I sent him an e-mail. He's the Harlick guy?

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I see and appreciate Bill S. and bluemoon's point about taking care, being thoughtful, and not overworking. I just don't think it needs to be underlined in an article to adult skaters. We tend to be the careful ones - we can't afford to get injured, and we recover more slowly, no doubt - and if anything, most of us have learned these lessons of care on our own (in my case, sometimes the hard way, but that's not always a bad thing, too).

It reminds me of how women were once cautioned to be more "careful" than men because we were supposedly more "delicate" creatures. That's the same kind of patronizing, although of course not the same audience. Did anyone ever lecture men that way?

And now, does anyone lecture competitive kids not to overdo it on stressful jumps and over-training? But who gets injured more, kids or adults? I bet a scientific study would be revealing. Stress injuries have risen among child athletes by huge numbers (for instance, "pitcher's elbow" has debilitated a whole young generation of ballplayers, as never before in the history of baseball). So why don't we see articles in Skating (the "official" magazine) about childrens' vulnerabilities?

I guess maybe I'm humorless. But I like my humor leavened with respect; and I don't think Mr. Edge conveys respect for adult athletes - even if he is one.

As an adult skater, coach, and someone who works for a pro shop, I have never found his advice particularly helpful.

Because he works for Harlick, he has a bias (e.g. adults should buy custom skates. Hmm. Like Harlick Customs?). They really should find someone who has a broader point of view. It's like having someone who works for Nike review and recommend athletic shoes. I'm not saying he doesn't understand the mechanics of boots, blades, and fitting but Mr. Edge is going to favor the product he knows best. There was an article a few issues ago about the Paramounts. It was like he copied directly from the promotional info from Paramount. Not very balanced reporting.

In my experience in fitting and coaching adult skaters, I wish he would have mentioned the fact that the more expensive the boot does not mean that it is the best (and the best boot for you.) He mentioned overbooting but I wish he would have explained it better.

As an example, I have spoken with an adult skater working on waltz jumps, skating just once a week who asked me about getting for her the Graf Edmonton Special and Wilson Gold Seal blades. She told me "money is no object." Well, great and as much as I would love to overboot you and oversell you, you will never be able to bend your knees the the Edmontons and then my company and I will look bad for not knowing what a skater with those variables can progress in. I gave her two options that were skate sets that would give her the appropriate amount of ankle support for what she would be working on for a while. Did I potentially lose hundreds of dollars in a sale, yes. Did I do the right thing? I think so because it's my job to assist my customers in selecting the right boot for them. At least he says, do not get overbooted but he did not explain it enough for me.

There is so much knowlege needed to fit skaters and some of what Mr. Edge says is right on but he's done a real disservice about the customs thing and having more stability on a heel to toe blade fit and saying that spins will be more difficult.*

* More of the blade surface will be on the ice = more drag but he fails to take into account any explanation of the radius of the blade which can also give you the feeling of more stability (ie Wilson Coronation Comet vs. a MK Professional) regardless of the fit.

Summerkid, could you please explain how to get fitted for the best boots (for you) when so many pro shops seem to have preferences (if not outright "deals" with certain brands) that they really push? Is there a way to test drive Grafs, say, if your dealer only pushes Jacksons (sorry to make it sound like drugs!!)?

Is there a good source to read up on the differences between skates, blades, and the combo of skates/blades?

Maybe this is a topic for a new thread?

Then I hope you will stop by the Harlick booth and drag him out of there, by his ear if necessary, to watch some of the adults skate - people like Sherry Dowlen (isn't she 70 now?), or Jack Lineham (87 years young, and I think I've spelt his last name wrong, but you know who I mean), or any of the Class V crowd. Or some of the totally awesome younger folk in class II and III, too.

And I have to confess that I would find it hard to practice in the early mornings without a large travel mug of unsweetened black coffee (taste, not virtue, but it's real, not instant!) sitting on the sides of the boards awaiting my attention!

The skate-mums at our rink have a rota for going out to the very good hole-in-the-wall coffee shop by the station and getting coffee for themselves, the pros, and some of the skaters!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

The pro shop I work for (which I try never to post so I don't sound like I'm trying to sell anything, always feel free to PM me if you have specific questions) does NOT have any deals with specific brands. Further, we do NOT get any commission so there is no drive to sell someone more than they need. Also we do not carry every brand because it becomes impossible to maintain stock in that many boots of that many sizes and widths and not because we don't think they are good skates.

My fitting method goes a little something like this: skating level, how often you skate, how fast you've advanced, growing foot or not, wide foot or not, weird foot problems (bunions, spurs, flat, big arch), height and weight, how hard on your boots are you, what are you currently wearing and does it work for you and also does your coach have a recommendation because they already know how you skate. Now, the coach recommendation sometimes does not help because they will recommend what they have so I weigh it according to the other information. All of those things form a picture to me. I can hone in on what would be appropriate for you.

As far as reading up on the boots and blades, most companies have websites (some are better than others) that can point you in the right direction as far as the right combination for you but there are always exceptions based on the criteria I listed above.

Here are a few translations across different brands:
1. V-notch, V-Cut, Flex Notch: Different ways to describe the v shaped cut out at the ankle. This helps boots be more flexible from the get-go making break in easier.

2. Heat moldable: Always do the heat molding. Always.

3. Padded collar, roll top: The top of the boot is finished off. It wasn't always this way leading to some irritation where the top of the boot meets the ankle.

4. Blade Rockers or Radii: What are the basic differences? 7 foot? 8 foot? 8.5 foot? The bigger the rocker, the more blade on the ice (stabler). The shorter the rocker, the less blade on the ice (tippier). MK blades are all 7 foot. Ultima blades are all 8 foot. Wilson has blades that are 7, 8 and 8.5 foot depending on the blade. Paramounts are 8 foot. I am not sure about Watts or Graf but I could find out. The rocker is determined by the curvature of the blade (it's really only part of the blade, blades have several rockers) and what size circle that curvature would create. The Skateology book by Sid Broadbent is very technical but explains this all in detail.

Oh, okay, just checking, LOL! I'm not saying I can skate the 6:30am session without having my precious cappuccino first (I drink it in the car on the way to the rink), I just don't see coffee as something to sip to stay hydrated between program run-throughs! That's why I figured Mr. Edge must not know many competitive adult skaters.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Maybe he's using coaches as reference: almost every coach at the early AM sessions has a hot cup of something on the boards.
(Although, I suspect some have more than just coffee, tea, cocoa, or soup....)

That's right, I forgot you don't have DD. Sorry for you.

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Mark of a true professional: just do what's right!

I thought that the most telling part of the article comes at the beginning when he mentions that he's never thought about adult skaters before. To me that translates to "I don't know what I'm talking about, but that won;t stop me from speaking my mind"...


ANd Skaternum - luckily, one of my new partners explained to me just what an A**hat was, LOL yet another new adjective, oh the things we learn skating
Lyle

Whether coaching or skating, I prefer a Frappaccino.

I used to know some adults that would bring a cask of something strong to calm their nerves before a test. I was afraid it would affect more than my nerves so I never partook...

j

I was thinking the same thing as Mrs.Redboots. Mr. Edge needs to see some adult skaters skate!! By the way Mrs. Redboots - are your boots red?

Anyway, Just wanted to say it's great hearing all of your opinions on this and all topics. It's comforting to me to hear I am not alone in my thoughts. Not too many adult skaters at the hour I skate. I am planning on writing to the editor of SKATING. A very tactful letter of course. Maybe Mr. Edge is just uninformed. Anyway, keep your thoughts coming in!!

Tee hee hee. Just had to chuckle b/c I am BOTH a Harlick Custom boot owner AND a Nike gal. For ME anyway, both of those worked out quite well. For others, YMMV.

That is so surprising!!! He's probably fitted at least quite a few competitive adult skaters! I'm just looking thru the CAS posting and I see quite a few skater on the board who has seen Mr. Edge. That's why I find this article a bit weird... KWIM? And he's gonna be at AN, so he MUST know that we (competitive adult skaters) do exist!!!

I sometimes keep a thermis of my latte with vanilla sweetener in case I don't finish my food but not my coffee. It's a NICE treat AFTER my skate during my drive home!

I gifted my secondary coach this year with a thermis. She *LOVES* her Starbucks!!!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

You've got to know John to appreciate the tongue in cheek he wrote this with.

I have dealt with John for a number of years (6 to be exact) and that man knows his stuff when it comes to fitting boots as all three pairs he has fit me for are PERFECT as is the mounting. He does work a lot with Harlick (he has Master fitter status with Harlick along with a couple other manufacturers) but he also works with SP Teri, Klingbiel, Jackson, Reidell, Gam, etc and makes sure that the boot chosen matches the skater's foot type and level. He has a goofy personality, but he is in no way a goofball professionally. Many boot fitters can be back stabbing with one another and there are a lot of rude comments made by those who are seeking to make a name for themselves against people who are established.

He does not push custom boots when you go to see him in person unless it is the last option for your feet. He always looks for an off the shelf or partially customized option first before going the custom route. He doesn't want people to spend money when it's not necessary and he doesn't push a particular brand. He has gone out of his way to make things work for people (punch outs, insoles, wedges, inserts, "interesting" mounting options, and the list goes on).

He was at both ANs in Ann Arbor fitting boots, so he has seen first hand adult competitors and competition and has fit a number of other adults (some on this board and some not). The biggest problem I have when I go to see him is that if I make an appointment, he is always ~ 30-60 minutes behind, just like going to the doctor.

John helped a friend of mine even when she did not order her skates through him to get resolution from SP Teri because her boot fitter had given up on the situation but didn't get her the right people to contact to get it done herself. He didn't have to do that, but it WAS good customer service for the future. She said she would definitely get all her boots from him in the future because of his help, even though she's 3 hours away.

No, I am NOT John, but I DO know him and I completely appreciate the work he has done for me in the past and the services he will continue to supply.

Day to day, the man behind Mr. Edge may not recommend Customs but he did in his article for adult skaters. That is what bothers me.

Sherry is about my age -- maybe late 30s. Maybe you're thinking of her mom, Yvonne?

It didn't bother me, because frankly adults are perfect for customs. Our feet have stopped growing (except for the occasional bunion/corn!) and a good pair of customs can last years as a result. i know mine have, and I'm pounding the double jumps every time I skate. Some adults may have the perfect feet for a stock noot, but I sure don't know many of them. We tend to have wierd feet by the time we hit our 30s.

Which is not to say I appreciated the tone of his article, because I didn't. Just saying that that particular point didn't bother me.

Hi Techskater,
I can appreciate your post. And you seem to know John "Mr. Edge" well. And I'm sure he has helped many. But...my concern is many who read SKATING magazine do not know his goofy nature or personalilty as you stated. As you can see from this thread (which I started) many adults are insulted. As an adult skating ambassador for the Adult skating Committee we work on promoting adult figure skating.

This article does not seem to promote adult skating and I fear to some it may reinforce ideas that we are all just silly adults wasting time and money. If you went on the thread 'Comments to the Adult skater' which I started too, you will see there are many misconceptions and negative comments already regarding our skating. The last thing we need is a writer in SKATING putting us down. Even in jest. Remember, others do not know this man and many across the world read the mag.

Since you know him well maybe you could show him this thread.

No, but afterwards is quite another matter. I have saved a miniature single Highland malt for Saturday night.... must remember to pack it!

No, only the covers. And this morning the boot-covers were variegated green knit ones. These:


(Why does the IMG tag no longer work?)



Knew I'd get it the wrong way round. Duh.....

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Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

If he's who I think he is ..........and I'll finally find out............he sell's Harlicks. He doesn't work for them but is a skate guy based in the Chicago area. I would never let this guy measure me for boots again. I'm really curious, that's for sure.

I just read the article, and I am a bit offended.

I think the intention of the article was to be funny, but it came off as rather patronizing. I know that I certainly can't affort to spend my freestyle time talking and drinking coffee. And, I'm certainly not going to give up trying to perfect something just because I happen to be an adult. I also didn't appreciate the comment about a "nice, soft, supple boot works best". That may be true for dancers or lower level freestylers, but some of us adults are still trying to "pop off a few doubles", and too soft a boot would be totally inappropriate. The article seemed to imply that most adults are lower level skaters, and that they should be content with that. As far as the comments regarding stretching and backing off when you're hurting, that should go for all skaters, and not just adults. I thought the whole skate safely section was out of place in a column that is supposed to be about equipment.

It would have been nice for the article to focus on the equipment needs section instead of giving us a lecture about how to skate safely. I used to work for a pro shop. As Summerkid mentioned, I have seen many adults overbooted, and I wish that had been better explained. Fitters seem to put adults in stiff boots because of height and weight, but forget to account for skating level and the amount of time spent skating. I've also met many adults who got the stiffest, most expensive boot they could get their hands on because they thought that more expensive=better for them. I think the article would have been much better received if it had focused on equipment issues like these.

Even though I'm normally a lurker, I was going to start a thread re: this (I got the magazine today in the mail), but I saw there was quite a thread already started.

I am usually a totally a passive, hey man, everyone has an opinion, type of person, but this article had my blood boiling when I read it.

It was not funny in any shape or way.

I agree, Listen to Your Body is the key in skating and other disciplines (I'm a huge yoga fan, and any good yoga teacher will tell you to not push it/but they're telling that to the 19-year-olds as well as the 69-year-olds simultaneously).

However, the whole vibe of the article was so insulting. And re: the soft boots? Hello, I was suffering massive tendonitis, etc. from soft boots. I only got better when I switched to a stiffer boot. A 140-pound adult body landing up through attempted (not fully landed/rotated) Axels does not need soft boots. Especially when said adult has very hard landings. Yes, it's a bad habit, but it's my bad habit, and I need a harder boot to compensate.

And the blade thing...oh, yes, I am almost 40, I need baby blades? I can't handle the big, scary toepick?

I know Mr. Edge is not a skate person I've dealt with in my area (i.e., his first name is "John"), but I have run into this...you're an adult, do ice dance, retire, but don't do freestyle is the attitude.

I do ice dance now as well as freestyle (thanks to my hubby), but I love freestyle and will do it until my body tells me to stop....not some skate column guy.

Honestly, this column was wigging me out with its snarkiness way before he dissed the adult skating crowd. If he's thinking he's funny and failing, I feel bad, because it's not funny. I was always taught that "there is no stupid question" (i.e., asking a question means a willingness to learn/admit you don't know), and repeatedly I have seen snide remarks in this guy's column.

End of rant...

I would just LOVE to see how Mr. Edge is gonna defend himself at AN, if not on this board!!!

Anyone care to challenge him at the Harlick booth at AN??? Please REPORT back on this board about his reply!!! We WANT GOSSIP!!!

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Yes that and, reading this interesting discussion again, I am now very curious to see if he is eather a very smart goofball who just put his skate in his mouth atttempting to be funny or if he really doesn't have a clue!
Lyle

I urge everyone who has posted an opinion about the article here to send an email or note to Skating magazine. If we don't tell them, they're not going to know.

I'm going to let them know what I thought about the article and ask for a written apology in his next column.