OMG, I'm getting so overwhelmed reading all this ISU-COP requirements.

It's all good though, it makes us a better skater at the end.

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Tim David's Website

No attack here. I agree with you. I'm 33 and get reguarly beaten by women much older than I. I think a lot of posters here may find that they're not going to have as much competition as they think.

Hi, TreSk8sAZ!

As someone who has competed against a couple of young'um like you one year, I'll have to say that the person was TOTALLY RUDE and has POOR SPORTMANSHIP!

Last year I was competing as a Class II against other Class II's and one Class IV lady (Darlin' lady from the UK... she did a kite routine!) and I was the youngest of all the competitors. I got my A** wh***ed at that event and was lucky to have even medal. (3 out of 5.) In fact the women who beaten me told me they're going to Class III (now Class IV) this year! (Both ladies were KEWL. One lady I ran into later on at another rink when I was getting my blade realigned and she was nice. The other lady invited me to join her beginning Synch team at her rink, which I have to politely decline since I have WAAAAY too much on my plate now with my own training!) The year before I was competing in the same event but it was a 19 year old, a 20 year old, and a 44 year old. And I ended up with a SILVER!!! (I beat the 19 year old!!!)

The way I see it now... if I have to compete against (the new) Class I skaters, sure I'll feel a bit insecure and all, but I'll welcome 'ya! Come skate with Auntie Jazzpants!!! We'll have fun at the medal stands with the photographers!!!

Yes, I will admit that it's getting really hard for me to compete with numerous injuries and the "normal wear and tear" becoming more frequent. It just means now I'll have to train smarter so I can limit that frequency now. If MK can do it, why can't I?

I had a feeling vesperholly was gonna piped up here. (Yeah I know! ) Loved the comment on the blog about "Adult Nationals means you're old enough to drink!" (when someone proposed changing the starting age from 21 to 18.)

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I am proof that at 47 years old, you can compete with the 25 year olds. I won Championship Gold Men's against many younger competitors. You just need to practice hard and train to your full potential.

When competing in Championship Gold or Masters you hve to be prepared for anything! Age shouldn't matter. Good skating is recognized at any age! Although more seasoned veterans have things that younger competitors don't have, like better edeges and more advanced choreogrpahy. The new COP should favor the well-rounded skaters. Age will just give them an advantage if they use all the other tools to enhance their program.

I really think that my "experience" gave me an advantage over the young 'uns who all seemd a little nervous and worried about the "old man" in the group!

I thrive on competition and seem to rise to the occassion. I love to compete with the best and hope it holds the event to a higher standard.

Trying to bring more skaters into the adult community should be welcomed, as we have worked hard to show we are legitimate force in figure skating. And as the baby boomers get older and die off (god forbid) we need to have a steady replacement or the system will suffer in the future.

Just my thoughts......

Burton Powley 2005 Adult Gold Men's Champion.

Well i'll be in gold ladies 3 next year. I wonder, if I let the gray hair show will it help me? I like the idea of skating against the younger skaters, what's the difference? I skate against people 15 years my jr already, it's how I skate that matters, plus the people who I skate against are my friends, its not the winning it's the fact that I have the opportunity to compete that matters.

la

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Who me? Couldn't be....
http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r

Just want to clarify that CoP was approved for standard-track Junior and Senior at Sectionals and Nationals only for this year. Regionals and Adult Sectionals will not yet use CoP; the plan is for Regionals to start in the 2006-07 season.

I was at GC and both spoke and voted in favor of lowering the adult age to 21. As I said from the floor, with the current minimum age of 25, all of the placers in Championship Gold Ladies this year were mid-30s and above, the Championship Masters Ladies and Men winners were both mid-30s, and the Championship Gold Men winner was mid-40s. Not a 20-something in the bunch, proving younger doesn't always mean better.

Adult skating is a work in progress. We hope this new rule will help bring in more skaters. If it ends up being problematic for some reason, guess what -- WE CAN CHANGE IT! Nothing is ever set in stone forever. That's why we have Governing Council every year!

Personally, I'm glad for the rule change. It means I can start competing earlier. I doubt that I'd be really giving anybody a run for their money, I'm just there for fun. Besides, even if it's true that the younger person learns quicker, well that would mean they wouldn't be in that section anymore, right? So if they pass bronze, then pass silver faster, they would compete there. And in those levels, there is a minimum that needs to be passed, so I don't see why it's such a bad thing. And when I turn 21, if I meet any of you at a competition, please be nice to me It's all for fun, really.

Aaaargh!!! This means I'll be a FOUR on June 12th! (my birthday and the wonderful day of O'dorf)! Seriously though, I'm glad for the effort to bring more skaters into the Adult ranks. We must accept new ideas and experiment if we are to grow. I think we have to keep an open mind-just look at how far Adult Skating has come in ten years!!!!! Now we have an ISU comp!!!!! Oh Yeah!!! (head banging w/peace sign)
Adult Skaters rock!!
Becca

It's scary isn't it becca to go from a 2 to a 4 in one fail swoop. I just got used to being a 2, now I'm a 3. I'm gonna work the limp and fake out the young ones.

la

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Who me? Couldn't be....
http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r

Gee, thanks Did you poll all of the adults, or did you do this based on your gut feelings? Because if you had polled the adults at the AN competitors party that I heard polled (myself included), you wouldn't have been so happy to put your vote on that side of things.

Seriously, right now it probably won't matter in the champ events. At bronze and silver it definitely doesn't matter. But give it a few years for gold and I think it will. Someone who posted above said she was skating at the kid level that's equivalent of Silver, with a couple of doubles. The standard track test equivalent of Gold has at least three if not four doubles. How many doubles did the Championship Gold medalists have? Oh, and the superior skating skills of the winners won't matter, because the kids will have them.

I know older kid skaters at the Juvenile level who are good skaters -- they simply started too late (like 13) to be successful at the standard track. They, at 20, would kick the back sides of the 30+'s you are mentioning above. Wait until they are 21, with skate mom financially backing them.....national championship here I come!

Sorry, I just don't like it. There is a huge difference between a 21 year old and a 40 year old. What's next? Why not let the 18 year olds in? Hey, they're adults -- they're old enough to vote and join the military, right? Under the 21 year old reasoning, they should be old enough to skate adult, right? In for a penny, in for a pound, right?????

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Well, I was asked for my opinion, and I was for lowering the age group. So count me as one of the adults in favor. If you had such a problem with it, then next year you spend your time and money to go to GC and speak up.

And in addition, by your logic, if it doesn't matter in Bronze, Silver, or Masters, but MIGHT matter in the future in Gold, then you don't have much of an arguement. We need more adults to enter events, especially in the under-30 category, or ANs will die out due to lack of interest. Period. I think allowing more people to compete trumps your fears that "some" events "might" be affected by this at a later date.

First, I am not rich, thank you very much. I could barely afford to do sectionals and AN this year. So, any extra money for GC is out of my realm of possibilities. However, if you'd like to sponsor my visit, I'd be happy to attend... I did speak to a couple of people who were going to GC, those who bothered to poll the people at AN, and we had a really good coversation about what I thought the pros and cons of the new proposal were.

Daisies, I am sorry if my response sounded mean. I didn't mean it as a slam on you, and it's nothing against you as a person (although reading back I can see how it could be taken that way -- I swear, it wasn't meant that way). It's just that I feel the same frustration that the people who agreed that voluntary adult MIF's were a good thing and then were blindsided with a vote that approved mandatory adult MIF's.

Manleywomen, I never said it wouldn't matter in masters. I can see it mattering in masters very much. However, not as much as in gold, because masters covers so many standard track tests. For those lower than gold, it will only really effect the lowest age group, because you will never see a 40 year old skating against a 21 year old.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but I must say, "Wow, holy sour grapes, Batman!" I say get a grip.

I think it's important to increase the ranks of the adult skating world. I mean, just take a look at the number of skaters in the Class I events at AN. And I think there were a total of five or six Class I men in Kansas City (1 bronze man who had to skate with the bronze II's, 3 silvers, and 1 or 2 gold men who only skated in championship gold). IIRC, the only Class I men's event was silver I. A similar theme was seen with the ladies (no qualifying round for Bronze I ladies!). That does not bode well.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

First, men are not a good example. There are very few men skating, whether they are at AN or at kiddie regionals. To get a lot of men into the ranks at AN, you need to open the events up to 5 year olds.

Second, I do not have sour grapes. (I have almost always been pleased with my results - when I am not, it is due to my own skating, not to the skating of others), and I do not need to get a grip. I met you and your partner at AN, NoVa, although it would not surprise me that you may not remember meeting me. You sometimes overwhelm with your passion for your skating and your opinion (can we say Skateguard?), but we do have a right to opposing opinions without being accused of having "sour grapes, batman".

I have what I consider to be serious concerns about allowing 21 year olds to compete. I did seem harsh to Daisies, and I apologized for it. I did not mean to slam her. Personally, I think my opinions are valid -- not because I think a 21 year old will keep me from a national championship (my lack of good doubles are what will keep me from a national championship). It's just that I don't think that this is a step that adult figure skating needs to take at this time.

There are a lot of reasons why starts are down -- the economy, the location (we had more starts at Lake Placid), whatever. Maybe 5 years ago was a peak -- heck, interest in standard track skating is waning right now. Maybe it's cyclical. However, making a radical systemic change in resonse to what may be a cyclical trend or a aberation seems premature to me.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Neither, considering No. 1 would be impossible and No. 2 would be stupid.

I'm a member of the Adult Skating Committee, and the group went out and talked to as many adults as possible about the issue. I spoke to many adults and the majority were in favor. Some were opposed, too. But here's what's interesting: A lot of skaters who were opposed were opposed based only on how it affected them and their chance of winning. When told of the pros of the proposal, such as the thought that it will bring more skaters into the fold who previously didn't have a lot of chances to compete (thus serving a demo that had not been served and increasing attendance -- two benefits), a lot of them reconsidered and saw the merits of lowering the age. It was refreshing that they saw the big picture and weren't solely focused on their chances of taking home a medal.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The standard equivalent of Silver is Pre-Juvenile, but anyone who's tested FS on the standard track still would have to go back take Adult FS tests in order to compete in Bronze, Silver or Gold. So if that person has several doubles, they might just continue on the standard track and take their Intermediate, in which case they'd be Masters.

That's not necessarily true. Not every 21-year-old has superior skating skills. In fact, a lot of times I see way better skating skills by some adults than I do kids, because all kids want to do is jump, jump, jump, to the detriment of the rest of their skating. But again, it could go either way. Some young'ns will be really good and some won't .... just like some "more mature" skaters will be really good and some won't.

So would some new-to-the-scene 25-year-olds! I don't think you can generalize and say every 21-24-year-old is going to be some phenom.

As there is between a 25- and 40-year-old ... a 25- and 45-year-old ... and 25- and 50-year-old. All of which have been in place for years.

Edited to add:
No offense taken.

Thanks, Daisies. And I will give serious thought to everything else you said.

Edited to add: My point on the standard testing thing was that a 20 year old Juvenile skater probably has doubles though a loop, if not a flip, and probably a double-double, or a double-single combo. The champ Gold medalists at this year's (and last years) AN did not have that jump arsenal.

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

Yep, that's me. The silver medalist was not thrilled at me during the medal ceremony. I was too overjoyed and was tying up my laces at that time and my friends heard. "I should not have let you skate!"
His partner came up to me before the competition, said that he is so upset that he is skating against me.

I mean the comittee did ask me if it was ok. I did not intend to skate with Bronze II.

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Tim David's Website

You know someone w/ a double double and doubles through loop and flip will skate masters not gold. And let's point out the obvious, we all age I've skated against people 15 years my jr and in five years I will skate against people 20 years my jr or 25. SO What...I want an event to go to..if this doesn't work we can change it.

We have the open events that are leveled, what is the big deal? If you argue about this just because you won't make champs...then I mean really...assuming all the little kids will sandbag and run out the 30 and 40 year olds is an unproven assumption.

I kind of thought this was about the sport.

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Who me? Couldn't be....
http://www.youtube.com/bouldersk8r

I think you know me well enough by now to know that I am not arguing against this because I personally might not make champs. If I never make champs again, so be it. I will enjoy the journey.

I do think that my arguments are about the sport. About fairness. And yes, without the 21-24 year olds, we will still have an event for many, many years to come, IMO. The test levels and the competition levels are vastly different between standard and adults. In our level, we have to have an axel, and to be competitive we have to have either superior skating skills and presentation, or have two doubles (or both). The good kids at our standard track equavilent have to have several doubles (3-4), plus good skating skills.

I guess what I am trying to say is that 21 year olds at our level will be closer to standard track competitive standards, and higher than current adult track standards, and I don't see that as a good thing.

Maybe the cure is to limit the elements, or to make the adult tests closer to the reality of the standard track (competitive, not test) -- ie the Gold test is the equal to the standard pre-Juv, and masters is Juv and above.

I dunno -- I just find it frustrating. Right now I am competing against people of similar capabilities -- from first place to last place. I feel that if 21 year old standard track Juvenile skaters are allowed to compete with us, then we will be very outclassed.

As I said before, in another thread on this subject, maybe I am just being paranoid. However, I would hate to see adults staying home from competitions because they are hopelessly outclassed at their test level by the standard track "kids" whose competitive levels are, of necessity in the kid world, realistically far above for their test level.

Haven't you heard this already from the Bronze I's????

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I guess everyone's looking at this through their own lens. I actually think that this will be more of a problem at the lower levels - Pre-Bronze and Bronze. As sk8pics pointed out, someone who starts skating at age 20 will progress faster (and usually farther) than someone who started skating when they were 30 or 40.

I can see 21-year-olds who have been skating for a year or two, and have all their singles, with a greater comfort level on the ice than skaters with the same experience that started when they were older, entering Pre-Bronze or Bronze comps and winning handily. That could potentially discourage those older skaters from competing, which would take them out of the running for AN in the future. Notice I said "potentially" - I'm not trying to predict the downfall of AN or adult skating, and like daisies said, the same situation could occur with 25-year-olds. But a 21-year-old skater would be more likely to outshine the competition, simply because of age.

Remember, a skater who has passed a particular standard track FS test will usually be at a higher level than adult skaters who passed the "equivalent" adult FS test, b/c the competitive standard is higher in the standard track for each level. If a teenage or college-age skater's hardest jump is an axel, or a 2 toe or 2 sal, they may not test higher than Pre-Prelim or Prelim FS, but that doesn't mean they're at the same skill level as a Pre-Bronze or Bronze skater. And most young adults in that situation would probably have stopped testing and competing during college, so their skill level may have increased w/o their taking tests to officially advance in skating level. And at age 21, they may not have the money to start taking a lot of adult or standard FS tests, so there could be a lot of highly skilled skaters hanging out in Pre-Bronze or Bronze for a few years.

Edited to add that given the small number of Class I skaters at the adult comps I attended this year (HC, New Year's), I bet that classes I and II are going to be combined in a lot of comps. That means that 35 year-olds who started skating at 30 will be competing against 21-year-olds in either situation that I described above. As I said when I started this thread, including younger skaters is a good idea, but I'm not sure the age class divisions were thoroughly thought out.

Hmmm, the last time I checked, there were 2 marks: technical and PRESENTATION. The "kiddies" are probably not gonna outclass the older skaters in this area.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

I think we also need to take a "wait and see" attitude towards the "kiddie track" skaters who may or may not make the leap into the adult ranks when given the opportunity.

There may not be many willing to make the leap, as some kids are more than ready to give up skating after they graduate from high school, some after college.

So many are willing to give it up the minute they can to start coaching and in the case of some coaches near and dear to my heart, "never wear lycra again."

I just would hate to see the good karma of a GREAT AN disappear with sniping about this issue, one that has already passed GC. We already hear snarky comments by skaters who judge others based on whether or not they were kid skaters. Let's not divide our group by getting into an "age-ism" thing too!

I'm just as competitive as the rest of you. However, if I'm going to win a competition, I want it to be against the best there is, not because I hid behind some rules that excluded the best. I've done ISI, so I know the dull victory that is "competing against the book". Would I like a medal? Hell, I'd like not to finish last... BUT not if that means compromising the entries to give me the best shot at the gold. That's boring and not a challenge.

I think I remember someone's quote on this issue better on another board: if the age restriction is lowered to 21, they can still go to the bar with us.

Cheers!

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Champagne in 2005, 2008, 2009 - who's next out of the pre-bronze club...?

Wang chung!

And that folks is a far more serious problem than changing the age group classifications. Consider my case. I am the ONLY adult male at my rink who is a freestyler and regularly takes lessons. In every session, I am the only male there (I am not complaining about that ladies, you guys are the greatest is helping me out!!). During the summer session at another rink, I am the only male there as well in all the sessions I am in (that's three). I have gotten other ladies interested in the sport (one is starting group lessons this summer). I have interested three ladies in coming to Lake Placid Adult Week in August. I cannot get any other men interested in the sport.

So fellow adult figure skaters, what do we do??

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Keeping School Figures Alive!!

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I'm not saying that all former kid skaters (maybe we have to come up with a better name for this group!) will surpass the presentation skills of older adult-onset skaters, but I think it is much easier to focus on presentation when you are comfortable with the technical elements you are trying. And anyway soon there will be no second mark.

It's been interesting to read everyone's viewpoints and I'm glad that people are bothering to contribute. I did have a couple of questions that perhaps someone will have some ideas on. First, I hear people talking about the imminent demise of AN due to lower numbers of starts, but yet there are too many entrants to allow pre-bronze skaters to participate. This seems contradictory, or am I missing something? I understand the viewpoint that AN should be for higher level skaters and pre-bronze skaters are too "beginnerish" but it seems like there could be some provision for them, perhaps even just allowing participation in interpretive events. And that might help increase the numbers.

Secondly, I know right now some competitions restrict entries based on standard track test level passed too, as well as adult freeskate level. So for example, a pre-juvenile skater has to have passed (let's say) adult silver and is not allowed to skate at lower levels. (I forget if that is quite the right division, but I hope you see my point.) So, if there is an influx of 21-24 year old skaters who have done some substantial amount of standard track testing they won't be allowed to compete at the lower Adult levels, if this rule is intact. Some competitions, however, do make exceptions. Anyway, does anyone know if this is still in effect? Or maybe it is entirely a local competition thing? Anyway, I wanted to also say that I like this rule because it helps to keep the playing field equitable.

Pat

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August 22, back on the ice!

Goodness. Here I thought Adult Nationals was all about having an enjoyable competitive outlet; if that is the case, then it seems pretty reasonable to increase the number of competitors rather than let Adult Nationals die.

The 'omg! the 21-year-olds will outskate the adults' cry seems a little inappropriate, especially given the tone of the comments. Because their mommies are paying for their lessons? Is that really a legitimate complaint? (Should we exclude the childless? Some people can afford more lessons than I can, too.)

In any case, I'm not quite sure how the levels at Adult Nationals work, but let's just take my college-affiliated club as an example. Most of the skaters are between 20-22; I'm 25, so's another woman, and a 30-year-old skates regularly.

The other 25 year old and I are both bonafide adult skaters. She's been skating 5 years and is largely self taught; decent forward spins, beginning sit spin, all singles except axel, and a cool shoot the duck. I've been skating a couple months and have a demented waltz jump.

One of the 20 year olds has been skating 3 years intermittently; she has a scratchy forward crossover. The rest of the 20-22 year olds all skated competitively as children; they all passed through Junior moves at least -- I think that puts them at the Masters level, but they competed normally at Novice.

Two of them have double toe loops and loops; two of them still have a double flip, and one of the girls still retains her double lutz and attempts double axels. Their artistic elements differ -- the girl with the double Axels has an Ina Bauer to die for, but not as good a spiral as the girl whose best jump is a double loop.

Only one of them is currently old enough to compete in Adults, but here's the thing. If you are an Adult who started at 21, you are not going to be competing against these girls. If you are a much older Adult of similar skill level, you are of a SIMILAR SKILL LEVEL. They are no longer competitive. They skate about 4 hours a week around their college activities and programs. If they were still interested in competing seriously, they would have an outlet in the standard track. A girl who is 21 and has triples is not going to waste her time at Adult Nationals. So you're getting formerly competitive child skaters who now do this for fun and don't train hard core and... aren't perfect or unbeatable.

A lot of the younger skaters, too, just aren't interested in competing anymore, especially not at Adult Nationals. I speculate that the eager 23-year-old competitors are probably people who just started when they were 21 or 22. And while a 21 year-old skater may have a faster learning curve, that's really not an objection as it's too dependent on the person.

The only one of this age group that would affect a Bronze skater theoretically is the girl with no forward crossovers.

Combining classes does increase the age gap, but increasing the number of eligible competitors I think would decrease the likelihood of classes needing to be combined.

See how it goes. I'm certain if it turns into 21-year olds winning every competition, a rule change will be proposed and confirmed again.