Okay, you guys who are in the Pre-Bronze Peanut Gallery!!!! Here's my take on things:

PASSING AVG: 2.5

Forward perimeter crossovers: I got a 2.3 from one judge and a 2.7 from a second judge! Don't remember what the third judge thought of it...but I think it was borderline passing. I did remember that the comment was pretty much "Good power, skated on flats though..." One other judge did comment that I was "walking" on my crossovers. She wants progressives (as in "cross under"), NOT crossovers (as in... well, crossovers!!!)

Back perimeter crossovers: The toe pick monster got me on this one... again, I had a "skated on flats" comment. (As you can see, this is a reoccuring theme for me.) But this time there were no comments on flow and speed... (Last time I took it I was marked for being SLOW too!!!) I think you would need to do back progressives to pass this test. BEND your knees!!!

Forward Power 3's: This is where I did get comments for power and for toe picks. One judge commented on my being out of control on the transition to RFO from back crossovers on the end pattern... (Yeah! I was a bit wild there...) Same judge also said that the 3's were SWINGY... And yes, the toe pick monster and flat edge monster got me here too... (God! I hate HATE HATE this move!!!) Another move that you have to BEND your knees on is this one b/c of the power thing...

Back crossover to BO edge: No comments on extensions. They commented again on the flat edge here too. (I REALLY need to work on back crossovers!!!! YIKES!!! ) BEND your knees!!! It does help you on the "continuous flow and strength" part of the moves...

5 step mohawk: Step on flat (probably that 3rd to 4th edge is bad...) FI mohawk "hoppy". No comment on extensions though. I guess I did okay on that. Don't know what happened to me on that one... Probably I was quite tired and exhausted by the time I did this move.

I also don't remember which move, but I got a "good posture" remark from one of the judges on one of the moves... (Which I find funny since that's one of my WORST attributes in skating...)

General comments:

Overall I think most of the low scores were not below 2.3. (I think one of my moves on the really tough judge was like 2.2. She essentially gave me scores more closer to "I didn't improve from last year...") The one judge that DID judge me last year gave me much better scores overall this year. Some were 2.4's. The judge that passed me had me at 2.5's on some moves and a 2.7 on the forward perimeter. (B/c of the power I got from that move...) My not getting a reskate had nothing to do with ONE particular move. It was an overall thing. (i.e. the other two judges that didn't pass it gave me 2.3's on some moves and 2.4's on others.) If it was a matter of one move being on the borderline and everything else was passing, then yes, it would have been a different story. But this is not one of those cases! I was not deemed a reskate b/c of this.

REALLY BEND KNEES!!! If I did bend my knees enough, I'd probably would have gotten better scores on some of the moves... Certainly, it would harder for the toe pick monster to get me!

Watch your posture!!! They do watch for that... and besides, if you lurch over, then you'll definitely get bitten by the toe pick monster...

Just b/c "power" is taken out in place of "continuous flow and strength" doesn't make it that much easier to pass. If anything, having the emphasis on power encourages the skater to work on better technique. And as we all know, better technique makes skating those move elements ten times EASIER! (See the notes on "flat edges." If I had worked on power, there would be no "flat edges"...)

Also on the same vane: Taking out "power" in place of "continuous flow and strength" DOES NOT mean you can slow down!!! You still need to go FASTER and PUSH!!! This is the "continuous flow and strength" part of the moves! (Ha HA! And we, the pre-Bronze Peanut Gallery thought we have it lucky, huh? )

And speaking of flat edges: WATCH THOSE EDGES!!! Make SURE you're ON a true edge!!! This is primarily what did me in this time! If I had skated on a correct and true edge, I probably would have passed this test... Currently, it's probably kinda hard for me to distinguish and the only person who can tell me whether I'm on an edge or not are my coaches.

I don't have my test form with me. I'll get a copy of it sometime towards the end of the month. I'll have more comments then. Jay did read mine and did relay the comments onto my secondary coach, so they know what they have to work on now... One note of encouragment though... I will be testing again in two months!!! Secondary coach wants me to try it again!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Hey Jo Ann --

Huge congrats to you just for TAKING the darn thing

Sounds like you're getting closer and it's only a matter of time before you pass it. Your dubious reward, of course, will be having to start work on the Adult Silver moves.

Cheers,
Ellen, a permanent member of the Pre-Bronze Peanut Gallery

Thanks for sharing, Jazz. From your scores and what the judges and your coaches said, it sounds like you HAVE improved from last year. In fact, it sounds like you're really close! I know it's only a matter of time before you pass it - maybe as soon as December.

Be proud of yourself for getting out there and giving it another shot - and at 7 a.m., no less!

Question about the toepick issue on the back perim and power 3's: did the judges say you were on toepicks during the crossovers? The wide step? Or on the push to the FO edge after the B XO lobe (power 3's)? I am having some difficulty staying off my toepicks in back crossovers and I'm trying really hard not to push on my toepick when I step forward in the power 3's. My coach emphasizes the need to improve on my posture, definitely my weakest attribute in skating!

If you think about pressing down through the mid-foot and heel on your back crossovers, that will help get you off the toe pick.

It may be scary at first, but will have multiple rewards...

1. No (or significantly less) toepick scratching
2. Better use of the blade to execute both strokes of the back crossover

__________________
American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Jazzpants,
I hope you don't mind me printing out your post and sharing it with my coaches this week, since I'm prepping to test this in December, even though we are on opposite ends of the country.
Talking with my primary coach, it's bad enough that the judging for the standard track moves across the country is inconsistent. Because of that the adult moves, she feels are more confusing, even though there is a comparision chart on the USFS website spelling out the adult expectations!

__________________
Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

Thanks for the tips, Jen.

My coach kept emphasizing the need to keep my shoulders back - aligned with hips, not leaning forward. I've also watched the PSA moves video and it says to keep your weight on the "middle front" of your blades, but when I do that, I just scrape, probably b/c of my posture. Perhaps thinking of pressing back will also help my upper body issues.

I really, really want to pass this test on the first try, but I'm aware that may not happen.

It doesn't say, but my assumption is the push under on the back crossovers (for both moves) and on the power 3's it's on the push on the FO edge. (I was annoyed about that this morning!!!)

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

But isn't this part of the pattern "optional" -- how can they really comment at all [icedancer, sitting in fear that they judges won't like my end-pattern, or lack thereof, when I take this test.]


General comments:


This makes me wonder why they ever bothered to get rid of the term "power"? What does continuous flow and strength mean besides "power"? What is power anyway? [icedancer, sitting in fear that the judges will notice how slow and old she is when she takes her test...]

Well, thanks for the tips -- I hope you are feeling okay. This testing thing is HARD!!!

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Is Portland the only city with it's own ice-dance website? http://www.pdxicedance.net/

Well, I think they were more concerned that I couldn't keep the 3turn in control once I made the transition, not the end pattern itself. I had a note that my 3turns were swingy!

So still alot of work to be done on my forward power 3's... (GAWD!!! I really HATE this move!!! )

Well, as I understood it, one implies that you are being graded on how you generate speed. The other implies speed but doesn't imply that you are graded on how you generate speed.

However, here's the problem with this equation as far as MY test is concerned: I am also graded on correctness of edges and no toe pushing... all this IS related to HOW YOU GENEARATE POWER!!! Soooo... I think it depends on the judge. If the judge sees that you're generate speed (thru power) you MIGHT not get dinged for HOW you generate power and get a high score for following the focus anyway. (Which is the case for the judge that passed me.) Unfortunately, the judges around here tends to ding you on that anyway under "correctness of edges."

If it's any consolation, if you do generate power the correct way, you'll actually move faster w/o much effort. Of course, you would have to get used to controling the speed you generate thru that more powerful stroke or push, but that's another can of worms! (i.e. do it right first, THEN do it right faster!) ALSO, keep in mind I had an extremely TOUGH panel of judges!!! (At least that's what my coaches keep reminding me...)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Congrats on taking this bear of a test again, and on having the guts to go for it once more in two months! Thank you for sharing your experience.

Re the power threes, my ex-coach, who is a real authority on testing, has told me many times that you are allowed a little swing on those particular threes because it fits in with the flow of the move. I can only think that this is one of those regional differences. On the back XO to BO edge, bending your skating knee deeply on the BO edge will guarantee a real edge. You can train yourself to know when you are on edge: do the edge on a hockey circle. If you stay on the circle, you are on a true edge. If you move outside of the circle, you have flattened out. If move to the inside, your edge has deepened. Try all combinations and pay close attention to the feeling of each.

I sure wish I were ready to test, but it's looking farther and farther away.

__________________

I feel quite safe in guaranteeing you that no judge would pass a powerful test that was all toe pushes and flats. Primary/secondary focus aside, you are always being judged on the quality of your skating--that's what moves is all about! And whether or not edge quality is the main focus, you will always get dinged if the edges are not correct. They want us to have it all!!

The difference would be that at the lower levels they don't expect the same quality/polish as the higher levels, but the technique does need to be evident.

I haven't seen an adult test w/ the new rules, but my take on "continuous strength & flow" would be they want the move to be smooth, no hesitation, confident & yes, skated with good *consistant* speed. "Power" as a primary focus usually means the move should continuallly accelerate as you skate it.

According to the MITF Judges' Manual, Power is defined as

"the creation of speed and flow without visible effort. It is developed by a continuous rise and fall of the skating knee together with the pressure of the edge of the blade against the ice. (The skater should demonstrate the ability to exert equal pressure against the surface of the ice on both the right and the left foot.) End products of power are (1) velocity, speed or pace; (2) FLOW across the ice; and (3) acceleration."

I haven't yet seen an "official" definition of "continuous strength and flow" but I would generally expect a Bronze test to have minimal use of toe pushes. I would also expect to see forward crossovers that may not be true "dance progressives/runs" but close.

Re the forward power 3 turns, it seems there is a difference around the country on expectations. In my neck of the woods, at least on Preliminary, the judges expect to see some control of the turn, with the edge held afterwards, before the skater strokes onto the BI edge.

The MITF school Manual states that common errors for forward power 3's include

"After the forward 3-turn as the skater is changing feet, he/she will shift onto a back outside edge instead of a back inside edge;

inability to create power from the BI edge with the weight shift into the back crossover;

uneven timing;

Too noisy (use of TOEPICKS instead of the edges to stroke);

Lack of Control of Free leg and upper body;

poor posture."

These common errors apply whether the test is a Preliminary or an Adult Bronze.

__________________
American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

I would assume continuous flow and strength has to do with flowing on the correct edges, timing, correct pushes, and not slowing down where "power" implies acceleration through the move (I think of the power circles on Gold, Intermediate, and Junior when thinking of the MITF definition of power).

As it stands, it seems that you are making progress on the test and could very well pass in December with a few corrections. If you think about pulling your shoulders back and sitting down in your knee over your skate more, it may help you to get rid of the toepick monster (this is what worked for me).


Good luck getting it just a little better, Jazz

It took me a while to figure this out on my own...it really helps a lot! (yeah, it is scary pushing that far back on the blade though)

I'm sure you will pass on the next go! You are so close!

Thanks for posting the info. I'm sure it will help everyone interested.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Sorry to hear you didn't pass, but I think you're taking all the right info from this experience. Good luck next time!

Oh, I'm sorry Jazzpants, but at least it sounds like you got some good and helpful feedback! Hang in there, and you'll get it next time!

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August 22, back on the ice!

I'm sorry you didn't pass trhis time, Jazzpants but I'm sending you good vibes for the next time!

I didn't do the lower moves due to grandfathering, so please bear with me. Is this the move where you do, for example, a RFO three turn, then put your weight on the left foot, do a crossover, then step into another RFO three turn? Because if it is, then the push under they are talking about is the push under on the back crossover, not a push into a forward edge.

When you do a back crossover, the cross in front should be accompanied with a push under on the opposite foot. It kind of suprises me that they would be so into that on the pre-bronze test - at that level, cross overs are often steppy anyways. It's a beginning test, not the Intermediate power circles!

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Congrats on getting out there and giving it a try. It sounds as though you've made progress from the last time you tested. Definitely test again - you're well on your way and practice in front of the judges will help with nerves, which will help with the toe pick issues. Good luck with the next try - just do it!

Yep! That's the one! It's actually on the push under on the back crossovers AND when I step onto the next RFO for the next RFO3. I hear scratchy sounds each time I push onto the RFO edge (well in this case it was the LFO edge.) Definitely a no-no!!! And unfortunately I figure out that part of the reason I was doing that was b/c I feel I'm going to lose edge control on the FO3's when I go faster, so I end up going on the toepick to slow down. I also hear scratchy noises at times on the push under on the crossovers too, b/c I don't have much of a "cross-under" too!!! (I know! BAD JAZZPANTS! BAD!!! )

This is NOT pre-Bronze moves, but BRONZE moves!!! There is a passing average and this is NOT an "encouragement test" as pre-Bronze moves is. (Not that I think pre-Bronze moves are easy either, mind you! I had one guy who's a better skater than I said coming out of the test that he passed "by the skin of his teeth." ) The judges are trying to determine if I have a certain level of good skating technique and I made some major boo-boos on that.

I'll just have to prepare now so I left no doubt in anyone's mind come December that I'm definitely a Bronze level skater!!!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Keep Working JazzPants...I have faith you will get this!

My coach stressed edges! I felt my speed...flow....and...power...(Back in July when I tested Bronze MITF)) came from my edges and Timing! I had a couple criticisms:

one Judge said on my Back crossovers that I did not truly get to a BI edge on my left foot when heading towards the boards. 2.4...but gave me a 2.6 for the landing position move because of speed power and good edges.

another said my power threes were too tentative.....2.4 but gave me 2.6 for landing position move because I had such good speed.

All three judges said my timing on power threes(placement of 3 turn) and timing for 5 step was very good.

Well I know that even though I passed I still practice these moves every time I skate and I try to think about what those judges said. Edges!

Keep at it!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

Sorry Jazzpants - I knew that it was the Bronze . It was a rather long weekend for me.

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

That's okay. And yeah, I know what you mean. I shouldn't be judged as if I'm doing Int. Moves. Unfortunately in this case, I drew an incredibly TOUGH panel of judges and their expectations are that my crossovers be more like progressives and NOT ummm... "cross overs." (They should just change it to alt. forward progressives and alt. backward progressives instead! Yes, I'm laughing but I'm also QUITE serious!!!)

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

FYI, Backward progressives are a totally different beast than back crossovers. They don't even look like back crossovers.

I can't specifically speak for a Bronze test here, but for a Pre-Juv test, progressive-style forward crossovers are expected.

Unfortunately, even in an Adult Bronze test (with a lower passing average than Pre-Juv), doing the old "pick up and cross over" combined with flats and toe pushes is probably not going to convey an impression of "continuous strength and flow" to many judges. For one thing, there's often a certain lack of smoothness associated with the "pick up and cross over" version of forward crossovers, as well as with toe pushes.

__________________
American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

Jazzpants, would you mind clarifying this for me? I understand the difference between forward crossovers and progressives, and see why the judges might prefer progressives, but I thought backward progressives didn't actually involve a cross. Or are you really referring to backward crossovers with an actual step over vs. sliding the foot on the ice without picking it up?

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August 22, back on the ice!

At the Adult Bronze level, one should not be picking up the "crossing over" leg ... it should be more of a "slide over" with the weight already well over the inside (to the circle) leg.

__________________
American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...