Bronze Moves Test Experience - Page 3

icedancer2 · #51 10-04-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbny

That makes sense, although I have trouble imagining the Paso Doble done that way because of the tempo.

What phoenix said plus they are a LOT shallower.

I recently started working on the Paso again after working on the cross-strokes for the Silver MITF test for about a year. I did them like on the Moves, and my dance coach was like "wha'? -- please make them a lot quicker and shallower!".

dbny · #52 10-04-2005, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedancer2

What phoenix said plus they are a LOT shallower.

Of necessity, I would imagine

Thin-Ice · #53 10-09-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Debbie S

Did you do the landing position move (alt BO edge glides) in 4 lobes or 5 on each side? I remember some of the kids testing Prelim MIF at a recent test session I watched got marked a tenth above on this move, but they all did it in 4 lobes instead of the usual 5. I was just curious.

Many times the judges give more credit for doing 4 of these instead of 5 -- because if you can cover the distance in 4, you obviously have more POWER than if you need 5 to do it. You really only need to do 2 lobes on each side -- and many skaters find it easier to push out into back crossovers to cover the end of the rink if they only do 4 lobes. Of course, none of this applies if you start by the blue line... and skate only partway down the rink and end with lots of room to spare after the fourth lobe!

One thing many judges do (subconsciously, I'm sure) is compare how long it takes for a skater to do an element compared to other skaters doing the same elements... less time = more power. But that can be unfair to some skaters if they test at a bigger rink. Jazzpants' primary (and testing) rink is 200' long.. so of course it will take her longer to cover that much ice, compared to some of the other local rinks which are only 185' long... and those may not appear any shorter from the judges' perspective.. but that 15' can make a big difference. And some of the other Bay Area rinks are only 175' or 150' long. So, I try to use that to my advantage. I HATED the Pre-Juvenile Moves "3-Turns in the Field" so I took that test on the 150' length rink. The lobes didn't have to be as big and I didn't have to do as many.. and knowing that made it easier to do them.. but they ALL had to be done right. It worked for me.. I passed that test.

jazzpants · #54 10-10-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thin-Ice

Many times the judges give more credit for doing 4 of these instead of 5 -- because if you can cover the distance in 4, you obviously have more POWER than if you need 5 to do it. You really only need to do 2 lobes on each side -- and many skaters find it easier to push out into back crossovers to cover the end of the rink if they only do 4 lobes. Of course, none of this applies if you start by the blue line... and skate only partway down the rink and end with lots of room to spare after the fourth lobe!

Then I'll have to retract this statement...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzpants

I did 5 on each side (following whatever pattern is on the USFSA rulebook diagram.)

I mixed up the alt backcrossovers to the BO edge with the perimeter back crossovers. I do indeed, do 4 on each side for the 4th move. (No wonder none of the judges made a comment!!! I was a good girl and followed the diagram in the rulebook.

) In fact, I remembered having to adjust my pattern so it's smaller b/c I was starting to hit close to the wall of my test rink at one point, b/c I had been practicing at my weekend rink which is a much bigger rink than my home/test rink.

My policy is always follow the rulebook to the T... give the judges no weird excuse for not passing you...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thin-Ice

One thing many judges do (subconsciously, I'm sure) is compare how long it takes for a skater to do an element compared to other skaters doing the same elements... less time = more power. But that can be unfair to some skaters if they test at a bigger rink. Jazzpants' primary (and testing) rink is 200' long.. so of course it will take her longer to cover that much ice, compared to some of the other local rinks which are only 185' long... and those may not appear any shorter from the judges' perspective.. but that 15' can make a big difference. And some of the other Bay Area rinks are only 175' or 150' long. So, I try to use that to my advantage. I HATED the Pre-Juvenile Moves "3-Turns in the Field" so I took that test on the 150' length rink. The lobes didn't have to be as big and I didn't have to do as many.. and knowing that made it easier to do them.. but they ALL had to be done right. It worked for me.. I passed that test.

If I try to do that rulebook diagram at my weekend rink, it'll be easier to follow the pattern since I don't have to worry about the wall, but I would have to worry about getting enough "rink coverage." Can't win either way...

Power was not a concerned for the judges in my case. (In fact I had the comments "GOOD POWER!" on one of the test forms. It was just they thought I was on a flat for a couple of the moves. (i.e. the first and probably the second one too. I don't have the test form for this test with me yet... ours gets mailed about 2 weeks to a month after the test is over.)

Which brings the question... how does one have "good power" but still "skate on flats???" It makes no sense to me since there's no way I could generate "power" if I'm "skating on flats."

(And yes, this is for the first and probably second move.) I got dinged by the other two judges who didn't passed me for skating on flats. Power didn't matter to them...

jenlyon60 · #55 10-10-2005, 11:33 AM

You were pushing and generating momentum, but you were stroking onto too much of a flat. Or rather it was not discernable to the judges that you were on the correct edges throughout the whole pattern.

I tend to look at the overall body, but especially the foot/ankle of the skater, in addition to watching the lobe they are making.

On the alternating forward power crossover perimeter stroking, for example, if after you do the initial crossover/progressive, the Left edge goes very diagonal or straight (almost perpendicular to the long axis) instead of "up and around", then the skater is most likely on a flat. If that left edge retrogresses somewhat, then that 3rd edge is most likely on an outside edge.

A lot of skaters, on this move will start on a flat or outside edge then rock over onto the inside edge. If it's not an egregious change of edge, it may be acceptable.

Hope this helps.

jazzpants · #56 10-10-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenlyon60

You were pushing and generating momentum, but you were stroking onto too much of a flat. Or rather it was not discernable to the judges that you were on the correct edges throughout the whole pattern.

I tend to look at the overall body, but especially the foot/ankle of the skater, in addition to watching the lobe they are making.

On the alternating forward power crossover perimeter stroking, for example, if after you do the initial crossover/progressive, the Left edge goes very diagonal or straight (almost perpendicular to the long axis) instead of "up and around", then the skater is most likely on a flat. If that left edge retrogresses somewhat, then that 3rd edge is most likely on an outside edge.

AHHHHH!!! I didn't realize there is a certain amount of retrogressing that's allowed!!! I was under the assumption that one must NEVER retrogress!!!

Is this the same case for the 5 step mohawk move as well? If so, where are the spots where judges expects/allows some amount of retrogress? I'm playing around w/the 3rd and 4th step. (Primary coach had to adjust my 5 step once a few months back b/c he thought it was retrogressing too much and was concerned the judges were gonna ding me for that.)

phoenix · #57 10-10-2005, 12:25 PM

A word of caution there--in my area the judges will totally nail you for retrogressing.

But there's a also a big difference between skating in true 1/2 circle lobes & skating in shallow curves that never get you back to where you need to be. Just like in dance patterns, every lobe of a moves pattern has to start & end going straight at the SIDE wall, not down ice. Your coaches are watching for this, I'm sure. My first coach used to say, you have to skate edges that look like happy face smiles, not eye lashes.

(we don't have a smilie that quite shows it right.....)

Debbie S · #58 10-10-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenlyon60

A lot of skaters, on this move will start on a flat or outside edge then rock over onto the inside edge. If it's not an egregious change of edge, it may be acceptable.

Hey, Jen, can you judge my test (lol)?

Seriously, I always have this problem on the first LFI step on the forward perimeter. By the second LFI transition, I usually get it looking right (I think), but I feel like the first LFI goes too straight. My coach noted that you do have to step straight out, as opposed to diagonally up/down the ice, and that if you do it right, you will curve along an edge, but I find myself really fighting to get that on the first step.

jenlyon60 · #59 10-10-2005, 12:52 PM

Agree... there shouldn't be retrogressing... but if there's only a blade length or so that's flat to an outside edge on this MIF, that's not enough retrogressing to merit calling it such.

Now, on the double back outside edges (LBO-RBO and RBO-LBO) in the European Waltz or the double back outside swings in the American Waltz, there definitely shouldn't be any retrogressing... OTOH, it seems to be very prevalent in the American. Last season, it seemed like half the Novice teams competing the American Waltz had serious retrogressing. And some of these were the higher placing Novice teams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

A word of caution there--in my area the judges will totally nail you for retrogressing.

But there's a also a big difference between skating in true 1/2 circle lobes & skating in shallow curves that never get you back to where you need to be. Just like in dance patterns, every lobe of a moves pattern has to start & end going straight at the SIDE wall, not down ice. Your coaches are watching for this, I'm sure. My first coach used to say, you have to skate edges that look like happy face smiles, not eye lashes.

(we don't have a smilie that quite shows it right.....)

jenlyon60 · #60 10-10-2005, 12:54 PM

Make sure you finish each lobe. If you cut the lobe short (on the previous FI, i.e. the FI of the actual crossover/progressive), it's more challenging IMO to do the transition FI (on the other foot) correctly.

And oh yeah... on those power pulls on Adult Silver/Pre-Juv, please don't wobble down the ice relying largely on the momentum picked up from the intro steps or the transition steps from forwards to backwards...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Debbie S

Hey, Jen, can you judge my test (lol)?

Seriously, I always have this problem on the first LFI step on the forward perimeter. By the second LFI transition, I usually get it looking right (I think), but I feel like the first LFI goes too straight. My coach noted that you do have to step straight out, as opposed to diagonally up/down the ice, and that if you do it right, you will curve along an edge, but I find myself really fighting to get that on the first step.

jazzpants · #61 10-10-2005, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

A word of caution there--in my area the judges will totally nail you for retrogressing.

Here too (in No. Ca!) And I've had heard of one person who had a retry for regressing. That's why I'm asking that question...

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

But there's a also a big difference between skating in true 1/2 circle lobes & skating in shallow curves that never get you back to where you need to be. Just like in dance patterns, every lobe of a moves pattern has to start & end going straight at the SIDE wall, not down ice. Your coaches are watching for this, I'm sure. My first coach used to say, you have to skate edges that look like happy face smiles, not eye lashes.

(we don't have a smilie that quite shows it right.....)

So this smilies

(w/o the tongue) won't work, huh?

I guess I'll know more once my coaches starts working me on Bronze moves again. Right now they're more in prep mode for Skate SF/Bronze FS test program/Sectionals.

As far as I know, I am finishing the lobe... so it's probably something very minor to fix but significant enough that they are being nit-picky with me on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenlyon60

Agree... there shouldn't be retrogressing... but if there's only a blade length or so that's flat to an outside edge on this MIF, that's not enough retrogressing to merit calling it such.

So confusing to differentiate between being on a flat and on a curve w/o retrogressing...

jenlyon60 · #62 10-10-2005, 01:36 PM

I spent quite some time working on getting on the proper edges with no retrogressing or flats in that corner, when I had to compete the Blues last year for Pro-Am... In that case it was a Progressive sequence into a deep LFI then do the choctaw onto the RBO. Hard enough solo but very challenging in Foxtrot hold with coach, IMO.

But the result was that the last time coach started making me work on Bronze MIF (which I have yet to test), it was easier for me to get onto a nice LFI.

Having not seriously worked on the Bronze MIF in over a year, my coach said to me 2 weeks ago that he wants me to work on them again for testing. So I have a full plate... Prelim Figures with coach #2, Silver dances and Bronze MIF with coach #1. And after sometime in January/early February, Pro-Am dance assignment with coach #1 (which may or may not include any Silver dances... the last 2 years I've skated up and done Pre-Gold).

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzpants

So confusing to differentiate between being on a flat and on a curve w/o retrogressing...

mikawendy · #63 10-10-2005, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzpants

So confusing to differentiate between being on a flat and on a curve w/o retrogressing...

Jazzpants, I'll second that!

I've always been told that the beginning and end of a lobe is always perpendicular to the axis.... so to do that without being on a flat is done how? By making sure to step with the new skating foot already on an edge? (with lean of body/boot/sole of foot?) Arrrrgh, I'm really confused! Must ask coach about this.

jenlyon60 · #64 10-11-2005, 05:30 AM

Yes one could be on a flat momentarily ... maybe 1 bladelength at most. If you sustain a flat edge, that is incorrect on the alternating forward power crossovers.

Remember, a lobe is a semi-circle. Not a "U" or a warped half-circle.

At the moment of lobe and foot change, your new skating foot should be placed on the ice on the new edge and you push onto that new edge (lifting the hip of the free side almost immediately helps alot).

I have been working on Preliminary figures and this has been my biggest bugaboo outside of surviving the Waltz 8 as a figure. I tend to stay on a flat or nearly so for about 3 blade lengths on each circle. I'm gradually training myself out of it with using a scribe.

icedancer2 · #65 10-11-2005, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenlyon60

Yes one could be on a flat momentarily Remember, a lobe is a semi-circle. Not a "U" or a warped half-circle.

Truer words have never been spoken! I am getting really tired of seeing those lobes that look more like SQUARES!!

kar5162 · #66 10-11-2005, 01:52 PM

it's kind of the difference between a smiley face and a square. you can get back to the axis by doing a half a circle (correct edges) or making a kind of box (too much on flats).

xxxxx
x
x
x
xxxxx

__xxxx
xx
x
xx
__xxxx

(had to insert the underscores as additional boxes kept coming in)

jazzpants · #67 10-11-2005, 02:01 PM

You know, I'm almost tempted to just overdo the curve, just so at least I can show that I AM on a curve!!! Knowing me, I just might end up correcting the problem instead!!!

(Sorta like the theory that when you think you've bended your knee deep enough, bend even DEEPER!!!)

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