Thanks for the compliment, lovepairs. But at the risk of sounding persnickity, I'm a little miffed at the admonition. I'm perfectly confident in my abilities on the ice. That's the whole point I was trying to make. I don't need a bunch of sunshine positivism to motivate me, and I'm not afraid to acknowledge my physical limitations. I've spent most of my life either dancing or skating, and I'm more in tune with my body than most people, I think. What I see as realism, you see as defeatism. What I see as delusion, you see as positivism. Guess we just don't see things the same way.

I started skating around age 40. I was very competitive in another sport in my teens and twenties. In that sport I will never be anywhere near that competitive level again and it pains me. Pains me so that I don't even participate in that sport recreationally. If people ask me to go play, I say that I don't know how, sorry. If I can't go full out, I don't want it and have completely walked away. I can understand how Rusty Blades feels, because if I went back to that sport and my brain image didn't match what my body was doing, I'd be hugely angry.

I bring that mental focus and years of training to skating but am well aware of the limitations of my body. There are injuries that prevent me from doing some things. No, let me restate that. I have injuries and damaged joints that do not stop me from doing everything, but if I choose to throw myself around the rink in search of an axel, I could probably do an axel, but it would be at the expense of further injury. So, I don't believe that I will do an axel because I have chosen another path that will permit me to skate until I'm dead instead of being in a wheelchair. If a coach said that I didn't have the body of a 16 year old, I'd totally agree, because I don't. But for a woman nudging up to 50, I'm pretty good.

I also can't go to keg parties and drink all night then go to school the next day like I did at age 18. Somehow that ability has disappeared also.

I'd be interested to look at some stats on age and skating skills. Like, the record age for guys and girls for doing triples. That is, oldest guy that does triples, and oldest girl that does triples. Also, oldest guy and oldest girl that does quads.

Doing a jump at a certain age is very different from learning that jump for the first time at that age, KWIM? I suspect that the number of injuries a skater tends to accumulate on the way to mastering a jump is what really takes its toll on the body, rather than continuing to do a jump you already mastered at a younger age.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

That's definitely true. With aging, and accumulated wear and tear, there definitely will be a stage where things take a turn. It's important to know when to stop pushing too hard on the body. Yah....injuries and recovery time is a problem here.

I don't know whether I really ought to put my two cents in or not, but here it goes:

After doing some pond skating when I was a kid, I got into this along with my son about 2 1/2 years ago after 20+ years off the ice. I'm now 45. My main motivations were to find something that would be fun and count as exercise, and to spend more time with #2 son. Viewed in that light, the whole thing has been a success beyond my wildest dreams. I'm down nearly 60 pounds, and have been holding that weight for the better part of a year now. That puts me in the normal range after being overweight for many years, and at the lowest sustained weight I've been at since I was in high school. #2 son and I have spent a lot of time together, and he's not embarrassed to be on the ice with me.

I'm probably in better shape now that I have ever been as an adult. Skating has given me legs that also allow me to view 60 miles on a bicycle at 15 mph as no big deal.

I don't progress at the rate that I'd like to in skating (who does?), but I can see that I am progressing. This week I'm a bit frustrated as I'm working on the pre-bronze moves seriously again, but my coach is pushing as she should be. I have revised my goals several times already in the 2+ years I've been at this, and I am now reluctant to attempt to guess where the limits of progress might be found. I know they are there, but I also know that they are somewhere beyond where I am now. (Of course, on one level deciding to aim at dance rather than freestyle is an acceptance of a limitation.)

So, does that put me in the defeatist camp, or the delusional?

Rob Dean

Rob Dean, Dance can be just as dangerous as freestyle (if not more)!!! Do you see how close those skates are to each other? And how quick those moves have to be? I cringe when my dance coach asks me to do a move quicker and with neater (i.e. closer) feet. Then she pairs us up

So, is that defeatist? No. Delusional? No. Not in my book.

Congrats on your weight loss and increase in endurance!!!!

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

**deeply offended dancer here**

Dance done to a high level is very physically demanding, just in a different way than freestyle. You don't have the pounding on your body from jump landings. But the strength & flexibility required to hold a deep knee bend with nice extension on deep edges at insane speed is surprising. I've also taken much worse falls in dance than in freestyle.

I agree with Rob, the constant pounding that your back and the rest of your body takes every time you land a jump not the mention fall, is going to wear your body down a lot more quickly than the odd nasty fall taken in dance, I do both and I know which causes my body the most grief, after being signed off work, I have been advised that it might be a good idea to stick to the dance, as its still wonderful for stamina, ok its still dangerous but in the long term far less wearing on a 57 year old bod. Can't promise I will take the advice though.

I don't know about that....the worst fall I had was in ice dance class doing a back progressive!!!!!

I caught the heel of my blade and fell backwards-flat on my sacrum and shoulders; narrowly missed hitting my head. You could hear the "thunk" all over the rink! I saw stars and it knocked my breath out. I lay on the ice trying to move and catch my breath for what seemed like forever.

After several trips to the chiropractor I was ok but it was a long time before I got the courage to do another back progressive; and I had to do it holding on...the fear monster had me in it's grip! I'm ok with them now, but that accident is always in the back of my mind and I think it still holds me back a bit.

I've fallen doing flips and other jumps and they don't frighten me re-doing them as much as that.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Oooohhh Yeeeaahhh. . . My worst falls have been catching my blades while trying to do steps or edges, so I have the utmost respect for ice dancers! They risk not only catching their blades in the ice but catching their blades on someone else's blades! Yikes!

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

I think what my teacher/coach said to me the other day fits--

He was saying that eventually I'd pull off an axel-- and I just made a face, since I know that I have a LOOOOOOOONG LONG way to go before I get to that point. And then he said (paraphrased, since I can't remember his exact words):

"Nothing is impossible... well, you just need reality. I mean, I want a porche and I want the space shuttle. I won't be getting a space shuttle, but I can get the porche. An axel for you is like that. You will probably never get a triple axel, starting at this age, but you will get the axel."

And you know what? I thought that was a great approach. As adults, we have our limitations, and maybe we'll never be like the elite kids, but the skills that we can aquire are still incredible if you really look at what we face.

Seriously, to people who can't even keep upright on skates and clutch the walls during public sessions, crossovers and 3-turns and 2-footed spins must look totally impossible. Whereas, they've finally started going from being Porches to Hyundais for me and most of us

I sympathize with both samba and the ice dancers. I've limited my jumping practice and don't do off ice jumps practices just so I don't screw up my lower back. Just not enough (if any) cushion left on the lower back.

But my worst falls are all from doing edge and moves work. (Okay, mostly the collisions with other skaters... ) And I'm pretty sure my ice dancer guy has gone thru his share of nasty falls and crashes on the ice.

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I'm on the fence on worst falls... Probably the worst fall i've ever had was from nearly a standstill and tripping over a blade trying to hockey stop. That was when i was in learn to skate classes and i broke my ankle then. That was a freak fall where i injured myself badly because i tried to *stop myself* from falling. It was a big lesson - if you're gonna fall, FALL. don't try to stop it or else you'll injure yourself even more.

Since i've started seriously figure skating ( and by serious i mean taking private lessons and showing up at freestyle practice several times a week ) I have never broken anything, and even working on double jumps I feel are much safer than working on new moves really fast without any control. The stronger my edge control gets, the easier and more secure i feel when i launch myself into jumps at fast speeds. people think i'm nuts for spending hundreds of hours on moves in the field, but when you're fully grown and not a stick thin teen, i know i need all the help i can get controlling the edges so that i can move my body around safely. You know, it's just Newton's law - Force = mass x acceleration. The more mass you have the more force it takes to control (+/-) the accleration.

If we're talking about worst bruise, i'd say the worst bruises and falls are from the unexpected edges getting caught falls, when you're tired or least expecting it and suddently go down. Things like clicking your blades on crossovers at high speed or doing brackets and not being over your hip will throw you to the ice with almost no notice. I've had a few bad falls from learning jumps and spins when i first started working on them but as always that's because i forgot to do what my coach was telling me to do.

These days if i feel like i'm going to fall, i just let go and i don't care what people think. so what. you mentally "let go" on the way down then get up as fast as you can. it just hurts less.

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Keep Evolving. "From this moment forward, every voice that told you - You Can't - , has been silenced." - Freedom Writers

No disagreement on that; although I'm not there yet (which was also a topic of last night's lesson). I also recognize that dance is scarcely risk free, but, for me, the fear associated with those risks is more manageable than the fear associated with jumping. So, while I didn't intend to be offensive, at least for me, it is an acceptance of some limits.

Rob

The other people watching you fall usually have short memories anyway. And most of them have fallen before...probably many times themselves, so that's why they forget, or hardly make anything of it, because it's not uncommon or unusual for people to fall sometimes.

With regards to falls - it's definitely the ones that take you by surprise like when you lose an edge or toepick yourself that are the worst - I guess it's because the fall is unexpected so you tense up.

I must have fallen about 7 times on Monday (in an hour, which is a big brave thing for me), I was working on flips and loops and view it as a good sign - it was because I was getting some power into the jumps. Yet I didn't really hurt myself at all, it was like I could feel I was off balance, knew I wasn't going to land on my feet and just relaxed.

With regards to limitations - sometimes you can surprise yourself.
When I stepped back on the ice after an 18 year break, I wondered how I ever lifted both feet off the ground, never mind had an Axel!

Yet, somehow, 9 months later I'm doing flips. I doubt whether I'll ever get an Axel again BUT for someone who didn't think she even get singles back, I guess it's not bad.....


S xx

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"

You are so right. As I said before, I have realised that what pushed my buttons about what Dianne's coach said was really about my own fears.

I am coming to accept it is okay to admit that my body can't do what it used to. That I need to work within physical limitations while working to reduce the limitation. It doesn't mean I won't achieve what I want to achieve, just that I have to be sensible about working toward my goals.

I firmly believe in not placing limitations on myself by setting some ultimate goal. I will achieve being the best skater I can be, whatever that ends up being.

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Karen

I skate - therefore I am

Sonic - Did you watch the level 3-5 ladies group (age category 2) at Lee Valley last weekend? My friend who only started learning to skate at age 30 (having never skated before ) landed 2 axels in the warm-up (even if she didn't quite manage it in the competition itself). If you've had an axel before you will definitely be able to get one again. In the men's competition at least one of the guys had an axel that he first acquired in his late 50's and he had the most amazing sit spin ever (and he is over 60 now).

I started at 38 having been on the ice only a couple of times in my life, ever and did dance only for a few years. After switching to Free (compulsory dance bores me rigid unless with a partner and we have no men at our rink) I now have all my singles up to Flip and am working on Lutz and have every intention of one day trying for an axel - despite being overweight and unfit and having back and knee problems! I didn't compete (at adult championships) this year because of a back injury in the summer but last year I won bronze at elementary (level 1 & 2) (35- 50 years). There's no reason why you couldn't achieve axel and doubles - barring injury of course.

Having done both and competed in both, I would have to say ice dance is 'easier' to do than Free although it is hard to do well. They are very different animals but with ice dance you can do the low level dances and enjoy them without necessarily doing them very well, whereas with Free to do even a low level competition you need to have the jumps and it is a lot more scary having to leave the ice with both feet!

I am definitely a much better skater than I was when I was a child - since I never skated as a child! As far as whether you can be a better skater than when you were a chld I guess it all depends how good a skater you were then. If just a recreational skater then there is no doubt you can improve on that as an adult but if you were a kid skater with axels and doubles/triples then coming back many years later it is probably unlikley that you can get back to that same level as you will probably have less time to spend skatig and all sorts of body issues to deal with (flexibility, injury, weight etc). You'll still likely be a much better skater than anyone who did not start as a child (given similar time and training).

for me, I feel Its all academic. By definition, as an adult learner, I'll never know what I could have achieved if i'd started 30 years ago. I have nothing to compare it to, so every achievement is a bonus! My coach treats the adults the same as the kids, she assumes you can achieve anything!

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Level one Field Moves......PASSED 05.06.08
Level one Free dance.....PASSED 02.10.08

GOALS FOR 2009

• Level One Compulsary dances.......PASSED 19.02.09
• Level One Elements.....................PASSED 10.07.09
• Level Two Free dance.................PASSED 19.02.09
• Level One Free...........................
• Level Two compulsory dances.......

Loving it, Loving it, Loving it!!!!!

And why not? I'm not saying I can go out and do an axel tomorrow, but if I really want to accomplish that I can, with time and effort. And so can you. If you don't want to or are setting yourself up to fail in advance that's another story entirely. I don't believe there are any limits that there aren't ways to work past with the right methods and time.

Granted, injuries, how we take care of ourselves, and priorities in life affect things, but I would much rather focus on what's possible if unlikely than the average.

I'm a bit of a hippacrite in that I don't always think as positively as I should, and it's most likely that I never will get an axel, but if I don't it will be because I didn't give it my all...not because I didn't start skating at 5.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I know exactly what you mean. I have a hard time with too much time passing...and a bad habit of thinking all is lost if I miss one time goal...

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve

I had a fantastic coach who moved away, but he never told me anything really negative, and pushed me on certain things, but also had a highly respectible awareness of safety and injury on my behalf. Because of that, i knew he wouldn't push me beyond what was safe for me at the time. That, to me is a bigger concern than any of the other. I still hold him in high regard because of that.

I know exactly what you mean. And if you've skated before, I think that feeling is even worse.

BatikatII - in answer to your post, no, unfortunately I missed the level 3-5 group. You may be right about the axel, but I'm putting that idea 'on ice' ('scuse the pun, lol! ) for a while. For the time being I'm just aiming to get decent single jumps - hopefully get Flip and Loop decent by end of November and start working on Lutz before the end of the year.

S xxx

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There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"

As a lot of guys I used to work with at the bottom rung of the ladder used to say, "work smart, not hard". We all have our issues and limits, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, and some ways are definitely easier. Sometimes the hardest part is conceiving them.

I can't think of many jumps I've ever landed skating that I'd consider hard (as in on the knees or whatever). But I was at a ballet class recently where the instructor was telling the class that they needed to take off and land in a plie (that is, with knees bending both to propel the jump up and to cushion the landing), so that it looked more graceful and was easier on the joints. I realized as some people had a really hard time with this that I've simply never considered not bending to distribute the impact of a jump landing...it's just something I do "naturally" (more likely, something I learned on my own without thinking too much about it).

We all have things that we pick up easily and other things that we're blind to until we really think about it or somebody points them out to us. If something is hurting or too hard, then I'm not saying continue trying the same way endlessly. But I do believe there's always a path to the goal - the tricky part is finding and following it.

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
"What matters is not experience per se but 'effortful study'."
"At first, dreams seem impossible, then improbable, and eventually inevitable" ~ Christopher Reeve