Yes. In addition, events were only held on the North Pole Rink all of Saturday if I'm not mistaken. If both surfaces were utilized from Wednesday through Saturday there may have been sufficient time to hold Pre-Bronze freestyle events.

My understanding from a post that Morry Stillwell posted on FSU was that we had over 600 conmpetitors, not 450. Perhaps only 450 showed up, but I beleive 600 PAID the entry fee. So there's not much of a loss of income there.

Can anyone confirm the # of entries? I'm sure I'll know when we have the next ANs 2007 meeting

I added my signature too! I've always thought that Pre-Bronze belonged at AN and I hope you guys are successful in getting it added. Good luck!

Hi,
Many years ago events were eliminated, the figures and the final rounds of interpretive. The reasons given were 1. the event was becomming too large and too difficult to schedule for the required national level judges and the ref and LOC, 2. for the interp, the judges did not want to see "all that non-skating" as they put it.
I would not be in favor of a pre-bronze, but return the final interp rounds. If the national level judges did not want to judge the level of skating in interp, I don't see adding a level below this.

AN is suppose to be a National level event, open or not. I'd rather not see it become the same as a local or regional event.

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Thank you, WhisperSung! Your post summed up my thoughts perfectly.

The bar to what? The chance to compete, to see great skating, enjoy our sport, meet new friends? We already have those opportunities - all we are asking for is to compete at a national-level event and meet and see adult skaters from across the country. Heck, we can already go to O'dorf.

No one is asking for Pre-Bronze skaters to compete at Bronze, or any other level they haven't qualified for. We're asking for a legitimate, USFSA-recognized skating level to be included in a USFSA competition. I don't see why Bronze skaters (or any other level of skaters) should be objecting on the grounds that they worked harder to pass their tests than the Pre-Bronze skaters did. The Silver or Gold skaters could say the same thing about the Bronze skaters.

Originally, AN was set up for all levels of adult skating (at the time, the lowest level was Bronze). As Jazzpants pointed out, the reason for not adding Pre-Bronze to AN when the level was created was never given (and I've talked to reps on the Adult Skating Committee who don't even know). If the goal is to have an inclusive event, then it seems adding Pre-Bronze is the right thing to do.

MSF, I think it's great that you passed all of those tests in such a short time, but as sk8pics pointed out, it's not the norm, and it often has nothing to do with dedication or wanting it enough or whether it's "supposed to happen". There are many other factors that influence the progress someone makes (money, time, family obligations/emergencies, age, coaching issues) that are often out of the skater's control. I'm not advocating we make exceptions to rules for personal issues or anything like that, but I do want to make the point that just b/c Skater A learned certain skills in a certain amount of time, they shouldn't expect Skater B to do the same thing.

To be certain, there is no pre-bronze category at O'dorf. You'd have to skate up to bronze level.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Which a lot of people did last year, and very nicely they skated, too. Same applies to the Mountain Cup - my Husband is competing at Bronze because that's the lowest free-skate category offered, and nobody gives a hoot that he has no free skating tests and no plans to take any!

As I'm not a member of the USFSA, I can't sign your petition, although I certainly would if I were. But I do have one query - if they are hoping to roll out the NJS system within the next couple of years, where does that leave the pre-Bronze dancers?

At Oberstdorf, the lowest dance category is Bronze because the pre-Bronze dances are not ISU, so there are no "standards" for judging them. At the Mountain Cup, the pre-Bronze and solo dancers (and the Interp and Improv classes) will be judged on the old "relative" system, whereas Bronze up, and free skating (and pairs) will be NJS.

Personally, the sooner the ISU gets its act together and works out what to do for the low-level dances, the better as far as I'm concerned! But I should hate to see pre-Bronze dance dropped from AN because the dances can't be judged under the NJS.

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

The same applies to interp numbers. How would the NJS work for those events?

At least in O'dorf last year, ISU added elements for some begining adult elements, including waltz jump, throw waltz, and pivot spiral.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Playing devil's advocate, by this logic you could argue that ONLY gold and masters be allowed to compete, since that's where the "crossovers" to the juvenile free and above occur.

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

A few random responses and rebuttals:

sk8pics said:
"you have no idea if an older skater, and one who started as an older adult (like over 35) will ever be able to pass the Bronze tests...Should that person be denied the opportunity to compete at Adult Nationals forever?"
Well, consider this, where do you draw the line? It's too bad that some people will not ever pass the Bronze test, but the rules should not be changed for these cases... otherwise, why even have rules or standards? For me, I may never land a double Lutz in my life, but that doesn't mean the Senior FS test requirements should be changed to accommodate me. It's a sad but true fact of sport because everyone has that one skill that's just out of their reach, but this should not be a motivating reason to change the rules.

Re the number of starts at AN 06:
Keep in mind, Dallas was probably an anomaly. I would wait and see how the numbers are in Chicago before proclaiming that there is enough room in the schedule for new events to be added. I know that there are a lot of skaters in my club who purposely skipped Dallas 06 and are waiting for Chicago 07, and perhaps skaters in other clubs are doing the same. However, if the number of starts at Chicago 07 continues to be low, then we can talk. Again, I think the numbers issue is the strongest argument the PB's have going for them right now, and I have no rebuttal against that.

jazzpants comments on the 1997 rule change (petition #1):
Okay, so then we don't really know why the rules were changed in 1997, fair enough. I think it would be helpful to find out though. However, re Flo's comments about eliminating interp final rounds is quite telling.

jazzpants comments re MIF tests (petition #2):
First, I do NOT believe that silver skaters should compete in gold, or gold skaters in masters; levels are levels and some lines have to be drawn somewhere. I was only using that to make a point why I don't believe that having to pass moves tests now means that one's test level should affect one's competition eligibility any differently today than before MIF were implemented.

jazzpants comments re MIF tests (petition #3):
Again, I feel this is a non-issue regarding whether to have PB in AN. The well-balanced requirements weren't there at one time, they are now, wonderful, but that's not what seems to be what most people are objecting to.

Changing the pre-bronze test to require a program set to music, and to be scored on a numeric rather than pass/retry system:
Since the argument was made that Pre-Bronze has added moves and well-balanced program requirements, why not also change the PB test to require a program??? I mean, what is the opposition to this? Since the battle cry has so far been "We've changed our level to do all the things that skaters Bronze and up do", why not then change the test as well?

My point is: I would strongly oppose having PB skaters not have to do a program to music to get their test credentials, but then be allowed to do so at Adult Nationals. Everyone else has had to show this mastery before being given the test level (and thus entry into AN). It would seem unfair not to require PB skaters to do this as well. And while I think the argument to use AN as a learning experience for program run throughs was meant tongue-in-cheek, I could just turn it around and say "Why don't you just pass Bronze FS? Now THAT would be a learning experience, wouldn't it?" , indeed.

Also:
"While it may be true about Pre-Bronze tests requiring only a pass/retry and that our FS test does not require music, when you are talking about competing at the Pre-Bronze level, you have to compete according to #3. There's an expectation that people have to do a program...just like everyone else."
Well, that's you and Terri C and Debbie S, but not all the PB skaters, which is my point. What's to prevent someone from passing their PB free on 12/31/2006 and then showing up to AN 07 without any program experience? While I know you have competed programs in the past, it would be extremely difficult to distinguish which PB skaters have or have not also done programs in competitions. As I said, skaters like you and Terri C have done this, but not everyone who has their PB free test certificate has. That's why I think that checkpoint should be done during the test where it belongs, not during the competition entry process.

__________________
Whatever!

True, but if you can't skate at the senior level you have other options and opportunities to compete nationally.
I thought, from conversations last year, that attendance numbers seemed to be on a downward trend, so if that is true, then Dallas was not an anomaly. I recall arguments in favor of including 21 - 24 year olds related to declining numbers at AN.

That can always be done if it makes sense to enough people, and I see it as a related issue, but not central to the point. I have not heard anyone ever say they were opposed to having a program required for the pre-bronze fs test.

Tests allow you to compete at the appropriate level and to take the next level of test. And competition levels have been becoming higher than what is required at the test level. For example, there is no axel required on the silver test, but it seems more and more silver skaters are doing axels in competition and it is becoming more necessary to win at silver. So, in a way, this is the same idea: doing more in competition than you had to do for your test. But, does this mean if the test requirement were changed you would not be opposed to pre-bronze skaters at AN?

What's to prevent a Bronze skater from doing the same thing? Okay, they'd have one program experience, their test, but that's it.

Thank you for all your comments.

__________________
August 22, back on the ice!

To sk8pics:
I would tend to not want to use Dallas as an example since so many things were different about Dallas this year, not the least of which was the scheduling snafu which may have accounted for a lot of people signing up for events but then having to withdraw. For that reason alone, I'd be more inclined to see what happens in Chicago before changing any rules.

I think changing the PB test is most certainly central to the point. I think it is a HUGE difference to do elements individually vs. doing them in a program, and it's one that should not be underestimated. It's no secret that the PB test is known as an encouragement test (as is the Pre-Preliminary tests in standard track), so if the argument is for PB to be eligible for a National competition, then I don't think the PB test could then continue to be just an encouragement test. Granted, your point about skaters doing more in competition than on a test is valid, but this is not just about adding an extra jump for a competition, this is having a whole entire program to begin with.

Of course, we already know we have some PB skaters who have had extensive program experience, as well as some Bronze skaters who may only have done the one program for their test. But how else are you going to determine who goes into what track? There'd be no reasonable way to establish rules and hire volunteers to say "OK, Sally Smith only passed PB, but she competed in Peach Classic in a freestyle event so she's in, Fred Jones has his Bronze FS but when has he ever done another competition, hmm..." So the determination would have be done the way it is now: via test levels. Seems harsh for the PB skater who has every experience except for a pass on the Bronze free test, but using test credentials (in whatever form they happen to be) seems to be the only way to determine competition eligibility that is fair to everyone.

If the test requirement were changed as such, I would be a lot less opposed to pre-bronze skaters at AN. But again, the numbers issue would still have to be researched, and a viable schedule template would have to be put together to accommodate PB skaters which does not also cause the headaches we experienced in Dallas.

__________________
Whatever!

Can someone please explain to me why there is a pre-bronze dance, but not a pre-bronze pairs? Is there anyone out there that has anything against synchronized side-by-side bunny hops? I would love to see a pre-bonze pair catagory added--this would certainly encourage more skaters to try pairs, and would help feed the Bronze level, which seems to be lower in numbers, since the new Bronze, Silver, Gold structure started last year for Pairs at AN. It's interesting but Pairs Silver and Pairs Gold seems to be really healthy, but there seems to be a deficite at either end; meaning the Bronze Pairs and Master Pairs. Pairsman2 and I are testing Intermediate Pairs May 18th to try to move from Gold to Masters Pairs with this in mind--wish us luck! If there were a pre-bronze pairs, maybe it would help move this whole thing along. In other words, grow it from the ground up!

Actually the numbers of pair teams has increased significantly. When I competed in adult pairs there were 8 adult and 1 master teams at the first AN. When I was in Master's there were 8 of us and around the same number of adult pairs. It's not unexpected that the majority are in gold and silver. When the requirements changed and the new levels designed, most existing pairs fell into the silver and gold level. The masters is low because the master teams attending are highly variable from year to year, and also many who were in the master group now fall into the gold group.
I would definitely not want to have a pre-bronze pair event. It was very difficult and took a great deal of work and compromise to get the levels we currently have. The USFSA was very hesitant about having any pairs events at all, primarily because of safety. The level of skating required for pairs, whatever the elements, for safety alone is above pre-bronze.

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Pairs is not at all a discipline to take lightly. I played around with some lifts with Marty Lieberman at the AN closing party and gained a new appreciation for what pairs folks do. It's MUCH harder than it looks!!! Props to you pairs!

__________________
Whatever!

Yes, and to compete in pairs, you do not have to take any pairs tests. Your singles freestyle level alone can be used to determine what pairs level to compete in.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Yes, but at least we are ALLOWED to skate up! The rules of both USFSA Sectionals and Nationals does NOT allow that. (I wouldn't have a problem with this if Adult Nationals did allow skaters to skate up a level. In that case, I would just skate up a level. But they currently don't currently.)

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Prebronze pairs is a viable concept
Synchronization, for example, is just as much an element as an overhead lift.
Pairs IS NOT all about danger.
Safety is something that can and should be built into all levels and skating disciplines!

Well, there's not really a de jure "skating up" clause. You just put down what level you want to compete in. In a de facto sense, I think that I could just have easily marked "Masters Free Skating." (Of course, I wouldn't place well.) I don't think they even check.

__________________
Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Nova, you are right. You don't have to take any Pairs tests to compete in pairs, but you do have to pass Dance tests to compete in dance. Am I missing something here?

Okay, there is pre-bronze dance, but not pre-bronze pairs competition.
Then you don't have to pass any Pairs test to compete in Pairs, but you do have to take Dance test to compete in dance. Is something wrong with this picture?

So, a dancer of the correct freestyle level, never having had a pairs lesson or test, is allowed to grab a partner sign up and compete in pairs. But, me, who actually knows how to do the Changa Langa Canga, or whatever it is, can't just grab a dancing guy and compete in dance???

Hi NoVa. When we were redesigning the pair structure, there were committee members who wanted the pair competition requirement to be based on pair tests alone. However this would have eliminated many teams, so the thought was to phase this in later.

Pairs is a diferent animal from single skating. It may not be all about danger, but from the USFSA and judges view it is all about safety. Safety IS built into the pair levels, hence the limitations and requirements. I've been to enough pair events to see some really scary things on all levels even with the current limitations on skills. With all the restrictions adults have on time, I would rather see it spent on attaining bronze skills and developing basic skating skills and experience first, then pairs. I'm not interested in seeing an increase in numbers, just for the sake of increasing numbers.

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet

Lovepairs, there IS pre-bronze dance at nationals, but that is actually the second level of dance. The first set of dances is called preliminary, I believe (someone who actually dances please correct me if I'm wrong), but there is no preliminary dance event at AN.

__________________
Where are those knives when I need them?
----------------------------------
I need a detachable left foot!

Totally agree with you that a program is totally different from doing elements in isolation. And like I (think) I said before, I'm not at all opposed to changing the pre-bronze FS test requirements. Maybe that's what will happen... we'll have to wait and see.

Thanks again for your input.

Edited to add, I don't know the actual cuase of the scheduling headaches in Dallas, so I don't know if adding an additional free skating level would contribute to more of the same, but we shall see...

__________________
August 22, back on the ice!

I think dcden & NoVa have made a lot of interesting points.

I've only been taking lessons for a year, and while I'm not planning on testing, my moves are passing standard for pre-bronze (according to my coach). Just at that level, there's not a whole lot of required freestyle moves.

I realize a great program could be created with just a waltz jump, crossovers, and a basic scratch spin that might be entertaining, but I doubt most of you pre-Bronzers would only be doing waltz jumps and crossovers. You'd be doing essentially Bronze programs without the MiTF test passed.

That seems a little weird. If it's a true pre-Bronze level, and we want it to be true to the test, it should be just that, and not a Bronze program minus tests. And I can't think of comparable restrictions (no flips or lutzes, no combo spins) like the 'no doubles' rule in Silver that wouldn't just lead to dull skating.

I think, on balance, I'd rather see Interp restricted to non-gimmicky, classic programs, and use that as an outlet for pre-Bronzers. Or allow people to skate up.

Hi Crayon - Interp use to be no test. It was also all levels combined, which meant that a no test would compete with a returning any level skater. When the final rounds were removed, primarily because of the judges complaining about all the non-skating gimmicky programs one of the suggestions was to limit interpretive to silver and above. The silver and gold skaters would be in adult interpretive, and the master level skaters would be in master interpretive. This would allow the adult skaters who started as adults to not compete against former kid master skaters. The final rounds would also be kept, which I preferred. I've medaled in both, and the ones from final rounds events are pretty special, as you really do get to compete with the best across the board. I think many of the interp events are costume contests and could be held in the lobby.

__________________
Recycle Love - Adopt a homeless pet