Check on that. My understanding is that "different nature" with respect to spins refers to abbreviations in IJS code, even for levels not judged under IJS. I remember there was discussion here at the time that rule was changed and the affect on my program was that I could no longer do both a forward scratch and a back scratch as separate spins b/c they would both be considered uprights (UpSp), one with a backward entrance, but that would not change the basic nature of the spin.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Uh... (speaking as someone who isn't quite bronze yet, so I have no idea) but is it really expected that a bronze skater has enough spins in their repetoire to not need to do both a scratch and a back-scratch as seperate spins? (My other spin being sit. And I can kind of change among the 3.)

Cause if so, uh, crap. (Yeah, I know I'll never win, but I kind of wanted to be able to skate)

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

It's true that those who are naturally flexible have a big advantage in spins and spirals. It is also true that those who are naturally athletic/strong have a big advantage in jumps, so I could make an argument that jumps should be worth less. I actually think spins, spirals and step sequences have the values they have because they take up a lot of time in the program, especially when done with level-raising features.

I think the point is to allow people to gain points doing what they do best. And I can attest to the fact that you do not need to be naturally flexible to get the levels on spirals and spins; you can work on flexibility just like you work on footwork or jumps. You and I are the same age and I did the splits for the first time in my life less than 3 years ago. It took two years of regular, diligent stretching, almost every day. If I spend 3 hours per week for 2 years doing stretches, shouldn't I be rewarded with the same point-earning opportunities as someone who spent that same amount of time working on jumps?

Well, for some skaters, back, knee or hip operations may have made axels an impossibility. So how about we all put our harpoons away?

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

I believe so. But I haven't competed in a couple of years, so that might have changed, or I could be wrong. I don't have a camel spin, either. I could do a forward scratch (UpSp), a sit (SSp), and then a sit-change sit (CSSp) or sit-change sit-back scratch (CCoSp), or (forward) sit-scratch (CoSp). And you don't have to do 3 spins - that's a max not a min, plenty of Bronze skaters do just 2.

If I were to resurrect my last program - which was used during the 3-spin era, then the 2-spin era, and then once after Bronze went back to 3 spins but I just kept it at 2 - I would either do the sit-change sit-back scratch and then forward scratch or, if I was feeling ambitious enough to add the back scratch in at the beginning, I'd do that, then the change-foot combo, and then a sit-forward scratch combo (no change of foot) at the end.

It can be done.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

That's so frustrating. If IJS rules should apply, don't say it's 6.0.

And I know I don't HAVE to do 3 spins, but spinning is the reason I skate. Sure, the fact that I can only do very few spins doesn't make it sound like I'm a good spinner, but man you should see my jumps (my test program has most of my jumps from neat footwork- in an effort to play "hide the jump" and hope they appreciate the attempt at difficulty. Telegraphing them halfway across the ice doesn't get them any higher) I greatly appreciate that 10 seconds, because it means I get to do more footwork.

I guess I need to start working on my back sit (it's not going well) if I want anything interesting to happen with my spins.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

It's not just an IJS rule; I think people call it that because it's easier to explain "spins of a different nature" as "IJS codes." But "spins of a different nature" means the same thing whether it's IJS or 6.0.

You could do either the forward or back scratch as one, which would be an upright spin with no change of foot (USp), and then do a forward-TO-back scratch, which would be an upright spin with change of foot (CUSp). Voila, two spins of a different nature! And then there's also the forward sit that is required to pass the Bronze FS test, so that's three.

This is neither here nor there, but flexibility is much more inherently natural than athleticism. Muscle strength can attained through off-ice workouts, but the degree of one's open hips and bendy back is granted by birth.

*moment of silence for future posters proclaiming how their hips are facing inward but with 23 years of dedicated stretching, they can now do inside spread eagles *

OK, so right now my planned spins are

camel/upright - forward upright in the opposite direction

layback - back sit (which does not sit low enough, it would be an "intermediate position" under IJS)

If I can't get credit for both those CCoSp (which are completely different skills), my choices would be either

put a step between the counterclockwise upright after the camel and the clockwise upright, so they would count as CoSp and USp.

or

Don't even pretend to sit in the backspin of the second combination, just do a funky back upright position, and have that spin count as CUSp.

So glad I'm NOT competing this year. Just too many floating parts going around.

I've had in my last program this...

Spins: sit, backspin, scratch spin
Jumps: sal, loop, lutz-toeloop, flip
Footwork: straight line (and it was just a stumble of a footwork too... )
One spiral (just a plain vanilla one. My old primary coach did not want to put in a catch foot, since it's not already high yet.)

I am actually screwed both in the flexibility and in the jumps! But if I were to say which one I have a better chance at, I would have to say the flexibility for me since I am doing something about it and I have much better flexibility than a few years ago. (Still SUCKY but HEY! Considering that there was a time I couldn't even get hip level spirals...better than nuttin'!!! ) The jumps are better too but I doubt I'll ever get the rotation to do an axel (and my personal trainer has worked me on jump rotations exercises off ice and I can't seem to get the air rotation to do the axel or any double jumps.

I'm with doubletoe: Let's put the harpoons away! There IS a way to calmly discuss this w/o resorting to flaunting the hardware....

Thanks! I needed that one!!!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Yes - and the way it is right now, you are not. You are being rewarded far, far more. A L4 spiral sequence value is only .1 less than a double axel, an element that even a majority of masters level skaters will never have.

Knocking the points down to something more reasonable would level the playing field, IMO. Making a L4 spiral sequence worth the same as a double toe loop or a double loop instead, for example, would do so. Those are both elements that are acheivable by adults who skate under the IJS.

Of course, I would make all spiral sequences worth way less than footwork sequences - across all levels including elite - but that is my own personal bias because I think footwork is both far more difficult and far more impressive than spirals. I've never understood the importance being placed on them by the ISU.

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I think it's a little more acceptable at bronze if you don't *quite* have 3 spins of a different nature. All you need to pass the test is a scratch, a back spin, and a sit spin, so what are you supposed to do if you just have what you need to pass the test?

I worked with one of the bronze skaters on my rink at putting her program together last year. I think what we ended up putting in her program was a back scratch-forward scratch to count as her change of foot (she couldn't do the other way around since she could only do the back scratch from a standstill), a sit spin and a layback (which as not laid back very far). She didn't have a camel spin, so a camel-sit was out. She just barely passed her bronze free because her back spin wasn't strong, there was no way she was going to get a back sit to make another combination. I don't know IJS codes well enough to know if the layback and sit are of a different nature or not.

That's why both of the judges in my area who are involved with my club and regularly judge adults have both told me to always do the step sequence at levels that allow you to choose one or the other. Gorgeous spirals are not hard if you are naturally flexible. Strong step sequences take a lot more work. Given two skaters who are equal other than the fact that one did a spiral sequence with crazy positions and the other did a step sequence that was good for their level, they'll put the person with the step sequence over the person with the spiral sequence. (This obviously is under 6.0, not IJS.)

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Several years ago, before IJS was implemented in adult comp, I'm quite certain that "back" and "forward" versions of the same position (upright, sit, camel) were considered "different" in nature - I'm pretty sure I read that in the rulebook, but I no longer have an older rulebook to check. But when IJS was implemented and the WBP were changed, "different nature" became defined by IJS codes - ex: same position, change of position, change of foot. So forward scratch and back scratch became the same spin due to position, and the entrance/direction became a level feature.

Btw, what happened to the WBP for Pre-Bronze? I looked at the doc on the USFSA website and it stops with Bronze - PB may not be at AN but it is still a competitive adult level in the rulebook and did have WBP a few years ago.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

I agree that the step sequences are more difficult for most people, so I think it was fair that they are now worth more than the equivalent spiral sequence levels. On the other hand, take a look at the IJS scoresheets from the Grand Prix events. There are considerably fewer SpSq4's than 2A's among the best skaters in the world. You'll see fewer at AN this year, too, because they have made it harder.

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

That's my point. Skating evolved and the definition changed, but it's not an IJS-only rule. It's *the* rule. Your OP said, "If IJS rules should apply, don't say it's 6.0," and I was saying it's not "IJS rules," it's also "6.0 rules." Hope that makes sense!

I am not the most flexible person in the world when it comes to being bendy, grabbing my foot, and contorting my body, however, under IJS there are many ways to gain your points in spins without doing those things. For example, I got a L2 on my CCoSp last year WITHOUT pulling a foot up to my head or contorting like a pretzel. It requires diligence in determining WHAT is rewarded to gain levels that may be achievable for you and working on that. FWIW, I am shooting for a L3 this year on the CCoSp and again I am not grabbing or tearing anything nor do I look like a pretzel.

Oh, OK, I see what you're saying. I'm not sure if Skittl meant this, but I too have a beef with that definition change b/c why use IJS terminology to govern 6.0 events? I guess it would be confusing for judges to keep the differences straight between events with diff judging systems, so I understand the rationale for the change, but I still dislike it, but oh well, it is what it is.

__________________
Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Do you think you place better under IJS versus 6.0 because of that? (I've seen you skate but haven't paid a ton of attention to placements all the time and who in gold places where under one system versus the other and I realize other factors, like how you skate on a given day, are involved too). Obviously the spins you are doing aren't easy because they have all kinds of edge changes and they get rewarded if you nail them under IJS, and I think a lot of us less flexible people have been watching and taking notes. But do you think under 6.0 a judge looks at that versus someone who can stick their left toepick in their right ear during a spin and automatically thinks that the person contorting themselves (but staying on the same edge) is doing something harder?

I think with regard to levels still under 6.0, judges overall seem a little inconsistent when it comes to switching back and forth. Judges who judge under both systems have more of an IJS mentality when judging under 6.0, judges who have been around a long time and don't have a ton of experience with IJS (and/or hate it) and stick to old school 6.0-thinking. Has anyone else noticed this? So when you're a skater and have to compete under 6.0 most of the year until ANs, what do you do? Go old school 6.0 thinking and try the double you probably won't land for the sake of trying it and hope for some type of reward for being gutsy, or play it smart as you would under IJS all year? I was coaching synchro when many levels there switched to IJS and coaches were told there that even if a team is under 6.0, treat them as if they were competing IJS with regard to choreography. The same thing went on there, it was really frustrating because there were so many mixed messages from judges (suddenly things that had always been considered "hard" mainly because they looked cool were not worth much under IJS and judges didn't know what to do with those things under 6.0).

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Although I don't compete, this seems to be the attitude that most coaches in our area have for their kids programs. I'm not sure it's still known what makes a good 6.0 program, so they just make a good IJS program- knowing judges are used to looking at features.

It's kind of a like adult tests. In our area no coach has any idea what the adult passing standard is supposed to look like, so they all assume the judges don't have an idea either. If it won't pass standard track, it's not ready to be put out. Then they assume adults are given a tiny bit of leniency. But there is no concrete idea of what is expected.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

This is true. Two of my spins are L2 if I do them correctly and neither involve any contortion.....just a lot of revolutions. My last plain camel spin is only a L1, but if I get + GOE on it, all the better. I might not have the fancier tricks and the L3 spirals, but I'm really aiming to skate a strong, fast, clean program with + GOE on the jumps. It's defintiely about working with what you have an maximizing the advantages you can take.

__________________
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

I see where this comes in at intermediate and above, but don't really think there is a whole lot of difference at the lower levels. My coach treats all programs like IJS programs. I do my own choreography and don't really think IJS v. 6.0, I think about what's comfortable and what maximizes my strengths, and I wanted to make a program that (if I move up next year) will easily transition to a gold program without having to re-choreograph what I already have. (I did the same in '07 when I was bronze but knew I'd be moving up to silver for '08). When my coach went through it, he didn't make any changes, he mainly helped improve a few transitions or connecting steps where I was having trouble coming up with something on my own. Granted my step sequence is NOT an IJS step sequence, it's a sequence I put together that is strong for silver under 6.0, but I can just as easily plug an IJS one in there. But the program is designed to have a spiral sequence as well when I move up to gold and add a chunk of music, and that's what I'd probably have count and the step sequence would just be a transition to boost PCS. And obviously things like COEs on my spins can be added, jumps swapped, but the structure of the program itself won't change.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I don't know, my experience is with very low levels. I'd like to think that if coaches weren't trying to plug in features they see from high level IJS skaters, thinking that's what judges are looking for, they'd be having their kids do really nice long scratch and sit spins that show mastery of the spins rather than attempting 4 different positions in a sit spin, when the kid can barely hold each one for 2 full revolutions.

Or maybe it's the particular coach.

__________________
-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Except under IJS it's really not the job of the judges to reward the features -- it's the job of the technical panel. Some judges are also technical controllers now, but most aren't.

In IJS, the judges just have to worry about the quality of an element instead of also having to keep track of how hard it was as they do under 6.0.

Maybe the kids can't actually hold a position for several revolutions -- the only way they can keep the spin going is to keep changing positions.

Or maybe the coaches just think that the kids need to start working on these skills now so that they will have mastered them by the time they get to juvenile or intermediate. Same as with putting out cheated double jumps in preliminary and prejuvenile. They'd get more points under IJS by doing clean singles, but trying the doubles gives them practice including them in a program so they're used to including them by the time they can actually rotate the jumps.

Could be.

You go, girl! (and Stormy, too!) IJS is designed to reward edge control, strength and balance, not just flexibility. You can actually get the maximum possible value on a spin (Level 4 on a CCoSp) without doing any difficult variations of position! It is also possible to get a level 3 on a spiral sequence without a catch foot, Y/I spiral, split or charlotte position.

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

I meant to answer this part before, but I forgot! It's here:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...BP%20Chart.pdf

If you lose this link in the future, you can go to the main News and Information page for Adults (http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=112) and scroll down to "Summary Sheets For Well-Balanced Programs." It lists Singles (Masters-Bronze), Pairs, Dance and Pre-Bronze.

LOL! I say the same thing about stinking things in my ear all the time!

I think skating equally well gets you equally rewarded, to answer Rachel's question. Not flexible? Do what you do well and strong and it gets rewarded. It is much easier to set a program for your end goal than to change from outing to outing and try to remember WHICH program you are skating this time.

This is one of the things that hurts skaters like Johnny Weir -- they change things around and make more mistakes because it's not ingrained.