Judging in figure skating awards you for what you do and do WELL. This is true under IJS--a really crappy double flip (if it even has enough rotation to not get downgraded to a single) will get you negative GOEs whereas a nice single will work in your favor and earn you positive GOEs. So unless the jump is good, it's usually not worth doing it.

Some argue that 6.0 gives you credit for what you try, but I think some of the IJS mentality is trickling down. I'll use silver for an example--a lot of people attempt axels in their program when it's clear by watching their technique (both on warm-up and in the program) they clearly do not have a consistent axel. (You can tell when someone has a handle on the jump and is just having a bad day versus someone who does not have the jump and is just flinging themselves in the air with bad technique). Skaters who don't attempt axels because they know they won't land them but skate a clean, strong program will almost always win over someone who throws away a jump on an axel they will never land, or one that is landed but is severely cheated. Two local judges here regularly judge adults and I've spoken with them numerous times on what they want to see or not see at various levels, and they have both told me that they don't want to see jumps that a person has no shot at doing well over jumps they can do. They're also in favor of strong step sequences over spiral sequences in 6.0 where there is an option (a spiral sequence for someone with flexibility is easy, but good step sequences are a better indicator of skating ability and edge control).

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

And they are available as free pdfs on the website now.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Actually, I do know quite a bit about it and have actually had a book. (Believe it or not.) Re-read the post above. I knew it was allowed only in masters level and wrote it that way. It was (deliberately) taken in another sense to attack me. (Since it could be misread, if someone wanted to use it in that sense.) Re-read it and you will see what I mean.

In the future I will be more careful.

I don't think there's any jump restrictions at the masters level. If Larry Holiday can do a couple triples under masters, I think the double flip would be allowed.

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Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

That's why a spread eagle has no point value in the technical score. Neither does stroking. Jumps, on the other hand, do. BTW, it appears that you are just out to prove that the system is messed up rather than trying to understand why it is the way it is. I gave you some pretty good reasons why higher level MIF are allowed and you appear to have ignored those explanations completely.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

As I mentioned, I know this. What I wrote was (deliberately?) taken out of context. (Since it could be misinterpreted.) Obviously, I know this. Read my other posts where I mentioned I would not be able to use my jumps UNTIL masters level. (I have 2flip). Must be careful on this board. Not liked. Will have to be much more careful and precise with my words.

Not in jr/sr but now that int/novice is its own level, you can't do more than a 2loop there.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Damn! I'm late to the entire thread!!

In IJS you have depending on the level, lets use gold as the example 6 jumps, 3 spins and 1 footwork or spiral sequence. Since jumps are capped and only 2/1 or 1/2 combo is allowed the highest jump combo would be lutz/2toe, and a good seq (x.8) axel-toe tap-2toe or axel-1/2 loop-2sow. So there is a pretty tight limit on the six jumps but if you get GOE of 0-+1,+2 you can add a lot to your score on those limited jumps, but...ohhhh me, ohhhh my that means you have to have good jumps with difficult entires (rocker, counters, brackets) into the jumps and a solid flowing outside edge out preferably into one of those nasty move things...again!

A few skaters do get the L4 on the spiral and, oh yes Daisies did manage a L2 or was it an L3 at AN's, but that is in combination with doing jumps that can be done well. If you do a telegraped 2 loop with a scatchy, hail marry landing its gonna be a negative and since the jump is only worth 1.5, you might end up with a 1.2 if your lucky. Its all in the balance of your program, if you want to do a jump filled program do it!! When you lose 30% of the technical score in negative GOE don't start another thread about how you were persecuted and "embarassed" about it.

I find it horrifying that I can't bowl as well as I should, why doesn't everything come naturally to me? What is this concept of learning to do something better through practice and hard work? I play chop sticks beautifully on the piano, why can't I play Chopin as well, would I have to practice!! NO WAY!!

You mean I should have just been able to walk into the nuclear plant and know how to run it? I shouldn't have gone to years of school to become a nuclear engineer? When did this entire, learning thing come into play? I am so upset, I must go join the NBA and tell them that I am TALL so therefore I am a basket ball prodigy!!

WWooooooo HOOOOOOooo Chauncey!! I want to play for the Nuggets!!!


xxoo Leslie

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Who me? Couldn't be....
http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r

Yes, we are all deliberately out to take your comments out of context and to personally attack you.

Many people in this thread (doubletoe, rachelskater, Kristin, Mel on Ice, stormy, and more) and on other forums and discussion groups have tried to explain the system and its basis in history and rationale to you. You keep going on and on making the same statement over and over again without providing any new logic to support your claim. You claim to be doing this for fun, may want to compete, but don't want to "eat your vegetables" so to speak. MITF don't require that much work to become proficient if you really work at them, even if it isn't your natural strength.
I think I speak for 99% of people involved in the figure skating world that they would rather see a program that is well SKATED with slightly less difficult elements than someone who throws crap at the wall to see if anything would stick. This was the point rachelskater was making about what the judges in her area told her. This is seen over and over again when certain skaters finish in the bottom of their group because the jumps in their program aren't clean and look like fling and pray behind people who on paper have less content.

um....Point is that skating is a hobby, and therefore should be enjoyable. (That is why I pay money to do it.)

Work is something different. Not necessarily enjoyable....unfortunately. (That's why they pay me money to do it.)

OK. Guess (almost) everyone is ok with the fact that all MITF and "connecting moves" (spread eagles, bauers, hydroplanes etc) can be used at all levels and spins at most levels. (Yes, exceptions at the lowest levels on spins. For example, no flying spins at lowest levels.) But....Restrictions on jumps are right and good. OK. Fine. This is YOUR sport. (Collective you.) Just found it a bit unfair. In my opinion, it seemed to favor certain skaters over others, but as many of you mentioned, as I don't compete, this is really not my concern.

btw...Re-read my post. Yes, I was correct about the level. The other posters (deliberately?) misinterpreted what I wrote. Have learned important lesson to be much more careful with wording in the future.

Yes, I did get an L3 step sequence at AN 2008. So did Amy Entwistle. I'm not positive, but I don't think any U.S. adult has gotten L3 on steps since; the rules were tightened up after that. Even elite skaters are having trouble now achieving L4 spirals and L3 steps -- and high-level spins, for that matter. It's not as easy to get points for these elements as Pandora would like to make it seem. Yes, Pandora, we know that your point is at least you can attempt those elements, whereas jumps are limited. We get it. No one is taking your words out of context. Everyone is telling you the reasons for it.

Then you really don't have the mindset of most figure skates, at least the ones I know (Adults and Standard track alike, many of them highly successful competitors across the board from basic skills to Champ events at ANs to kids going to JNs and Big Nationals). Most of the skaters I know work on things they don't necessarily enjoy about figure skating so they can improve overall. Most are goal oriented and want to achieve specific things and they want it to be beautiful when they do.
Yes, I hate MIF like no tomorrow. BUT I see benefit in working on them in my skating. Those benefits (improved placements in competition, better and stronger elements, higher levels on spins/spirals/steps) FAR FAR outweigh any dislike for those MIF because I LOVE progress and improvement far more. I love the fact that I was wiping off my skates a couple weeks ago after a lesson with my male coach on a crowded afternoon session and a parent came up to me, who I didn't know, and said "Oh my God! You are a lovely skater. I have watched you and M work for the last 2 months and your improvement is just amazing! You are starting to draw my attention, even when you guys are just skating around. Don't tell my kid I said that!" THIS made every fall on a quick rocker-choctaw, every bobble working on the alternating pivots, and the huge bruise on my hip bone from the inner-inner three turn end pattern splat when we were changing some body positions to increase quickness and power worthwhile.

Mea culpa on the higher than L2 steps, daisies, I only looked at 09 protocols when I made that statement. Sorry, I did see that program and at the time it was rightfully a L3.

Well....If you are all honestly happy with using the MITF to improve your skating skills then......that's fine. Glad that your hard work was recognized.

But do you really believe that it is impossible to impove freestyle without working things like moves? Just don't buy that. Yes, for competition, I see the point. But just to progress on something like jumps? Must have high level moves to get 2axel??!! Don't buy it. Other things more important. Body weight. Strength. Ability to block out fear of falling. Balanced rotation. All more important. But....Will attempt and let you know.

To do a NICE 2A, yes, I believe that. To do a crappy attempt with a wrap and a likely downgrade, have at it.

No.

Need great core strength, timing, edge control and posture to get 2axel?
Yes. All of which, MIF gives you.

Will take 2axel with wrap....Any 2axel is fine with me. Since I don't compete, "downgrade" is moot point.

Yes, I agree. But don't need to use MITF to learn those qualities. Can learn them from doing the jump itself. (More falls but then, I kind of like to fall....which makes me odd....Must be the bubblewrap. Pop. pop.)

Downgrade is NOT a moot point because if you tell people you have a 2A and it's cheated, then you really don't.

Do you consider wrap a cheat? How so? Jump is fully rotated. "Bad" air position (by ice standards), but fully rotated. Difference is rotating from shoulders down (makes wrap) vs rotating from hips up (makes "correct" position with feet crossed at ankles.) But not a cheat. Just negative GOE.

Note: I am discussing jumps in general. Not my jump. My 2axel is short 1/2 rotation. I now that and I'm working on that now.

Pandora,

The basis of your argument is that MIF ability gives a skater the same degree of advantage/handicap as jumping ability. At this point, it is clear that this is not something we can all agree on by discussing it ad infinitum.

To put an end to this debate that seems to be going nowhere, let's stop talking and give you an opportunity to prove your point. Here's the challenge:

- You agree to spend 1 hour per week doing nothing but working diligently on Adult Gold MIF. Another skater from this board who considers him/herself a "poor jumper" will agree to spend an hour per week doing nothing but working diligently on double jumps.

- The two of you agree on the same amount of time per week/month with a qualified coach.

- In two years, you will attempt all of the Gold MIF elements and the other skater will attempt a double jump. If you can do all of the Gold MIF elements, you win. If she lands a double jump, she wins (or he).

- The winner gets a round trip ticket to Adult Nationals 2012, paid for by the participants on this board.

- If you accept this challenge, you will not bring up this subject again on this board until the contest is over. If you do not accept, you will not bring up this subject again on this board.

Well?

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

If it's your upper body that's fully rotated and your feet aren't rotated to at least 90 degrees of fully backwards, IT IS CHEATED.

Yes, I do understand what you mean by cheat. I wrap my doubles but they are not cheated. Erin Pearl did clean triples with a very high wrap. Not cheated. Nakano does clean triple flip and lutz with a high wrap. Again, not cheated. All negative GOE's under ice system of scoring, though. I was confused because I thought you implied that wraped jumps are automatically cheated (because of the wrap.) Not true. But yes, if the foot doesn't make it around, then the jumps are cheated.

doubletoe,
Thanks for the invite, but since I barely have enough $ to pay for gas to get to the rink, (much less a coach), I'll have to pass.

Not sure what you want me to stop discussing. Thread has turned to cheating jumps and wrap. (Nothing to do with original "dead horse" of wanting to compete without taking MITF tests.) Can agree not to bring this up again. But do you want me to stop commenting on anything to do with freestyle entirely? Sorry. Not taking you up on this.

Fine, then you and the other participant can agree on no additional coaching, just working on your own on each of your challenges.

I am only referring to the topic of MIF and your perceived unfairness in regards to the MIF requirements and/or limitations.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Nope. Would make skating a chore for me and I have too many chores already. But can see your point of not wanting to hear it any longer. Will try to refrain from bring up/commenting on topics that specifially relate to MITF again.