Ok - From the article it said that you chose the public sessions, like you said, because of cost differences and inferred that it was your choice and it works for you. My point was what your decision will be when those sessions are not satisfactory for your level of skating (see - getting back to the skating issue). Then it will be your decision as to what's important to you. As I see it now - it's not a skating issue.

Given the huge difference between club and public skating, I don't see how skating on public sessions would be unsatisfactory. Fact is, some of the high level skaters find club ice unsatisfactory as they are unable to perform their higher level jumps due to the amount of people on the ice.

Skating on public ice is not really an issue compared to club ice.

I'm I missing something?

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Im not trying to speak for Flo, but to try and clarify your confusion, I think what she meant was some rinks dont allow skaters to perform certain elements on public session, so once a skater reaches a certain level, they cant do public sessions. Its not usually that a skater is banned from public, its just they cant practice their elements because the management wont let them, so their forced to do club ice. for instance, my rink used to have a policy that only up to single jumps were allowed on public ice. so once a skater started learning doubles, they couldnt practice on public ice sessions.

__________________
~Sk8Bunny~
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"I know you can be overwhelmed, and you can be underwhelmed, but can you ever just be whelmed?"

Ok, thats what I was thinking, I had thought though that I had clarified that the rinks around here are not overly restrictive in what you can do during public sessions.

At least I thought I did.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Actually, as I'm sure you already know, skating tights and skirts are often required in some clubs, precisely because of their practicality. In tightly form-fitting clothing, the skater's line can be seen, and more easily corrected. Now, Steven could wear tights without a skirt---but I think the skirt is much more attractive! If that's the reason for making little girls wear skating tights and dresses (and it often is), then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Steven's just being practical!

By the way, I'm not trying to jump on you personally, I'm just seeing things in your posts that I feel could use some light. Playing devil's advocate, if you will. Doesn't mean I hate you.

I don't see much difference here between some guy wanting to wear a dress, and some woman wanting to wear jeans--there are those here who prefer to skate in jeans, and you'd never get them into a dress if their life depended on it. Some of them even do doubles. Many club sessions wouldn't allow either clothing preference. However, I don't see why it has to correlate to committment to skating. Just as someone in jeans can care about skating enough to practice enough on the sessions where they're allowed to be comfortable in what they wear--and increase their skills, a guy in a dress also ought to be able to.

My own skating level isn't too far above Steven's (and probably lower at the moment due to regression), and I also chose to skate public sessions because I couldn't afford club sessions and all the other fees that went with it. It had no bearing on how serious I was about skating, though. Even though I'm poor, I still committed to skate that $1 public session every day. I wanted more progression, but simply couldn't afford to pay for it. I imagine that's about where Steven is--the dress really isn't the issue here.

Hehe Flippet, I shall mention again, as I did mention it in this thread somewhere, I've had coaches mention that it was great that they could see my lines compared to traditional male attire.

Clubs are funny in what they choose to do, females can wear skirts or pants, shorts (some people disagree that shorts are appropriate skating attire however) jeans, and leotards. The club I'm in states no jeans or shorts, yet skaters routinely wear shorts or jeans and are not reprimanded for doing so. In fact, a friend of mine who skates at another club, was told to change out of her shorts, yet the skating director was wearing shorts and was not told to change. I know if I skated in jeans I would be reprimanded for wearing them, and a skirt? Well, we all know that answer.

A rink I visted a while back clearly stated that all skaters must wear tights on their rules board. In case some people are unaware, tights are a safety factor, they do provide some protection when you fall and such. Well I watched as two elderly gentelman took to the (public) ice wearing shorts, and no tights. Now I'm not sure if a lady tried to take the ice in shorts or a skirt and no tights would be told to go put some tights on, but I found that to be a most interesting twist.

All this has got me to do some thinking, I could skate in tights and a leotard without a skirt, but I think I will get the same kind of reaction, as the leotard is considered female, even though it was first worn by men. And most assuredly would draw too much attention if I went with suntan tights, as it seems to me that seeing the male leg is a bit too much for some people!

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

It's not so much seeing the male leg in tights and a leotard, but what about the um...package?
I guess though its no different than women who skate in dresses or leotards and have half their chest showing. And male ballet dancers wear tights all the time.

Indeed Bunny - there's things that you can't do here on a public session also because it's really very crowded. And flippet - I do see something different in a guy wanting to wear a dress and a woman wanting to wear jeans. I'm not commenting on anyone's "serious or not serious' nature. What I said, and am saying is that at some point Steven, as do all of us, will have to make a decision as to what matters and what does not.
As far as "Steven's just being practical" - if you are intentionally wearing something/or for that matter doing something you know will not allow you to skate on club session - and if that's indeed what you want - that's hardly practical.
As an officer of my club, I would have no problem taking the time to listen and work with a person who's willing to compromise or work toward making the rest of the club's skaters (or at least a majority) comfortable but I haven't seen any evidence of compromise here at all. There are many issues to be delt with for clubs, and remember we're all volunteers, so time is valuable.

Lol, yes, I've had this observation made before, and as I've said before, there is a bump there, but nothing that bad as compared to when I wear a swimsuit (thank heaven for prints!) But I am a man, and thats what I have.

And as I've said, it's funny too that I wouldn't be allowed to wear a skirt that would actually hide that "bump"

And yes, I really don't see it much differently either then the two bumps on a ladies chest (which are usually accented)

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Ok, well I guess what matters to me is equality, and yes, I already know what your going to say, a man wanting to wear a skirt is not looking for equality. So the right for a lady to wear a skirt or pants, and a man to wear only pants in your book is equal.

Compromise? How can you compromise when one side is unwilling, and the other side cant? I am the one who has to compromise to skate on club ice, the club is unwilling to compromise at all. So tell me what kind of compromise could be made for a male to skate on club ice in a skirt then? Sure, I could skate on club ice in pants, that would be my compromise, and what exactly would the club be willing to compromise then?

Heck, even if I was doing an interpative event impersinating a female I wouldn't be allowed to wear a skirt on club ice. Females can wear skirts or pants on club ice or in an interpative event, while males can only wear pants on club ice, that is unfair, practical or not.

Compromising is about giving and taking, not just giving.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

You know what I'm talking about--twisting the direction of the statement will get you nowhere with me. Clubs want people to not wear jeans for safety and ease of movement issues. Yet, when someone who happens to be male actually wears the outfit that addresses those issues, somehow it's wrong?


I agree with Steven...where's the compromise? And why is it Steven's responsibility to make the rest of the club "comfortable"?

As far as I've seen (correct me if I'm wrong), Steven's not even really lobbying for his club to accept him as he is--he's just pointing out the inequities of the situation.

Agreed, I am the one who has had to force the club to take action, action they should have taken on their own.

Eeeek, yes, sorry Flippet, I'll have to correct ya, I've had to lobby the club to accept me for who I am. And in all actuality, age discrimination was my major issue with the club. When they updated the club board with pictures of it's members, my picture was not put up. Why? Because I was an adult and only kids pictures were going to be put up. I'm a club member, just like anyone else, I paid my money and do my bit to help, and then to be told, had my picture taken just like everyone else. And then, "your an adult so were not putting it up" There are other things that have been going on as well as others doing things that are "kids" events, as such I had to lobby and say it was unfair to not include adults especialy if they had the same ability.

Weeks after I joined the club, the clubs rules were amended to include clothing guidlines and who could wear what, and I hadn't even skated on club ice yet! Most people in the club know me, and what I wear, as do their kids, most of them have no issues with me at all, and even let me play with or have me watch their kids. Some have even skated with me during public sessions and think I'm pretty "cool" and (the kids) don't understand why I can't skate on club ice in a skirt. I only know of one club person who dislikes my skirt wearing in earnest, her comments about it are unfounded and improper and disrespectful.

I could care less if the club would allow males to wear skirts, I am satisfied to compromise to wearing pants on the few times I would skate on club ice. I however think that the clothing guidlines are discriminatory, and as such, should be more equal. I can wear a skirt whereever else I want, nobody else has said I can't.

Sorry Flippet,

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Well every other male skater I've met (from my son and his friends to World class skaters) seems to find trousers perfectly practical and many women seem to find them more practical. There are plenty of World class male skaters who seem to have got to the top without having to wear a dress in order for their lines to be seen and corrected. I have seen the odd male wear black leggings for practices (only dancers mind) but I've never met one who felt they needed to wear a dress for practical reasons. Besides, from his comments, I don't believe Steven is that interested in the practicality of an outfit but in the look and feel of it.

Glad to hear it - but then I never imagined you did.

dbny - thanks for explaining where you were coming from in your post. I'm sorry your daughter had such a miserable experience with a skating coach.


Steven- good to hear you do actually find time to do some skating in between all the striving for an equality most men wouldn't want if they got it

Anyway I'm impressed you can do all the back 3's and double 3's - I find them a bit of a nightmare. We dont seem to do 1/2 flips or 1/2 lutzes here so I dont' know what those are. I can do a 1/2 loop but a full loop is still on the impossible list. Have you done any dance? or competitions?

__________________
'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

Well, as a woman, I can't take my top off in public, let alone an ice rink and you don't see me lobbying for change, even though I am very comfortable with my body and maybe if I lobbied to make it acceptable it would become "the norm". Its get hot in summer you know! Men can take their tops off in public, I can't, that's not labelled discrimination, and I don't think it should be. The clubs own the ice, they make the rules and there comes a point where you should accept that - majority rules, but even if it didn't, the clubs still own that right.

In the public sesssions, sure, you should be able to wear what you like. Sacastic comments made to those who don't like your decision are uncalled for. If you want to wear a dress more that you want to skate, great, wear them outside of the rink, or wear them at the rink and be open to critisism, it is, after all, part of life that people will have differing opinions.

In all actuality, I'm hoping that the clothing restrictions will be lightened up, I know of many ladies who envy me (and no, not only for my legs) for what I am doing, for they do not posses to tenacity to say "Hey! I want to be able to compete in pants!" I think it's wrong that a man or women can't wear what they want to wear, even a judge told me, when they judge, there supposed to judge the skating, what the person wears plays no part in the score. And thats something I've said for a long time, skating should be about skating, if a female wants to wear pants, then why not? Yes, yes, lets not argue about tradition and what not again, but one of the contentions with some female skaters is the fact that they have to wear a skirt. And yes Batikat, I prefer the look and feel of an outfit, just ask my seamstress!

And you are sorta correct on the practicality of it, being more self concious of my attire and such lately, I am having a preference to tights. I do not feel as constricted as when I wear tights, nor am I aware of the looseness around my legs when I wear jazzpants. My leotards or just fine, and in all fairness, I don't feel the skirt that often (except that it keeps my butt warmer)


Well, my back 3's still need more, especially whichever ones are harder, (I think outside? As I can't remember which one was more troublesom, and won't know till I get on the ice!) I can do double three's all the way from a medium speed to a standstill, and yes, I am most impressed with myself in that fact! And interestingly enough, we don't have 1/2 loops over here, I know it exsists, but my one coach said it was not worth learning. I don't have good balance yet to do full flips or lutz's yet, and going to the clinic is probably going to be a waste of money and time given my level.

As for dance, we did do some of that in LTS since most of the other adults did not want to do jumps or spins (I didn't even know how to do a bunny hop!) I can't remember the first dance pattern, I think the waltz? Very simple and what not, I have the pattern, but rarely practice it, I do plan on doing more though as it does help with edges and such.

Competitions, well, I signed up for two, the first one was down in Columbus, Holiday something, I forget, I was the only guy signed up so my event was going to be cancelled. They contacted someone who they thought would compete, and he said yes, so even though my spins stunk, I was going to go. The other person however found a new job and had to cancel out, so my event was cancelled.

My second competiton was going to be in Euclid, about three weeks before the competition, my coach found a 9-5 job and couldn't coach me anymore. At about the same time, my contracting work picked up, suffice it to say, I didn't get a whole lot of ice time in before the competition. On top of that, being the emotional kind of guy I was, some people had falsely accused me of some things and I was just a little bit peeved. So I ended up scratching out of that one, and it was bad, as I watched everything going on and got involved again, I wished I had brought my skates and done it anyways.

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Hi Angelskates, actually, while it is the clubs ice, and they can make their own rules and such, I've been finding out that it's not actually legal for them to have rules that are considered discriminatory. And yes, it has been ruled that saying one sex can wear this, and another that, is discriminatory, even if it is not traditional.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way (coming from a man) but I agree with you about not being able to take your top off. I think that it is discriminatory that a female can not take her top off. And why is it bad for a female to expose her top? Because someone said that it is bad, and hence, it's bad, just like my skirt wearing, people think it's bad, so guess what? I'ts bad!

But of course so many people say it's a bad and evil thing to see a womens breast, thats why so many outfits out there accent them and such, to tease people. And hence it makes it all that much more evil, it must be so shameful, course all you have to do is look at all the enhancments, padding, and what not out there to understand that the naked female breast will never be accepted in it's bare form (western society that is)

A womens naked breast doesn't do much for me, a covered one however.....

Steven

__________________
"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Totally O/T - we do have half loops here. They are not used much, and when they are it is usually in an axel-1/2 loop-double salchow combo or something like that. AFAIK, many coaches don't teach it to "beginners" because it lands on the left foot, and that's also what can happen when someone bails from a loop. So the logic is, don't teach the 1/2 loop until the loop is solid, so that the "bail" won't be put into muscle memory.

OK, back to the topic at hand.....

__________________
"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Up here in Canada, women are allowed to take off their tops. Several years back a group campaigned and won in Toronto. So there were shirt removing for a little while. Now, no one seems to really do it, though you do get an occasional person

deleted .

Sorry - still O/T - just to say that like with you the 1/2 loops are only ever used as part of a jump sequence and never taught as a 'jump' in their own right. Interesting that they wouldnt use it til the Loop is solid - to be honest I dont really connect the two jumps as being at all related so I dont think it is why my Loop doesn't land (my problem is take-off RBO edge related I think). I came across the 1/2 loop in a jumps group class where the coach starts with a 3 jump (waltz ) and keeps adding. Think it usually goes 3 jump, 1/2 loop, salchow, toe-loop, loop. Occasionally i get as far as the toe-loop ,but I am definitely 'loop-challenged'

__________________
'skating is not just a sport - it is an obsession'

Although I totally blew my half loop in the final round this year I can normally do one (sort of).

Mine is better after I have bailed on a couple of jumps. I have now created my own combo based on a half loop but with other jumps - I think it is kind of cool - we will see if others like it if I can master it. I guess it is technically a sequence, though.

Hugs!
Danielle

Ever been to a ballet? Or seen men in those Lycra cycling shorts..... they leave nothing to the imagination, and at least a skirt does!

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Mrs Redboots
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I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

Flippet - I don't want to "get anywhere with you". Also, I'm not speaking for Steven's club, if you read my post, I said MY club, and that I would be willing to listen and compromise if such a similar situation presented itself. I don't speak for the others or their clubs. And also if you will remember that in my very first post, I did suggest a compromise.

There has been a lot of talk about rules and regulations. This morning I was getting dressed for a funeral, and was thinking about this situation. I chose to wear something appropriate, nothing that would intentionally make anyone uncomfortable. This is out of respect and consideration for the other people. (and before anyone has a fit - I'm not comparing the rink to a funeral home). The point is that like it or not for places outside of the privacy of your home, there are expected modes of dress and conduct that responsible adults are expected to follow. Do we need rules to be expected to be reasonably considerate of other's? I'm not arguing that it's not anyone's "right" to wear what they choose. Steven knows that his choice of dress is not allowed at the club, and has made people at the public sessions uncomfortable. Is his desire to wear a skirt more important than the other's people's needs to be comfortable? I'm sure there's many people who would like to dress in a manner not appropriate for work, school, public places, but don't. Hopefully it's not just the rules and expectations that keep them from doing this, but that they are making a responsible adult choice.

Steven, as far as it being "your responsibility to make the others in the club feel comfortable" How about at least taking the responsibility to not make them uncomfortable? This is what I'm talking about as far as compromise.

Photo by Barry Mittan

Oh I thought they were brilliant. Didnt associate what they were doing with them taking "the piss out of feminine beauty and grace" at all.

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MEL
Absolute Skating