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  #26  
Old 08-31-2009, 12:33 PM
doubletoe doubletoe is offline
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Originally Posted by fsk8r View Post
Unfortunately they never released the score sheets for the British so I've not been able to see the difference.
But I didn't know that there were different factors that scale the PCS mark. So does that mean that the only bit of the mark which should stay the same from competition to competition is the Technical mark (assuming all elements are called and performed the same)?
I'm sure they use the same factors for all of the high-profile events such as the ISU Grand Prix and World Championships, but there are definitely some classes of competition where they can use different PCS factors at different competitions. For example, at the 2009 U.S. Adult National Championships they used a factor of 1.2 for the PCS, but at the 2009 ISU international adult competition in Oberstdorf, they used a factor of 1.6, which would make the same PCS marks 33% higher. Additionally, PCS marks are much more subjective and relative than technical marks, so they should only be used to compare different skaters within the same competition, not scores across different competitions (I think of it as the 6.0 section of the scoresheet). Technical scores can be compared across different competitions, but if there are more downgraded jumps and fewer higher level spins and step sequences called in a certain competition, you will have to consider the possibility that the technical panel was just stricter in that competition. Generally, when you get a strict technical panel, they are strict with all of the skaters across the board.

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Originally Posted by RachelSk8er View Post
Would a (insert pretty much any jump here)-side hop-axel or a (insert single jump here)-half loop-flip count as a two jump combination since a half loop and side hop aren't real jumps? Or would it be a sequence of 3 jumps and I'm in trouble if I already did a 3 jump combo/sequence in my program? Not that I can do a jump-side hop-axel and half loop-flips are AWKWARD! But wishful thinking...

At Peach I tacked a toe loop onto my lutz-half loop-sal because I was in a good mood and had speed coming out of the sal, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't dinged for it being (possibly) more than 3 jumps.
A "(insert pretty much any jump here)-side hop-axel" and a "(insert single jump here)-half loop-flip" are both perfect examples of a 2-jump sequence, since neither the side toe tap nor the half loop count as jumps. Neither of these sequences would ever be counted as a combination, since the two listed jumps are connected by an unlisted jump or hop. If you add another listed jump at the end, as you did at Peach, it turns it into a 3-jump sequence, which is absolutely fine as long as the other two combination/sequences in your program don't have more than 2 listed jumps.
The good thing about 6.0 is that you can do sequences instead of combinations and get just as much credit for them!
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Last edited by doubletoe; 08-31-2009 at 12:51 PM.
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  #27  
Old 08-31-2009, 02:19 PM
RachelSk8er RachelSk8er is offline
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Originally Posted by doubletoe View Post
A "(insert pretty much any jump here)-side hop-axel" and a "(insert single jump here)-half loop-flip" are both perfect examples of a 2-jump sequence, since neither the side toe tap nor the half loop count as jumps. Neither of these sequences would ever be counted as a combination, since the two listed jumps are connected by an unlisted jump or hop. If you add another listed jump at the end, as you did at Peach, it turns it into a 3-jump sequence, which is absolutely fine as long as the other two combination/sequences in your program don't have more than 2 listed jumps.
The good thing about 6.0 is that you can do sequences instead of combinations and get just as much credit for them!
Perfect! Thank you, that makes total sense now Just trying to figure out ways to maximize my program, and I'm a much better jumper than spinner (despite my lack of a clean axel), particularly when I do compete against people who are really good with spins because they can bend in all sorts of ways my body just won't go.
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  #28  
Old 08-31-2009, 03:07 PM
doubletoe doubletoe is offline
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Originally Posted by RachelSk8er View Post
Perfect! Thank you, that makes total sense now Just trying to figure out ways to maximize my program, and I'm a much better jumper than spinner (despite my lack of a clean axel), particularly when I do compete against people who are really good with spins because they can bend in all sorts of ways my body just won't go.
You're welcome! And since sequences are as good as combinations under 6.0, you don't have to do both of your loop jumps as the 2nd or 3rd jump in a combination. If you do a listed jump-half loop-salchow or listed jump-half loop-flip instead of a listed jump-loop, that leaves you free to do a beautiful big solo loop by itself. I miss being able to do that. . .
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  #29  
Old 08-31-2009, 09:24 PM
RachelSk8er RachelSk8er is offline
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Originally Posted by doubletoe View Post
You're welcome! And since sequences are as good as combinations under 6.0, you don't have to do both of your loop jumps as the 2nd or 3rd jump in a combination. If you do a listed jump-half loop-salchow or listed jump-half loop-flip instead of a listed jump-loop, that leaves you free to do a beautiful big solo loop by itself. I miss being able to do that. . .
That's exactly what I was trying to avoid getting rid of. I like leaving one of my solo jumps as a loop all by its lonesome because you can play around with turns before the entry. You lose that if you use them both up as the 2nd jump in a combo (I never really do them as the fist jump). Although half looping into solo jumps or 2 jump combos also opens up that option...
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Last edited by RachelSk8er; 08-31-2009 at 09:29 PM.
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  #30  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:03 PM
doubletoe doubletoe is offline
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Originally Posted by RachelSk8er View Post
That's exactly what I was trying to avoid getting rid of. I like leaving one of my solo jumps as a loop all by its lonesome because you can play around with turns before the entry. You lose that if you use them both up as the 2nd jump in a combo (I never really do them as the fist jump). Although half looping into solo jumps or 2 jump combos also opens up that option...
Yep! I always loved doing a big RFO Ina Bauer, changing edge to RFI and going right up into a loop!
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  #31  
Old 09-02-2009, 08:23 AM
RachelSk8er RachelSk8er is offline
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Originally Posted by doubletoe View Post
Yep! I always loved doing a big RFO Ina Bauer, changing edge to RFI and going right up into a loop!
My new mission is to get a wally down. I can wally the "wrong" way off of my L foot and rotate clockwise, that puts me on a LBO edge and I can go into a lutz. We have a few kids at my rink who do this, it looks so cool. Except of course they do a double lutz...

I think I'm also going to go back to working on a LFO-LBO rocker into my lutz. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do this, but I don't see why it can't be done if you can do a huge rocker with a lot of speed.

I started playing w/these last year but at the time, my lutz itself wasn't strong enough and I had some bad technique habits to break (still sort of do but not nearly as bad), so in my program I just spiraled into one and did footwork before the takeoff edge of the other.
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  #32  
Old 09-02-2009, 12:04 PM
TreSk8sAZ TreSk8sAZ is offline
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Originally Posted by RachelSk8er View Post

I think I'm also going to go back to working on a LFO-LBO rocker into my lutz. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do this, but I don't see why it can't be done if you can do a huge rocker with a lot of speed.

.
That's how I've almost always done my lutz, until my most recent program we changed the entry. But that's the easiest way for me.
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  #33  
Old 09-02-2009, 12:11 PM
doubletoe doubletoe is offline
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Originally Posted by RachelSk8er View Post
My new mission is to get a wally down. I can wally the "wrong" way off of my L foot and rotate clockwise, that puts me on a LBO edge and I can go into a lutz. We have a few kids at my rink who do this, it looks so cool. Except of course they do a double lutz...

I think I'm also going to go back to working on a LFO-LBO rocker into my lutz. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do this, but I don't see why it can't be done if you can do a huge rocker with a lot of speed.

I started playing w/these last year but at the time, my lutz itself wasn't strong enough and I had some bad technique habits to break (still sort of do but not nearly as bad), so in my program I just spiraled into one and did footwork before the takeoff edge of the other.
A CW walley would be amazing! I haven't tried LFO rocker to lutz but it seems like it would be a fun entrance so I wonder why we never see it? Have you tried a LFI bracket lutz entry? I've got one in my new program and it's working OK, but I still need to get more outflow on the landing.
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  #34  
Old 09-02-2009, 01:00 PM
ibreakhearts66 ibreakhearts66 is offline
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Originally Posted by RachelSk8er View Post
My new mission is to get a wally down. I can wally the "wrong" way off of my L foot and rotate clockwise, that puts me on a LBO edge and I can go into a lutz. We have a few kids at my rink who do this, it looks so cool. Except of course they do a double lutz...

I think I'm also going to go back to working on a LFO-LBO rocker into my lutz. I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone do this, but I don't see why it can't be done if you can do a huge rocker with a lot of speed.

I started playing w/these last year but at the time, my lutz itself wasn't strong enough and I had some bad technique habits to break (still sort of do but not nearly as bad), so in my program I just spiraled into one and did footwork before the takeoff edge of the other.
Hehe...first time I tried a walley, I jumped CW of my RBI edge and couldn't figure out what the the girl (who was doing them properly) was able to land on a RBO edge while I was on a RBI. I was doing a one-foot salchow in the opposite direction lol.

I love seeing walley sequences into lutzes or just traveling down the ice. I can do a CCW walley, but have never tried to even work on CW. I'm thinking I'll do that today

I THOUGHT Elene Gedevanishvili did the rocker entry, but she does the LFI bracket entry. I'm almost certain I've seen a high level skater do it and it looks great, but I cannot remember who. A few people at my rink do their lutzes that way sometimes. I can do it fine for a single, but have never gotten the rocker entry down for a double, even when I was landing them consistently otherwise.

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Originally Posted by doubletoe View Post
A CW walley would be amazing! I haven't tried LFO rocker to lutz but it seems like it would be a fun entrance so I wonder why we never see it? Have you tried a LFI bracket lutz entry? I've got one in my new program and it's working OK, but I still need to get more outflow on the landing.
I think the reason we don't see them that often (but I HAVE seen it on a high level skater, I just can't remember who and it WILL drive me insane) is that it takes a slightly different type of control. When I do rockers, I either do swing rockers or "figure" rockers with the free leg scissoring. Either way, I find that I have to add a separate, specific moment of check before I can reach back and prepare to really jump. The timing and body placement of that check is what makes it difficult for me to do a double off of it.
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  #35  
Old 09-02-2009, 01:30 PM
RachelSk8er RachelSk8er is offline
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Have you tried a LFI bracket lutz entry? I've got one in my new program and it's working OK, but I still need to get more outflow on the landing.
I've never tried this, never even thought of it. Porbably because I hate brackets and doing them with speed scares the living crap out of me. I never had to do the brackets on intermediate MIF so I never learned to do them properly (when I took intermediate, it was back when bracket-3-bracket was still on it and the current pattern didn't exist. Bracket-3-bracket doesn't teach brackets properly). I do actually have a bracket in my free program this year though, so I'm trying to turn over a new leaf. I should ask my coach to work with me on it though, it's probably not as horrid as it sounds, and probably easier than the rocker. I just hear bracket and cringe.

We have a set of twins at my rink who wally before their double lutzes. It's kind of cool, they jump and spin in opposite directions so in both cases, they are doing the wally the "wrong" way for them. All their spins and other jumps have neat entries too. I'd love to see them do a similar pairs or show routine together because they could do some really cool shadowing.
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Last edited by RachelSk8er; 09-02-2009 at 01:42 PM.
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  #36  
Old 09-02-2009, 02:12 PM
NoVa Sk8r NoVa Sk8r is offline
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Originally Posted by doubletoe View Post
A CW walley would be amazing! I haven't tried LFO rocker to lutz but it seems like it would be a fun entrance so I wonder why we never see it? Have you tried a LFI bracket lutz entry? I've got one in my new program and it's working OK, but I still need to get more outflow on the landing.
Or LFO counter into lutz!
I am desperately trying to get this as an entrance, but I am still too scared to do the forward counter with enough speed required to do a nice lutz.
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  #37  
Old 09-02-2009, 05:45 PM
doubletoe doubletoe is offline
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Or LFO counter into lutz!
I am desperately trying to get this as an entrance, but I am still too scared to do the forward counter with enough speed required to do a nice lutz.
I'm with you on that one. Can't imagine doing a counter at speed! Fortunately for me, the LFI bracket was my best bracket on the Intermediate MIF so it's not quite as scary to do it from that entrance.
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  #38  
Old 09-02-2009, 06:47 PM
RachelSk8er RachelSk8er is offline
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Originally Posted by doubletoe View Post
I'm with you on that one. Can't imagine doing a counter at speed! Fortunately for me, the LFI bracket was my best bracket on the Intermediate MIF so it's not quite as scary to do it from that entrance.
A counter would be cool since a lutz is really just a counter in the air. I think it's easier, at least for me, to barrel down the ice doing a rocker though (especially if you ice dance and jump R handed, it's the same rocker you'd have to master to pass the Rocker Foxtrot...it's a pretty big rocker and at a decent speed in that dance, particularly on the solo).
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  #39  
Old 09-03-2009, 03:14 PM
doubletoe doubletoe is offline
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Originally Posted by RachelSk8er View Post
A counter would be cool since a lutz is really just a counter in the air. I think it's easier, at least for me, to barrel down the ice doing a rocker though (especially if you ice dance and jump R handed, it's the same rocker you'd have to master to pass the Rocker Foxtrot...it's a pretty big rocker and at a decent speed in that dance, particularly on the solo).
I agree! I love that LFO rocker so much I have two of them as transitions in my program, LOL! I do one of them as rocker-RBI3-chocktaw (like on the Novice MIF test).
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