you for the Int back stroking w/ back power 3's around the end, but I don't know how important the others are beyond the moves adults would have tested by the time they finish Gold.

Or are you saying that the judges have lower expectations for adults and don't require them to demonstrate skills to the degree that they'll need them in Intermediate and beyond? Well, I think that varies with the judge and with the skating/judging culture of different regions of the country.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Before the adult moves were revised in 2005, the following moves were missing from the adult testing structure:

power pulls from pre-juv test
back power threes from the juvenile test (and still doesn't exist on adult track iirc)
alternating spirals from preliminary

The back power 3s plays a big role on the outside double 3 pattern and on the back perimeter power stroking with back power 3s. The back power 3s are revisited again on the slide chasse pattern. Power pulls play a foundation role in the slide chasse pattern - rip on the inside edge, as well as learning the how to generate power effectively with control - good for forward and backward power circles.So if you think back power3s aren't important to have solid before intermediate mitf, think again. This one move from the juvenile test shows up 3 times on the Intermediate test and the power level is expected to be higher than the previous level, where the skill is first demonstrated.

Also the preliminary alt-3s were on the pre-bronze test and scored pass/fail instead of at standard track prelim test at 2.5 which IMHO is a significant difference. Also note that the Backward russian stroking is on the bronze test, scored at 2.5 instead of the 2.7 set for pre-juv standard test, another significant difference. I believe the order and standard at which the moves are tested on adult track can contribute to the problems mentioned earlier.

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

This is such an interesting discussion, I'm just learning about marks and such because the ABM test I just took was the first ever for me with scores.

Another diff between IM and AGM is that AGM requires a 3.0 and IM requires a 3.2 (average).

I think adult skaters should accept that their pass levels are below standard track. There is no attempt to hide this by the judges. So why would one expect to be at IM level when one has passed AGM?

Hannahclear, your last comment is correct

For the Intermediate moves, the most accurate word for FOCUS should be 'ATTACK'. From what I've observed, judges will forgive minor bobbles but they will not forgive anything less then total attack and this is exactly where many adults come up just a little short. What feels like 'letting it fly' to an adult, often still looks reserved when compared to a kid skater. Having said that, I have also seen a couple instances where truely substandard kids where passed when compared to adults taking the test in the same flight. I think the lesson there is not neccesarily that they judged the adults wrong, but that they judged the kid very wrong. Sometimes, it appears that there is an unspoken pressure to keep a kid moving in the test system.

Stho, you're sthayin I'm comin up short! Well, you should have stheen yoursthelf flyin around that rink. I'll take good "form" over "attack" any day! Okay, stho I sthkate my IM like figures--sue me

You people are definitely inspirational.

Now, does anyone know where I can go to knock about 40 years off my age, which is about the only chance I stand of ever going beyond bronze!

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Keeping School Figures Alive!!

Again, the variations in standards between adult and standard track for the same moves does vary depending on the judge. There are plenty of judges who just apply the same standards to a move no matter which test they're judging. I've heard judges say outright that "the standard is the standard" and that they judge adults using the same standards as the kids.

I remember when I was working on Pre-Bronze MIF my coach told me that based on what she had seen in judging of adults, the judges would probably apply a Prelim standard and not a Pre-Prelim (b/c of the Prelim moves on the test), even though the test was pass/retry. One judge (who is known to be one of the toughest judges in our area) clearly applied a much higher standard than the other judges (commenting that my circles on the back crossover figure 8's were not of equal size, that my transition on the forward crossovers was too diagonal, and that my outside alt 3's were wide-stepped (only in the transitions from right to left). Yes, this was true, but in reality, not as severe as the comments made it out to be - and if it was supposed to be judged like a Pre-Prelim test, then based on what I've seen happen with judging of Pre-Prelim tests, I'd say those expectations were a bit strict. On the flip side, based on some Prelim MIF tests I've seen recently, I'd say the judging can get pretty lenient with the alt 3's, even applying the 2.5 standard.

Another example: the second time I tested Bronze MIF, the judges were all clearly applying a Pre-Juv standard, or at least not following the adult focus of "continuous flow and strength" - for one, every comment used the term "power" - "Power OK" or "no power after 3's" (power 3's), etc. (Btw, I passed both the forward and back perim stroking that day.)

FWIW, a skater in my area who is working on Intermed MIF after passing Gold MIF told me her coach told her to forget she ever passed those moves - basically start again to get to Intermed standard.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

FWIW, if I tried to write the whole phrase "continuous flow and strength" in a block on a MIF form, I'd either use up most of the space (and time) or it would be unreadable.

I might use the word "power" to get the point across, even when applying the adult primary focus, or I might use the word "flow". It also depends on what I am viewing (how it looks).

For example, even on an adult test, if it looks like there is minimal push on the stroking (on the first 2 elements) and the skater barely maintains consistent speed from start to finish (or start to end of first side, and picks up minimal speed from the end pattern), I would probably comment something like "minimal power generated" rather than "lacked continuous flow and strength". Mostly because to me the comment "minimal power generated" conveys a better "what needs to be worked on" to the coach and skater than "lacks continuous flow and strength"

hope this helps.

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American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

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Thanks for the insight, Jen. My current beef with adult moves testing and judging is that standards can vary widely from one judging panel to the next. I'm sure the judging of kids can also seem inconsistent at times, but I feel that with the adult track it's worse. I've seen (and heard about) tests where the judges were extremely tough and definitely applying kid standard (and a high one at that) and then there are other tests where it seems that much more allowance is made for adults, esp in the area of power and flow.

Here's a question/thought: Has the term "continuous flow and strength" ever actually been defined, and is there a consensus/direction as to how that standard differs from "power"? If not (and I haven't seen anything written), then that could be where a lot of the inconsistency is coming from.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

I think skating judging can be inconsistent at times, from the very lowest levels to Olympic events.

There's no way around that in a subjective sport.

It seems that for ALL of the MIF tests from intermediate and up, ESPECIALLY novice-senior, attack is crucial. At novice and up, presentation starts to matter, too. Not presentation as in skating "pretty" but skating with confidence, head up, shoulders down, etc. By the time a skater tests to senior moves, according to some judges I've spoken to, there should be an air of "eat your heart out" or "take THAT" to the test. Any show of tentativeness or holding back dooms a junior or senior test.

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