Yikes! That was a huge jump from what I've been told the original Bronze and Silver tests were. Sounds like the Gold moves are more in line with the old test, than the current one, even though they were put in place with the current test. Seems they didn't learn from the early mistakes with the freestyle tests.

There are many skaters who test just to test, and not to be competitive. I know plenty of kids who passed Pre-Juv without having an axel first - and many without having very good camel spins either. It's about what's on the test, not what is expected in competition.

Over on the rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational newsgroup, there's a discussion about the changes. A few people have said they think removing the 3s from pre-bronze is essentially dumbing it down and stupid. The main opponent and I disagree on this. I think the adult tests should be designed to accomodate aging adult bodies. He thinks adults can stay fit and strong, and should test the same stuff as standard track. (I don't see what's so politically incorrect in acknowledging that we change and lose strength as we grow older. That's the point of the adult track, imo.) Just wondering what you guys think. Those few folks are the only I've heard complaining about "dumbing down."

I'm of 2 minds about it...

half of me (the half that struggled with getting a good checked 3) thinks the Alternating 3's were a bit much at Pre-Bronze...

the other half thinks "to do Salchow, toeloop & flip well (well, the latter 2 with a 3-turn entry), one has to be able to properly check the 3-turn.

And I've seen many an adult dancer be able to do well-checked 3-turns. Adult dancers who started dancing as adults.

There's no age limit on the standard track. Anyone can test it if they want to, and many adults do. I don't understand why there shouldn't be options. Different solutions for different needs.

I agree with skaternum.

But here is what a friend told me when we were discussing adult vs. standard track. I harshly disagree, but I thought I'd post it to add more fuel to the fire:

You either are skating because it's fun and you want to be the
best at it - or you can just get passed up through the ranks and, if it
isn't hard to pass or difficult to do and you merely want to be as good as
you have to be to get through the minimal requirements without having to
work for them - then, what's the point? Then everyone could do it. The
hard is what makes it great, right?

So, quit whining and just do what you have to do to achieve what you want to achieve.

Adults are supposed to be judged easier? Do you really want that? What
does that say for your skating? How far can it go - an axel will become a
waltz jump? Half jumps counted as full jumps?

Say what you want, but in my shallow and uninformed opinion - the sport is
the sport, elements are elements, and they shouldn't be watered down for
people based on age. They don't do it for the kids. If there was a 5-year-old skating at the intermediate level, they wouldn't be tested at a lower
standard simply because they are younger. Why should adults be treated any differently? And, as long as Adult skaters expect - and are expected - to get away with less stringent execution of elements - they will continue to
remain the bas|ards at the family reunion of skating.

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As one of the replies to our Mrs. Redboots on that same thread...the devil is in the "passing standards." (Or what I think she's trying to say is in what's considered to be "passing standards.") This, of course, is not always clearly defined. So most coaches assume the judges fall back on what they've always learn is the passing standard -- whatever the kids do, the adults do too.

I guess my opinion is that...it's complicated!!! And that particular individual who thinks it's considered to be dumbing down -- I doubt he's seeing the whole picture! But that's just me...

And while we're at it... how many judges out there are honoring the allowance of "optional to have short two-foot prior to stepping forward" or "cross-over before stepping forward is optional" on the existing alt-3's move? (Read the Adult MIF Comparison Chart: http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultMIFComp.pdf) Are the new proposed two moves any easier than even the watered down one alt 3's move given those two allowances?

Just food for thought...

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

True, and the Pre-Juv test is essentially the Silver test........which is why a few of us think it should eventually be changed.

While I get the point here, I have to share a true story of what I witnessed while preparing for the Pre Bronze MIF ( for those that don't know the full story my coach would not allow me to grandfather the adult moves)

This was a exchange on the ice with my coach while I was watching a 8 year old girl doing the Alternating three's

Me: "Jill, her alternating threes make me cry!"
Jill: "Terri, you have something that X skater doesn't- the hips!"

And that is the reason that we have a exception in the rules. On the other side of the coin, one of the kids I skate with is off the ice with a stress fracture in her back. Makes me wonder if there should be more limits on what the kids can do element wise, since so many kids are getting hurt!

You guys are just lucky to have an adult test track at all - we don't! You take the standard tests, whether you are 54 (like my husband, who is testing his Level 3 Dance Moves on Tuesday, we hope - and he's not the oldest skater I've seen take AND pass that test!), or 15!

Okay, some of the judges are slightly more lenient to the adults, but I hear horror stories of those who aren't....

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

The Pre-Juvenile tests were added in 1994 along with Pre-Prelimliminary tests and Moves. There are many, many adults who started skating long before that. Eventually, yes it probably will be changed. But until then, I don't see the harm of letting skaters who have passed Juvenile choose Silver or Gold.

To answer jazzpants's question - no, the judges don't! In fact, no one has really told the judges that there are "adult standards". Rant: I find the whole thing ridiculous - the adult committee of the USFSA comes up with guidelines, and they never get officially required of judges or shown to anyone unless a judge or test chair goes out of their way. In any case, my understanding is that it was/is optional for judges to follow them.

But to get to the subject of alt 3's: the Pre-Bronze test is supposed to be the equivalent of the Pre-prelim test in that it's an encouragement test - it's supposed to measure basic skills of skating. Alt 3's are not basic - that's why they're on the Prelim MIF test and not Pre-pre. Removing the 3's does not mean that the Pre-Bronze test is dumbed down - does everyone remember learning BI edges? What is does do is make the test appropriate for a beginning level adult skater.

Originally, I know the plan was to move the alt 3's to the Bronze test. I assume that another issue that came up in USFSA meetings was the adult body/strength/flexibility issue that skaternum and Terri mentioned. The fact is, doing those 3's on that pattern requires a lot of turnout as well as quick twisting/transition of the body. Unless adults come to skating having done dance or gymnastics as children, that movement and turnout is very hard to achieve. Why discourage people from an adult sport b/c they can't do what 5-year-olds can? That's not to say that adults can't achieve great turnout or pass all the standard track moves tests, but as vesperholly said, different people have different wants/needs. The adult track shouldn't force people to meet standard track skill levels if that's not someone's goal (by choice or necessity).

By the way, did everyone see the new 3-turn pattern that will be required on the Pre-Bronze test (follow the link to the USFSA report and there's a link in the Pre-Bronze moves listing that shows a diagram). Obviously, there is recognition of the need to learn 3-turn checking - both this pattern and the waltz 8 will accomplish that. I think the key here is that the moves needed to teach adults certain skills are not necessarily (and don't need to be) the same moves that teach the kids those skills, for a variety of reasons.

Yes I have noticed this, too (Rant, Rant) -- I even spoke with one of the judges prior to a friend's taking of this test -- I knew that she put her foot down on her alternating 3s and pointed out to the judge beforehand that very place in that outline where the adult standards were written (I tried to head her off at the pass, so to speak...). The judge just looked at me like I was a nutcase, turned out she single-paneled my friend's test, my friend put her foot down and VIOLA -- flunked the test.

ARRRRGGGHHH!!

2nd RANT -- I did figures as a kid and those alt 3s are NOTHING like the 3s to center on the 1st figure test -- the check and turn are so much quicker -- anyway, this will most likely be a moot point since they are going to get rid of them at least for adults, but IMHO no one should have to do this move, at least not doing them on an actual LOBE (another rant, which I won't go into).

Thanks for directing us to this -- I like this move. Maybe I will start working on it. It seems a good lead-up to power-threes, with the turn forward, etc. I'm glad they are considering the adult skater more just in general. We are not just grown up little kids! (We're not??)

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Overall, neither to I. It will certainly never have an impact on me either way, since I'm in Class III. Being that it was 10 years ago, I can see it making a difference to some Class I skaters, however.

Well, I think the alt threes should have been moved to the Bronze test because they are definitely too hard for pre-bronze IMO, but I don't see the argument that adults would have a harder time to learn them than kids. For some moves yes definitely, but not this one. Adults have more control over their bodies and awareness of it than kids. Kids struggle to learn it cause they throw themselves into the move, and the control takes a long time. Those alt 3s require zero turnout, I don't see where turnout comes into play at all so long as you keep the foot behind the other leg, where it's supposed to be, and not wide-stepping/swinging. And yeah they require quickness and twisting, but so do many other patterns on tests so unless you take them all out there's no point in completely removing the most basic one. I think if this gets passed that it will be a great loss to adult skating, this move is so important to master. So what if it takes a long time? I totally understand about limited funds and ice time, but even if you get rid of one move, the other ones will take just as long (if not longer, because learning the back three pattern without mastering the forward one first will be a nightmare for most). It's one of those sports that takes a long time, most kids spend 10 years testing through the entire system, especially if they are competing. There are way fewer adult tests, I don't think it's wrong to expect people to spend a long time on each, otherwise what is the point of the test structure, if when there is a conscensus that a certain move is too hard, it is removed? Many adults of all ages and fitness levels have already passed it, so clearly it is more than doable. I do agree fully that it should be moved to a higher test, but I don't think it should be removed.

Just my unsolicited thoughts from the outside of the situation.

As I have said on the Usenet group - and been thoroughly jumped on, for my pains! - we don't have the Waltz 8 in this country, it's unknown, but we do have alternating 3s. And our alternating 3s are, dare I say it, harder than yours since we are required to do a whole lap of the ice - with runs or crossovers round the end - of FO3s. The FI3s do have a back crossover between them, but that doesn't actually make them easier, since every lobe has to be approximately the same size.

Now, I'm not saying I can do either move to passing standard - I certainly can't for this country - but I do find the alternating 3s a lot easier than the waltz 8, which I can't seem to get to grips with at all! And I have almost lost the toe-tap - my problem is that they are still far too small. And anyway, right now I'm not testing Field Moves, only Dance Moves.

Plus you are all dead lucky to have adult tests - we don't; you test the regular track or not at all, certainly for the first six levels.

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

It might be less confusing if our system were that way too.

I, too, wish they'd move the alt. 3's to bronze, not get rid of them altogether. They're too hard for a pre-bronze skater, but I do think they're valuable.

My personal opinion is that skaters (of all ages) struggle w/ these forever because many coaches don't know how to properly teach how to do them. I'll probably get flamed for this, but I've observed it a few times. And I will say it's not necessarily the coach's fault; many of the coaches have never actually done these moves themselves when they were testing.

My opinion: if you're struggling with these, find a really good ice dance coach & take some lessons with them on this move; they can give you exercises to do which will teach your body how to check the turn & strengthen the muscles needed for the control. Many freestyle coaches just don't have the knowledge of the ga--ZILLION exercises we dancers are given to learn the edge & turn control that we need!

Your other choice is to find a coach who has done and taught figures. Our coach will make you learn the 3's to center if you are having issues with the alternating threes. If you can do 3's to center, even not to figure passing standard, but at least can DO them, you'll find the alternating threes much easier.

[QUOTE=fadedstardust]Well, I think the alt threes should have been moved to the Bronze test because they are definitely too hard for pre-bronze IMO, but I don't see the argument that adults would have a harder time to learn them than kids. For some moves yes definitely, but not this one. Adults have more control over their bodies and awareness of it than kids. Kids struggle to learn it cause they throw themselves into the move, and the control takes a long time. Those alt 3s require zero turnout, I don't see where turnout comes into play at all so long as you keep the foot behind the other leg, where it's supposed to be, and not wide-stepping/swinging. And yeah they require quickness and twisting, but so do many other patterns on tests so unless you take them all out there's no point in completely removing the most basic one. . . . There are way fewer adult tests, I don't think it's wrong to expect people to spend a long time on each, otherwise what is the point of the test structure, if when there is a conscensus that a certain move is too hard, it is removed? QUOTE]

I agree that kids have no big advantage over adults when it comes to MIF, other than flexibility, i.e., the spirals. So I don't really know why adults have to be judged more leniently, and why we adults are no longer expected to have "power" in our stroking. (Huh? Are our muscles weaker than the kids'? I don't think so.) But I do believe in having appropriate MIF for the level of the skater, and I think the new MIF changes will bring us closer to that.

Uh, in the choctaw turn in the transition at the line with the FO 3's? It doesn't matter where your free foot is or how close it is to your body. You still have to step from a BI edge to a FO edge on your other foot, which requires your free hip to face outward while your skating foot is still on a BI edge until you step forward.

Another interesting thing to ponder is the Pre-Bronze FS test. I think that definitely ought to be reevaluated. Obviously, the test was developed before the adult moves tests and I assume the goal was to have adults demonstrate some form of MIF skill by requiring the crossovers. But now that we have adult moves requirements (and it looks like the crossover pattern is staying on the Pre-Bronze test), I really think the FS test should mirror the Pre-Prelim FS test. Not that I'm complaining, but when I tested, I thought it was a bit silly to be doing a harder crossover pattern in my moves test and an easier crossover pattern in my FS test a half hour later, in front of the same judges who'd already passed me on the harder one.

I know of a big advantage - time. What adult do you know that can train for 12+ hours like these kids can? Kids go to school, skate and do homework. No job, no family to pay for and take care of, no house to pay for and take care of.

My coach constantly has to remind me of this when I get frustrated with my lack of progress. When you can only skate for 3-5 hours a week, and many adults less than that, it's unrealistic to expect them to reach kids' standards. This is why there were adults fighting moves being mandatory as well. There are adults who want to reach those standards, and more power to them. But many adults simply cannot, and it's unfair to expect them to abide by the same rules in an unlevel playing field.

I have to agree with Vesper here. I've finally faced the fact that in order to get the Bronze MIF and FS passed, I'll have to take a break from competition for awhile. So, after the New Year's Invitational ( CRC might be a crapshoot for me) I'll be doing just that!

I've (unintentially) done just that too! With the exception of Skate SF, I've been working on that #$@% Bronze Moves like... FOREVER!!! (About 2.5 years...) And of course, with my injuries back in March and now my lost purple skates and all...

The worst part is that I was VERY, VERY close to taking the darn test and passing with each incident (and of course, there was my failed attempt in August.) The Skating Gods up there seems to NOT want me to pass Bronze Moves and FS and go to AN for some reason...

If there are any advantages, my skating is much faster this year than last year... and I'm "looked" lot more confident this year on the ice compared to last year.

__________________
Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

But that's not really true about the time thing- because kids have more than twice as many tests to pass as you guys do, so it more than equals out. It's not like you have to pass a certain test by a certain time, you can take your time at it. This is (as I'm sure you know) a very difficult and involved sport, and if you don't have that much time to devote to it then that's understandable but then you will just progress slower- that doesn't mean important moves should be taken off because they take "too long" to pass. It's not like you HAVE to test to skate, you just have to test to compete, and if your moves aren't good enough because you don't have time to practice then it's probably better off that you wait until you've had the time to progress, however long that takes, before you do compete. The time spent on choreographing a program could be spent on moves- I know it's not as fun but the fact of the matter is that they should be learned first, especially the basic ones. Just like everything in life, this sport takes a lot of annoying and mind numbing "beginner" work before you can get to the fun stuff. I don't see why that should be different for adults, surely they are the first to understand the laws of learning something new.

Meanwhile I know plenty of adults who are retired (some who have even quit their jobs) to do skating full time, and it's not fair that they don't have anything challenging to work on anymore in the adult track because the entire track was lowered and watered-down to accomodate people who can't devote enough time to it. It's the same with the kids- some kids can't AFFORD daily practice, some only do it weekly, and they'll progress slower. But they don't get to skip stuff because of that fact. As long as adults are capable of passing these, I don't think the time issue should really be a reason to drop them.