Should the Adult Skating Community have a "Worlds" competition?

Should Oberstdorf be considered an Adult Worlds (if not on paper, then in theory?)

Should Oberstdorf be formally Sanctioned as an Adult Worlds?

Or, should Mountain Cup be sanctioned as an Adult Worlds?

Adults Skaters have Sectionals and Nationals, so why not a "World" competition, too?

umm..this is a pretty simple question to answer.

NO!

This competition will not always stay in Obersdorf BTW

Anyhow, back to the question. In order for it to be worlds, you'd have to have qualifying at Nationals. Many countries do not have Nationals. AND people would have to qualify to get to nationals, which doesn't happen (except for a couple of events in the US)

Eventually it MAY become a Worl;d comeptition, but not yet.

No. O'dorf is NOT Adult Worlds.

Should there be an Adult Worlds? Heck yeah. Is it gonna happen anytime soon. Heck no. There can't BE an Adult Worlds until other countries hold genuine Adult Nationals.

I want to see the adult skating community continue its tradition of international OPEN (non-qualifying) competitions, so any skater who wants to can travel & compete internationally. I obviously do NOT want to see these events referred to as Adult Worlds.

Having gone to the event twice, let me say, once again..... NO. It is not adult worlds. It is an excellent event, but there is no qualifying to get to it...hopefully one day when all the countries that send skaters to the event have aligned levels -- have qualifying national events -- of which, the top 3 or 4 skaters from each event (gold/masters) from each country could go and then it might be a "championship" event at the ISU international adult competition. There would still most likely be open events where anyone could enter at their correct level and compete for an OPEN title. (but who knows what they will do with the event)

Currently, you pick your own level, you do not have to qualify to enter, so for that reason it is NOT adult worlds. But for those who go it is an excellent opportunity to meet other skaters from around the world who share a similar passion.

On another note, Mountain Cup is not losing any steam, and it is also another excellent event to attend if you have the chance.

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I'm hoping that this event gets spread around, geographically. Yes, having it in Europe seems to work out well as far as timing/coordination with Mountain Cup (people can make a whole trip out of both) and European skaters are more likely to attend, but I'm hoping that this event gets to North America (either U.S or Canada) at least once. Not everyone has the money to travel that far and I, for one, won't travel to Germany for personal reasons (but I might travel to the UK ).

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In answer to the question: should there be an adult worlds? Yes. Will adult worlds ever have any true equivelency with the regular 'worlds'? No. Is Obersdorf 'worlds'? It may as well be given the level of recognition that it receives from the ISU.

I see two ways of looking at it. If it was a full fledged qualifying event, that might add another layer of legitamacy to the concept of worlds, but take it to it's basic meaning. Worlds is where people from all over the world compete against one another. It's a wider pool of competition. Why should we detract from it otherwise?

What about 'real' worlds. The number of truely consistent competitive nations would fit on one or two hands. These nations have the advantage of a legacy of resources that allowed them to get into that position, A lot of nations will never have that. And yet we don't detract from real -'worlds' just because it represents only a hand full of nations.

In the past development of what is now Obersdorf, it was indeed widely circulated as 'adult-worlds' ...small 'w', but with all ernestness, including people at the heart of our own USFSA. This is enough for me.

I will never do quads, triples and I'll be lucky if I ever pull off double jumps. But I don't diminsh my own participation in our own AN or whatever future international event I may take part in because I can't do advanced jumps. I don't diminish AN because it is non-qualifying. Adults have 2 competitors: The field of people they compete against and their own aging self. What is now Group 5 deserves every bit as much credit or more for being there as does a Group 1 pulling off easy doubles or triples.

So Obersdorf , in it's most basic essense, IS worlds.

The rink - is it the same rink where they had the 2000 Junior Worlds and other Junior Grand Prix competitions?

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Using that definition, so is Mountain Cup.

"Worlds" implies that the "best in the world" or at least the "top skaters from each qualifying country" are present. That is far from being the case at Oberstdorf, which is generally a gathering of those few who have both the time and the money to participate. That's where it differs the most from standard track Worlds, where each country's skating association pays for its top skaters to go, so that they ARE all there and it is a true World Championship event. I realize that this could also be true of Adult Nationals to a lesser extent, since there are bound to be some skaters who can't afford to participate every year. Still, it's a whole different level of expense.

Let's say you won your event at AN, and someone who didn't even make the podium at your AN event went on to win the equivalent event at Oberstdorf with none of the top AN skaters present (including you). Would you feel a little offended if that person went around telling people, "I won Adult Worlds"? I think I would.

Um, no. "Worlds" is short for "World Championship." Always has been; always will be. In the world of athletics, that means that the best in the world (as determined by some kind of screening, whether it's ranking or qualifying events or whatever) are competing for a title. No other World Championship is run as an open event, to my knowledge. Claiming that the ISU Adult event is a world championship is just pretending it's something it's not. Yes, it's international. Yes, it's ISU sanctioned. But it is NOT a World Championship.

Making this statement is not in any way diminishing the importance of adult skating or Adult Nationals or the value of the ISU Open comeptition. But don't pretend it's something it's not, no matter how much you want it to be.

It's a wonderful step, and it's great that the ISU has recognized Adult Skating. Maybe one day we'll get an Adult Worlds, but this ain't it.

oooh girl youre saucy, you tell 'em miss thing

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The ISU World Championships you watch today began humbly 1882 as an international competition held in Vienna. There were only a handful of competitors(men only) who skated figures and the winner was Leopold Frey of Austria. Second was Edward Engelmann also from Austria and Axel Paulson from Norway was third.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Or should I say perhaps one stoke of the blade....

Not at all. Even in the elite ranks some people win their nationals and come in low in the Worlds, while other team mates make the podium. That's just the nature of competition--you win some and you loose some.

Basically, because Adult Skaters don't receive the same attention that elite skaters do, for a variety of understandable reasons, what we are left with is the freedom to create our own "context." In other words, an Adult Worlds, doesn't necessarily have to exactly mirror the "real worlds" in that it has to be qualifying. If Oberstdorf is considered the most important stage where Adult Skaters around the world come to compete against one another, then it's the Worlds. Since the USFSA and ISU has very little stake in assigning meaning for Adult Skaters then we have to do it for ourselves--what luxury and freedom. This is why I think that when this event was being born everyone was referring to it as the "Adult Worlds" at the 2004 AN at Lake Placid. There was a lot of excitement about assigning this definition to it, and the possibility that we can compete on a world stage with some importance assigned to it. Again, the talk was so much about this being a modified version of the real Worlds for Adults that there was also much talk about whether, or not the Mountain Cup competition would continue.

I'm so glad you wrote this as I was just thinking about that myself -- like, how did Worlds start? Were there any qualifying competitions or did each country that wanted to participate just send some skaters -- or perhaps the skaters just went of their own volition -- we might never know, but it is something to ponder.

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Yes, it's the same rink. That's also where they have the yearly Nebelhorn Trophy.

If you can ever afford it, Debbie, do come to the Mountain Cup, which is in France, not Germany. And is a wonderful competition, as I'm sure many of the folk on here will tell you.

Actually, going back to Oberstdorf for a minute, for me, as a dancer, there are restrictions. I could skate up - but honestly, I'm not good enough to do a competitive 14-step and Foxtrot, and because these are the lowest-level ISU dances, I don't have a choice! Which is basically why I have yet to skate there, and don't see myself doing so in the immediate future.

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Well looking at it strictly, it is still so that "each country just sends some skaters", since each federation has the right to send at least one skater to the World Championships, and the person they chose is not always the national champion (see the whole story about Miryam Manzano not being sent to the Olympics in spite of her Australian title).

In the end, it's all a matter of numbers: when the numbers are small, qualifying events don't make sense, while when numbers are large, you have to make some sort of selection. I guess that the day 150 skaters sign up for Bronze II at Oberstdorf, then they will introduce qualifying competitions in each country. Till then, it will stay an open competition (for now, in several categories there are not enough competitors to fill the podium!).

On a side note: the Swiss Championships are more or less an open competition: anybody that has passed their senior free test can sign up, and most years there are not enough of them to make any type of qualification round (this year there were 9 men and 16 ladies competing). So, if you are, say, a 50 years old male masters skater that just barely passed his senior free test, then next season nobody can prevent you from competing against Lambiel at Nationals.

Debbie, you would really like Mountain Cup. I wanted to do one international event this season, and left it up to Rob, as he's been to both locations. We picked MC because it's a small village and preferred that over a large city, and it was an excellent choice.
Unless Oberstdorf (or wherever it may be) gets officially declared the international adult championships, I'll see it as another adult event, no more or less important to it's competitors, just different. For AN, the location is less important as far as going or not, as I've always gone, but for an international event, it's a vacation as well.

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I have no issue with winning nationals and then coming in lower at Worlds, because in that scenario, the skaters are still all THERE and have a chance to compete against each other for the title. All is fair if the top skaters are all there (with the exception of one or two out due to injury, which happens at Worlds, too). But at Oberstdorf, maybe 10% of the top U.S. adult skaters are present, which is why it would be a misrepresentation to imply that the winner of an event at that competition has earned an "Adult World Champion" title.

All these international comps are lots of fun, and the camaraderie is unbeatable.

But I think it is worth noting that Mountain Cup is, in effect, a USFSA competition that is held in France. Oberstdorf is an ISU competition.

I asked if the ISU competition was going to be held in O'dorf next year; I was told that it might not. Also, some valuable info was discussed at the Sat. banquet. I can't seem to remember it all thanks to the Jello shots provided by the Canadian contingent! The technical specialist explained the features of a spin and how a lot of the spins were not called as expected. (For example, a lot of adults did the change of edge, but it was not counted, either because it was not enough on the changed edge or because the caller was looking for more than the 2 revs required by the ISU protocol. Here, I think you needed to do 3 or 4, depending on your level.)

Flo, I downloaded your pairs program--can't wait to watch it later!

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I have no problem with the arguement that it is NOT Worlds since it's not as though people qualified to get there.

However, when you have a draw party and Cinquata himself is hanging medals around your neck, I can see some people want to refer to it as Worlds.

I don't see why it gets people angry or irritated to call it Worlds. But that's just me.

This is inaccurate. Rhea Schwartz was very clear when it was announced that it would not be a "Worlds." The big deal about O'Dorf was that it would be the first ISU-sanctioned all-adult competition, but not "Adult Worlds."

People can call it whatever they want. But in the world of skating, "Worlds" has one meaning and "International" has another. O'Dorf falls under the "International" category. Feel free to call it Worlds, but when you do, realize you might be confusing those who don't know any better. IMO, as adult skaters, we definitely should be spreading the word, but we should spread it accurately and not like the telephone game.

[/soapbox]

Exactly. Calling the Oberstdorf International Adult Competition "Adult Worlds" is the same as calling an ISU-sanctioned international competition like the Nebelhorn Trophy or Skate Israel "Worlds".

So, anyway, do you think the Adult Skating community should have a "Worlds?"