not at this point in time. Many nations don't even have adult competitions. In Canada, we just got an adult national 3 years ago. It's really only the US that has big numbers

Does anyone have statistics for Oberstdorf.

I know that the 2006 Mountain Cup had 130 skaters from 15 countries.

Was O'dorf bigger, about the same, or smaller. I know that looking at some of the results, there were quite a few Germans there, that I've not seen at the MC or Vana Tallinn Trophy in years past.

Rob

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I wish US would host an International competition

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How many countries would have to send how many people before we would feel like it was a real adult worlds? Is it about a particular sanction, numbers, a title or a feeling? IF the ISU declared a 'Worlds' for this coming year and participation was roughly the same numbers and make up as current international competitions, would it 'be' real or not?

That's a tough question, but as far as I'm concerned, you'll never get all of the top skaters from each country unless the member countries subsidize the travel expenses for their skaters to ensure that they can participate. I know I'm probably a little extreme, but for me, that's what it would take for it to be a legitimate World Championship. I realize none of our trips to Adult Nationals are subsidized, but it's just a whole different level of expense to travel overseas for a week.

The Peach Classic is an international competiton. We've had skaters from England, Estonia, Canada, and Czech Republic.

The problem we have is that in Europe, most rinks are only open during hockey season. So, not many Europeans have ice before Sept 1.

That is why the Mountain Cup, Vana Tallinn Trophy and ISU International are all held at the end of May, beginning of June. The competitions are the last thing to be held on that ice until the next hockey season starts.

Rob

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I thought Burgoyne was the North American Invitational, meaning skaters from Mexico and Canada could participate. That's international!

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US Figure Skating and SkateCanada have an agreement that allows skaters to skate in the other's sanctioned events, except for qualifying events (Regionals, Sectionals, Nationals, AN, etc.)

Rob

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From what I'm reading from the others, it came off that it's not a matter of how many countries, but whether there is a "qualifying" round from all the different countries. Given that assumption, I don't think it's gonna happen any time soon... b/c there are a lot of other countries aren't as much into the Adult Skating thing as say the US is. That needs to happen in order to have an "Adult Worlds" competition.

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Doubletoe, it doesn't have to be the top skaters from every country. We don't have to exactly mirror the elite structure to have something that is international and satisfying to everyone--a competition that we can call OUR "Worlds."

Hercules,

Here's what I think: you only need three countries to enter, they compete, and you call it the "Worlds." It's a competition and you hand out Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals on the podium. That's all you need, and from this point on it continues to grow. Everything has to start from the beginning. Some one even posted that the real "Worlds" began very small--something like three countries competitng in figures and then it grew from there.

Mountain Cup and Oberstorf already has the numbers, pick one, ask Cinquenta to wave his magic bejeweled septar over it, and it's the Adult Worlds. End of story. If we want it we just ask for it...that's how Obersdtorf happened: a group of skaters wanted an ISU sanctioned competition--they asked for it and got it.

I disagree that the Adult Skating community can just make up its own definition of "Worlds." Doing so would be a real blow to the integrity of adult skating, in my opinion. I know many of us are concerned that adult skating isn't taken as seriously as it should be. Don't you think that b**tardizing an accepted athletic term just makes us look frivolous? I think that we need to follow the model of a real Worlds.

Jazzpants is right on the money. The distinction that makes something a "Worlds" isn't how many people or how many countries -- it's about National Governing Bodies (such as Skate Canada or the USFSA) selecting skaters through some merit-based process to represent their country.

If we want a real Worlds, step 1 is to help skaters in non-US countries develop their programs.

You are overlooking the fact that people assume that the winner of any competition called "Worlds" is going to hold the title of "World Champion." That's where I have an issue with your argument. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one feeling a little resentful if someone who was an average skater won "Worlds" as a result of the utter lack of qualifying criteria and low turnout (due to the cost and time commitment). Calling that person the "World Champion" would be a gross misrepresentation, and there is no sense in calling it "Worlds" if the winners aren't going to be the legitimate world champions--which they won't be.

Before any of this there needs to be an agreed upon set of qualifiers for the levels. What tests in each country are equal to each other? Once you set a standard for each level you can then see if those countries have qualifying events that allow for a merit based selection process through which the top adult skaters would compete. Getting skater's to agree upon the levels would be first and the ISU would have to do that. Also, if I am not mistaken getting this ISU sanctioned event was not a matter of waving a wand, it took a lot of work from the working group and Phyllis Howard to get it going, it will gain speed only as more people go to the event.

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Dear Skaternum

I agree with you the "it's about National Governing Bodies...selecting skaters through some merit based process to represent their country." This would make the ideal Adult Worlds.

The reason I asked the questions is that I start to get the impression that for a good many adult skaters, this wouldn't quite be good enough. The number of skaters and their representative countries would never represent a sufficient cross section of the world.

This is precisely what I was hinting at in an earlier post and you picked up on it

"If we want real Worlds, step 1 is to help skaters in non-US countries develop their programs".

You know, this could just about apply to 'Real Worlds' as well. The most prominent skating dynasties as they exist now are: United States, Canada, Russia, France, China and Japan. We could quibble about a few others but the point is that the number is SMALL, even in real Worlds. In the coming decades, one or two of these may diminish and a few may rise up. Add to this a point that Johnny Weir pointed out in his interview article I just read in the USFSA mag: He mentioned a skater that out performed many others but was not favored and did not place well because they didn't fit into one of the existing dynasties [my paraphrase]. If we established the participation of say 10 countries, would it really be a fair playing field from day one?

My point here is that all of us adult skaters will be dead and gone before we reach the ideal standards for a real Adult Worlds, and this against a backdrop of the Real Worlds that has it's own similar issues that are still taking generations to work out.

I don't disagree with you in theory, but if we wait for all the moon and stars to line up we may as well move onto something else. Perhaps the best way to develop Adult programs in other countries would be to put something out there and watch the other countries gradually rise to the occaision as they have in Real Worlds, such as China did with their pairs program and now Japan with their ladies and upcoming men. Not many years ago, they were hardly on the map at all. So what if it's US dominated now? 10 years from now, maybe it won't be. It might seem like we would only be promoting a big favor for ourselves if an Adult Worlds happened, but I think this might be the best way we could accelerate Adult skating throughout the rest of the world.

What about Oberstdorf? Doesn't that fulfill the same function of inclusion? Maybe, but if the majority of our skaters don't regard it as a true World competition, perhaps other countries may not regard it that way either. This could possibly cut both ways. Just a thought.

Bingo. That's the minimum that has to be done to make it meaningful.

First of all, the qualifying structure for our own Adult Nationals certainly doesn't mirror the elite Nationals. Case in point, the botch job just recently done on the qualify structure for the new Championship Pairs event, which is not a "real" qualifier at all, but, rather just an open door.

Okay, that being said, why is it so imperative that an Adult Wolrds exactly mirrors the real Worlds?

And since when is America the Skating Police who has to develope skating programs in other countries before we can have a World competition among the countries who have developed their skating programs, which is apparent by skaters who are already competing and representing several countries at Mountain Cup and Obersdtorf?

The majority of our own Adult Nationals is an "open" competition, so why can't a Worlds, at least at it's inception be an "open" competition. It doesn't water down anything. If you call it the Worlds more people get excited about it and want to compete in it, and try to set aside the funds to go if they are able, and the thing begins to grow on it's own accord, and sometime in the future there are enough countries with "developed programs" that you can actually put together a "qualifying" World competition. However, it has to begin somewhere and some point. Which is why the "qualifier" for the Pairs Championship is not a botch job, I stand corrected...I just made a point that everything has to start somewhere, so I take that back. Wouldn't it be nice if we could see this happen in our life time? I for one would really be excited to see this come about to complete the structure: Adult Sectionals, Nationals, Worlds...and then I'm going to come back to this forum and post a new thread: Should the Adult Skating Community have an Olympics? The Special Olympics have an Olympics, so why don't we?

The Special Olympics come to think of it is a good example of people not getting all twisted up over nomenclature and finding a way to give meaning to what they do and enjoy doing. You can call something, something without it having to mirror the exact Olympics. Ciquenta has the power to sanction an event on the international stage, with or without his magic wand. I never meant to imply that it won't take hard work. Obersdtorf or Mountain Cup is already totally poised to become a VARIATION of a World competition for Adult Skaters that could have the potential of carrying the same prestigue (sp?) and excitement for us as the real Worlds does for the elites.

What I don't understand is this incredible need to make MC and O'dorf something they were not meant to be and why you don't seem to want to listen to anyone else but ram your thinking on what it should be down everyone else's throat. Again and again people say ...it's not adult worlds, again and again you don't listen..fine, when you go, it can be your worlds. Your skating is what you make of it...if you have to inflate it to that level to make you feel good then..go ahead.

I've done the event twice, I've done MC twice, I am nothing more than an adult skater who is lucky enough to have the means to attend these events. I am not a skater who believes because I came in 2nd or 3rd at these events I have done anything better than anyone else. I have only gone out and performed my program and enjoyed myself while hanging out with my friends. My skating brings me joy and satisfaction, I am not a winner, I am not loser, I am an adult skater who enjoys the sport for what it is. I do not skate for titles..if you do,-- then so be it.

The ISU event is not a "world" event, neither is Mountain Cup, they are however great events, they represent people who love the sport, and come from all over the world. A championship event by it's very defintion must have a qualifying round or be decided, based on merit. Your insistance that it just be a free-for-all is just that, your pushing your views down the throats of us all. Adult skating will continue to grow and evolve, maybe it will follow standard structure maybe it will not, no one can say.

As for the special olympics they do have qualifying for skating, then they go on to the next level. We have at my rink the men's special olympic skating champion, named Paul who is 41 and can land an axel, he is and will always be a champion regardless of the title. While he is proud of the medal, he is more proud of the fact that he continues to skate.

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Special Olympics has a very complex qualifying criteria. Trust me, weeding through all the documentation is a task in itself.

I won't ever call the ISU competition "worlds" because it is not!!!! It is an international competition.

In order for it to be a world competition, there needs to be some form of criteria. Right now anyone can pick their level. Heck, if I thought in my head it was "worlds" I'd place myself in the lowest level to get a medal. Maybe selfish, but I bet a slew of people would do it to.

Perhaps having qualifying "championship events" might lead to some sort of World event or some form. However, that requires qualification.

Every sport that has a world championship has qualification for it. You can't just show up

If it makes you feel better call it "Variations of Adult Worlds" but in all honesty (and exactly what the organizing committee says) its an ISU adult international event.

Edited to add: Special Olympics IS an Olympics because they have MANY sports. Figure skating is just one part. There are the SENIOR olympics. Perhaps when you get old enough to participate there might be figure skating Again, youi can't have an Olympics for 1 sport.

It's not about making things fair and leveling a playing field for every country. That's not what I'm talking about. It's a lot simpler than that. Every country that particpates in Worlds has to have some mechanism for selecting its skaters. Most countries' adult skating programs aren't developed to that point. So these countries need to be developed: develop an adult test structure, develop Nationals or some other selection criteria, etc.

OK, I'd really like to hear what the rest of the world thinks of this and not just the Americans. I know there are quite a few people who post here from around the globe. What do you think? Would you like to see a santioned Adult Worlds? Even if your country isn't presently in a position to send official competitors (USA isn't either), is this something that you and your countries adult skaters would aspire to? I'd also be curious to hear your impressions of how adult skaters in your country are currently organizing.

Ok I'm not an American and I think everyone on both sides of the debate is getting a bit hung up on nomenclature here. So what if some people want to call anything they like 'Adult world's' (the clue is in the word 'Adult' - which generally implies that there will competitions for various levels unlike the real skating 'world Championship' where there is only one level - the highest!) After all isn't it the Americans that play 'World' Series baseball when what they really mean is 'American' baseball! (ok so there may be one or two other teams in it - are there? But basically it's America vs, well,.... America.

If you have an 'Adult world's' where only the best adult skaters from each country go to compete, that appears to completely negate most of what most adult skaters seem to want, i.e the chance to compete at their level against others of their level. Obviously those who started as adults particularly in their 30's, 40's and above are never going to be competitive at a high level so an Adult World's (in the sense all those against calling Oberstdorf or whatever an Adult Worlds, seem to mean) is pointless.

So why not call it 'Adult Worlds Open' or something (which those who like to, can shorten to Adult World's) and the main problem then is trying to equate the various test or whatever structures between those countries from which the competitors come.

Few countries besides America will ever have enough skaters to make qualifying sectionals/regionals etc necessary or reasonable so American demands for 'qualifying' are pointless for most other countries.

None of the national governing bodies are ever likely to put up money to help adult skaters so even if you have qualifying rounds it will still be limited to those who can afford to go - just as AN in America is limited to those who can afford to go, no matter how good at skating they may be.

The only sensible pre-qualification you could have in the UK at the moment is to require that those wishing to go to an Adult World's must have participated in the preceding British Adult Championships. Those championships currently have no qualifying for Free skating and the only qualification in dance is to have participated in at least one open in the preceding season.

As for those who would be peeved if some lesser skater than themselves could afford to go to Adult Worlds and then called themselves 'World Champion' - well how different is that from now, when those who go and compete abroad can claim to have 'International gold medals' or whatever. Sounds good but we all know what it means and those outside the skating world are unlikely to be interested anyway! and I would hope that whoever won would only be calling themselves 'World Champion' with tongue firmly in cheek!

In fact at one of the British Championships, one class was basically contested between two skaters from the same rink (plus one other real beginner) so really it was much the same as if it had been a closed club competition but the winner still took great delight and pride in being 'British Champion' of the over 50's at a low level.

We all know what it really means but it's made her happy and why not.

BatikatII = voice of reason.

Thanks you Batik for saying everything that I was trying to say, but in a very coherant way.

I think that's a good qualifier for Adults, that is if you attended and competed in your countries Nationals that year, you qualify to compete in the Adult World Open. Maybe as it grows, in several years, and more countries attend then the "qualifier" can become tighter; let's say the top 5 in every event at their Adult Nationals qualifies to go...so on and so forth.

Just a note: To the best of my knowlege (and experience) I've never heard the adults refer to the Gold medalists in any given AN competition as "National Champions." It's alway, so and so, took the Gold Medal in their event. To refer to the Special Olympics Gold Medalist in any event as the "Olympic Champion" is rediculous and really not fair to the other Special Olympic athletes. Again, the elite competitions and structure is unique-- nothing within the Adult Skating community, such as Adult Nationals, or the Special Olympics organization mirrors it exactly. I think we all agree that our bottom line is that anyone who gets out there as an adult and tries to do this stuff is a winner. The "qualifier" has to be in an appropriate proportion to who we are and what we are able to do. Considering who we are and what we are able to do I would very much like to see an Adult Worlds someday, which is not an ego-based desire, but rather a desire to bring more cache to the entire sport of Adult Figure Skating.

For those who are very protective, for whatever reason, that Oberstdorf and Mountain Cup just stay as they are, I have no problem with seeing another venue created, which would be an Adult Worlds, and would travel around each year, from local-to-local, just as the Adult Nationals does in the United States.

Yes, I understand how much work this would entail, but right now we are just discussing whether, or not it is "theoretically" possible, and if there would be interest in it around the world.

Thank you Batik for responding, and I would really really love if other skaters reading this thread from other countries outside the US would weigh in on this, too.

Yup! I think it's silly to expect that. I mean how many people on this board can afford to go globtrotting to different continents on an annual basis anyway? I mean, my trips to my in-laws each Christmas is already bad enough and that's NOT including room and board (b/c we stay at the in-laws...)

They are some adults who are, sad to say, has more "elitist" (for lack of a better term I could think of for someone in the US East Coast whose body clock is still on US West Coast time...but THERE, I said it!!! ) views about how adult competitions should be. I mean, let's face it! We're never going to the Olympics, or get endorsement deals from McD's or Nike. Chances are very good at the end of the day that we're all going back to our normal every jobs! (Outside of the adult skating circles, for instance, no one will every know about my primary coach. Jay certainly doesn't think that someday he would ever be 'rich and famous' either.) I don't see the point of it, frankly.

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It's to early in the process to have an Adult Worlds, or a pretend adult Worlds. I'd rather wait and have it done well then have an event just designated as worlds just for the sake of having it and satisfying egos.

Without the foundation for such an event, the medals/titles would be pretty hollow.

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That sounds reasonable; I wouldn't have a problem with that. I just want to avoid the use of the term, "World Championship", which is misleading. If those who want to be able to call it "Worlds" don't mind that the gold medal doesn't mean a world championship, why do they mind that it isn't called "Worlds"? That's what's confusing to me.

[QUOTE=BatikatII] If everyone were able to keep a tongue-in-cheek perspective on it, I'd have no problem with it, either. Unfortunately, there are a few adult skaters who take this stuff a little too seriously and would not hesitate to make the "World Champion" claim (which is a false claim) as opposed to simply claiming an international gold medal (which is a true claim). You can say it wouldn't happen, but I know for a fact that it already has, in spite of the fact that the Oberstdorf competition is not even officially called "Adult Worlds." Those outside of the skating community would have no reason not to believe the "World Champion" claim, and even within the skating community, most people aren't "in the know" on the details of adult competitions, so a good percentage would buy the claim as well. I can laugh off the ever-popular "sandbagger" issue and I would be the first to welcome our Pre-Bronze friends to Adult Nationals, but for some reason, giving anyone an opening to claim to be "Adult World Champion" without a more legitimate process just offends my sense of fairness.