UGH> We had a seriously bad competition today. It was awful. They set up so many kids for complete failure and humiliation.

If these kids wanted complete humiliation for not being "great" they could skate USFS. And I dont mean that in a bad way because I like USFS. But for this particular skating competition with ISI. THey were pairing kids in the same group as kids twice their age.

For I.E. A 4 year old competiting against a 9 year old. And a 7 year old against a 13 year old. Its just not right. I can see maybe a two year age gap. But why would they want to torture these poor kids who have no chance!

How many skaters were in the group? Maybe they had no choice but to do it that way? I don't skate ISI, but at the USFSA competitions I've done, if skaters are grouped together with that big of an age span, it's either because there were very few skaters and they couldn't divide into different groups, or there was one skater a lot older or younger than the others and they had to put them somewhere.

Anyway, age isn't always a factor. I've been skated circles around by many an 8-year-old (although I don't compete against them!). And I've seen many awkward older beginners. I can't tell from your post who you think had the advantage - the older skater or the younger one. If they skate the same, the older skater will probably have an advantage, as they are stronger. But there's no reason to assume automatically that the younger skater isn't better.

Finally, in my opinion, there's no "failure and humiliation" involved in losing, no matter who who your competitors are. You try to skate the best you can. So do they. The judges place you. If you come last, it doesn't necessarily mean you were terrible, just that the others skated better that day. What's so humiliating about that? Skaters need to be taught to go into competitions with personal goals - that way, each experience can be successful regardless of placement. If it's all about winning, they're not going to have much fun with this sport.

I'm so sorry the competition didn't go well. But I don't think age sets kids up for failure at all- as long as those kids were in the same level.

At our local competition I did a stroking event against a 9 year old (freestyle 3), and a 5 year old (currently freestyle 1- but started out in the tots classes I teach a year earlier). The level was "low freestyle". I placed 2nd to the 9 year old, the 5 year old was THRILLED with her 3rd place, because the event was hard- they had us skate for so long she told her mom she though she'd have to quit, but she did the whole thing, and with the big girls. There was a "basic" group of two other 5 year olds who were both alpha level. Even though they were her age, and she would have won, she didn't belong there.

My compulsory event I skated against a 13 year old. Honestly, I should have beaten her, but I had a really bad element. She won.

For the freeskate, they did seperate me into "adult", but the Freeskate 3 was a 13 year old, 2 9 year olds, and a 7 year old. The placements were 9 yrs, 7 yrs, 13 yrs, 9 yrs. Age isn't everything.

I'm guessing something else must have been going on if you're calling this "complete humiliation". What else happened at this event? Were the coaches/parents rude? Were adults/other kids unsupportive?

Placing last isn't failure, and I'm really sad that you think that. Unless the groups were huge- they probably had no choice but to combine age groups. Otherwise every skater would be against the book.

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-Jessi
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Yes there were a number of other factors making this competitiona complete failure. Those I would rather not list as then people would know who i am if they read on her

And I agree loosing isnt everything. But to my very young child it was when she was forced to go out there and loose every event. She cried all night about what a horrible skater she was. And it didnt matter how many times I told her other wise or explained she wasnt as strong as the older kids. It doesnt matter to a young child. She still feels horrible.

And I am not really sure what is so wrong if there are multiple times a skater just skates against the book. Specially with ISI. Isnt that part of their whole philosophy. So kids can skate for fun and feel good about themselves. Otherwise they would just all skate together at the same level. No matter what their age.

I just know it was so bad I hope it doesnt crush my daughter permanently and keep from not skating or competing again.

While it is disappointing to not do as well, it is a learning experience...I know that it is hard for very young children to handle this, but it is a part of life...I could get into a commentary about the college students I work, and the generation of kids coming up (if you watch the news at all, you have probably heard about the Millennial Generation) with who have never "failed" at anything because of some of what you are talking about and how they literally fall apart when they get their first "C" on a paper...rather than work harder or go to talk with the professor BEFORE, they complain that the professor was not fair or they DESERVE an "A" or have their parents call who say that they are not paying tuition for "Cs"....

...what really matters is how kids use the experience of not doing as well as hoped...hopefully, you can get your daughter to a place where she can understand that it's okay as long as she skated her own personal best and maybe she will take the motivation to work harder to get as strong as they older kids who were in her group...

If nothing else, give it a few days...don't go skating, let her relax, having fun and enjoy playing outside and doing things that are not skating...you will probably find that she will want to get back to the rink...

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Skating Dreams

"All your life you are told the things you cannot do. All your life they will say you're not good enough or strong enough or talented enough; they will say you're the wrong height or the wrong weight or the wrong type to play this or be this or achieve this. THEY WILL TELL YOU NO, a thousand times no, until all the no's become meaningless. All your life they will tell you no, quite firmly and very quickly. AND YOU WILL TELL THEM YES." --Nike

You know its amazing. How one minute people can be like. Oh 4 years old is still a baby they are just a toddler.

Then in the next thread. They need to suck it up and learn from the experience. And i am not speaking to anyone in particular because its never been the same posters.

But its just funny how you get so many reactions. But when its come to competition from people at the rink and some on message boards. Almost everyone has been like, she needs to not cry and be upset, she needs to work harder ect ect. Yet you then get criticized for thinking that a 4 year old should be working even has hard as she/he does.

I know now I am rambling. But making a 3 or 4 year old even understand anything is about impossible to an extent. But maybe I am just naive.

And honestly I am really just asking not upset or mad. But really if my dd didnt skate her own personal best. So then what do you say to her. You could have won if you skated your personal best. Or even at your personal best it wouldnt have been good enough.

As well I cant imagine telling a young child you didnt do as well as you could have you could have done better. That seems way harsh and just wrong. lol.

Really though, just curious what you would do as a parent or coach (this is a question not to the quoted poster. How do you handle such a situation. Now if the kid was 10 I could see reasoning with them. And being, hey you didnt work as hard as I have seen in the past. But we are talking about a preschooler who is hard on themselves and devistated.

I'm sorry your four year old is upset, but if she was skating against kids on her level "delta to delta" etc, and not in mixed level groups, then I don't see it as setting her up for humiliation and failure.

I don't think most children should be against the book. Even though ISI has a standard at which the book doesn't award first place, most kids see it as a "pity" first- they "know" they didn't compete and win it. For most kids a first against the book doesn't hold any value other than "I went and skated my best"- which you are saying that she isn't proud of herself for skating her best, she's already upset. Maybe at 4 she wouldn't make the connection there is no competition, but at 5 I've seen it.

Even ISI, where it is supposed to be fun, is a competition. ISI's philosophy is that everyone is a winner, not that everyone gets first place, ISI wants everyone to have a rewarding experience- which is why flights are kept small, so everyone gets some sort of medal- ISI doesn't consider third, fourth or fifth to be a "loser".

If you don't want a placement- then you need to skate in a show, not a competition. If your daughter is this hard on herself about it, maybe she isn't ready for competition yet? (As for your question, of what does one say when a child places badly and didn't do their best, you tell them, it's okay that you messed up X. I know that's very hard for you. But I'm proud of you for trying, and maybe next time you'll do better. If a child can't understand that then, I think they aren't ready for competition.)

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

The other thing you tell your child is what my parents always said to me when I was younger - you did your best at that moment when you went out to skate your program. Maybe it wasn't what you wanted, but I am proud of you for trying and for going out there and no matter what, I still love you. It always did the trick for me!

This is quite gracefully said, i love it.

Its hard with kids. You just dont know what to say sometimes at that exact moment.

Its not her first competition and she has never had a problem before.

I'm not understanding the USFS part to the OP's post. Was it an ISI competition or a USFS Basic Skills one? If it was a USFS competition, but not a Basic Skills one, then yes, all ages are clumped together for the most part, unless it has Open levels, or a ton of skaters. If it was a small Basic Skills competition (like one just for club members) then there could be a large age range as well, but you'd know most, if not all of the skaters, and would know pretty much how you'd make out before you even skated. Larger Basic Skills competitions should have a 2-3 year range in age grouping, so 4 year olds and 6 year olds may be in the same group.

My younger daughter's dance instructor will not let kids compete until they are 7-8 years old for this very reason - at dance competitions you are either judged overall in a 3-12 year old range (with 10-12 year olds winning most categories) and then a 13-17 year old range. To be 4 years old means you'll probably sit on that stage during awards for 5-6 years without having a chance to win a category. The kids all get medals, pins, or ribbons, but the trophies and $$$ are for categories.

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The way our ISI competitions work is they group them by level but they keep it to 5 kids per group, so if there's more than 5 they will group by age as well. But the point being that everyone gets a trophy or medal. If anything, ISI gets criticized for rewarding everyone! Getting out there and learning a routine, practicing it over and over, is a great achievement for a 4-year-old and it's why I like ISI for the younger ages because it acknowledges that work no matter what.

My daughter is 8 and is old enough to have a better attitude about it, but I do know what you're saying. I think you have to look at what you and her coach are saying to her about competitions - is it, "Go out there and win!" or is it "Go out there and do your best!" If she is emotionally devastated and humiliated, take a break from competing until she you feel her self-esteem can handle it.

Maybe have her participate in rink shows instead of competitions for a couple of years and try to find the fun in skating instead of being put in a pressure-cooker situation as a preschooler. Kids are like adults in that they react to stress in different ways. Me personally, the thought of performing by myself on the ice is terrifying, but my daughter gets excited on competition day and has always been that way.

I have thought about not even posting, as I know you will not like my answer.
First, skating with the book is HARDER than skating with someone.You must have 80 percent to place first.I have seen lots of skaters come in second or even third with the book.
Second, maybe your child just isnt ready to compete if she cried all night about placing last.Yes. my kids have always always always been with older kids. Since age 4, always.They have placed first, last and in between.My daughter once did 8 ISI events and was last in every single event but stroking.She was 4 at the time.She said she did her best., and she never shead one tear. She had fun.I was upset, and swore I would never do ISI again.That was almost 5 years ago, and both my kids are still with older kids.And we still do ISI.We live in a small state and cannt have every skater alone, its called a comp for a reason
Maybe it the way we appoached it, or maybe its just them. I dont know to be honest.My son, age 7 was just with a 17 year old in comp moves program.I went though the whole thing, you know she is older, has better extention ect.He placed first.
You will find this alot, you will find sandbaggers, you will find skaters that have lessons daily while your skater has two a week. Its just a part of skating. I am proud of how my skaters act, and how they can lose with grace. I hope its a lesson they carry with them thoughout their lives.

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You dont need to win, maybe that is the issue. You always need to do your best. You can no control over the other skaters.

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With the itty-bittys: we throw a party after every competition, regardless of placement. The kids celebrate some part of the competition: whether it was the best attempt ever at a certain jump, the first time something was ever landed, or just going out there and do it. It involves a cake, a lot of cheering, and lots of demonstration of how incredibly proud we are of them for taking the chance. Hugs, high-fives, and maybe something radical like a super-treat of watching a cartoon on the video. Maybe another rhinestone on the dress to mark "another competition" done.

It helps, and, funnily enough, it still helps in the pre and early teen stage when those same last place finishes still sting a bit.

How fun and sweet. And wow how do you guys have the energy after a comp lol.. The rihnestones is a cute idea! I might start doing that on her bag as rewards for accomplishments! How fun! nothing better then bling!

The rhinestone thing is a cute idea. My daughter and I always celebrated a competition by getting chocolate milkshakes on the way home, regardless of how she had placed. Worked all the way through, from her first Pre-Preliminary competitions at age 6 to her last Senior competition at age 18. There's always something worth celebrating!

And ... to put another spin on the age gap thing: due to a serious injury, my eldest DD was always the "old" kid in the flight (delay in her skating progession). Plus, she looks far older than her age; at 10, she looked 16.

We had parents booing and hissing and cursing us, and her, for how 'unfair' it was to have her skating against little kids. And she was regularly placed below kids far younger who had two legs that actually worked - which was very hard for her.

So. There's always a story, isn't there? But, I'll tell you: she's the toughest, most resilient and professional teenager I know, in part because she learned a number of lessons about what 'losing' was and what 'winning' was, and who the real competitior is in every flight (yourself).

Now, your little one will get there on that understanding ... it just takes time.

For future competitions, you may be able to make it less about the competition against others and more about the competition against yourself...maybe setting small goals such as landing all of the jumps or not looking at her feet or even just remembering the entire program...whatever some of her "things" are....

While I was older when I started competing, and I never really liked competing, and came in last the majority of times I did compete, I always tried to do better than I did the time before...for example, there was something about my lutz jump everytime I competed where I couldn't land it...so, my goal was to land my lutz in competition...and lo and behold I did and I came off the ice yelling, "I did it, I did it! ....how embarrassing is that on the video!) and while I ended up getting first in that competition, that didn't mean as much as landing that jump and proving it to myself that I could do it...

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Skating Dreams

"All your life you are told the things you cannot do. All your life they will say you're not good enough or strong enough or talented enough; they will say you're the wrong height or the wrong weight or the wrong type to play this or be this or achieve this. THEY WILL TELL YOU NO, a thousand times no, until all the no's become meaningless. All your life they will tell you no, quite firmly and very quickly. AND YOU WILL TELL THEM YES." --Nike

I think there is something seriously wrong somewhere along the way if a 4 year old thinks she is a failure and feels humiliated by her participation in a competition. I'm guessing that it was not just "failing", but that there was more going on. I don't think the average 4 yr old feels that she has failed and been humiliated by not winning or even by finishing last. Someone or ones must be shouting that message loud and clear. I'm not saying it's you at all; it could be the general atmosphere at the competition, it could be the club, it could be other skaters or even one in particular.

At our (USFS) Basic Skills competition, all kids competing in the tots levels get "gold" medals, and at our last comp, all the medals were the same. Maybe you could choose the competitions your daughter participates in more carefully, now that you know she could be affected so adversely.

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My son will be 15 next week. He and his coach have been concentrating on moves this year so it doesn't look like he'll be doing much competing (since the new program is just starting to come together). Last year he was in three competitions, in flights of 3, 2, and 2 respectively. (We need more boys...) While he's making good progress on his skating, the fact remains that he never put on a pair of skates until he was over ten, so he was older and larger than the other boys in all three competitions--and was seriously outmatched in the first and last competitions, with the one in the middle being his turn for the mismatch to go the other way against a smaller boy skating up a level. So, as has been said, you shouldn't assume that the mismatches always go to the older ones.

Rob

From an organizational perspective (having just planned and run a skating competition this past weekend), there is a fine line in grouping skaters to provide equity for the skaters and also make efficient use of the ice time and the judges' time. And both ice time and judges' time can be very expensive.

For my competition, we have alot of test level events which are further broken into age groups. if there is only 1 skater entered in one of the age group events in, say, Pre-Gold Dance, we will combine that skater's age group with an adjourning age group. We also try to avoid having events with only 2 competitors, whenever possible. That's another instance in which we will look at combining age groups within a single test level.

My event was a 2 full day competition. My largest expense (almost 70-75% of my total budget) was judges' expenses. My 2nd largest expense was for ice rental, followed by judges/coaches hospitality. The remaining expenses were miniscule compared to those.

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There's no ISI in my area, but IIRC ... Isn't ISI the system where you compete against the book and you can come second or third against nothing? How would you explain that one to a little kid? "Sorry honey, you're not up to standard!" Yikes.

From my experience judging and competing, unless elements were missed, or something huge happened like the kid ran into the wall multiple times, it was highly unlikely a kid would come in lower than first. For adults the more experienced judges told me to score the element as if they had competition- as adults were more critical of their placement, but for kids it was pretty much given to them. I don't know if that's what all ISI competitions do, or just the view of the 5 judges I worked with.

I do know that our synchro short program was announced as recieving not only 1st against the book but "perfect scores"- and since I turn the wrong way on one mohawk, don't do a back lunge, and don't jump on my half flip (and that's just my mistakes- not everyone elses, or team things like the traveling circle not moving) either the judges were blind, or else the "against the book" thing is an automatic first.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

Just like life, skating isn't always fair.

I had to compete against the book for FS 1 before, and came in 2nd place. I didn't even have any mistakes, so I never understood why I got 2nd place. The only thing my coach could think of was maybe I didn't skate with enough speed.

At that same competition, I competed against a 9 year old (and I was 21 at the time) in FS 1. Her half flip was pretty much a split jump. She was way beyond what most FS 1 skaters skate like. She easily beat me.

At a competition the following year, I was FS 3 and for artistic, they placed me against a FS 5 14 year old skater. The rules stated that as a FS 3 skater, I couldn't do anything above my level, but as a FS 5 skater she was allowed to do elements from a higher level. Once again I completely lost that event, and left with a bad feeling as I didn't think we were even close to being on level playing field as we had different sets of rules. That was my last ISI competition.

I finally got old enough to start taking the USFSA tests, because at that time you had to be 25. I managed to pass up through bronze, and then the following day of the tests fractured my shoulder in two places and gave up skating.