Which is exactly what you do on roller skates. I almost killed myself playing around in roller skates and landing jumps until I got the hang of landing them flat-footed. That's how you can almost always pick out someone who started in roller skating on the ice, they land flat-footed and kind of thud, rather than a nice soft toe-first landing.

Just because something works with wheels on your feet, or is acceptable under the rules and coaching norms of one sport, does not mean it works or should be the same (or changed to be the same) when you trade the wheels in for steel double edged knives and a wood floor for ice.

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Normally, roller skates aren't rockered unless they're PIC or Snow White versions, right? That absolutely explains why the "land forward and three" training technique would be okay for roller but not for ice skating.

Are there half-revolution jumps in roller? One of the reasons bunny hops, side toe hops, ballet jumps, half-flip, half-lutz and Mazurkas are included in LTS programs is to teach a skater how to save themselves should they land facing forward -and- to train the skater to control a landing on the pointed foot/toepick.

When teaching an axel, one of the preparation drills is to do a one-rotation jump that takes off forward and lands forward. Some people call this a half-Axel or Bell jump. The skater lands on the toepick of one foot and immediately pushes off onto a checked edge of the opposite foot.

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Yeah, old school quad roller skates are not rockered, so you land jumps flat-footed. (You loosen the trucks so you get a side to side give to allow you to use edges, but from toe to heel they are the same).

I've personally done half flips and half lutzes on roller skates, but that's because I'm a figure skater who playing around, and I was using that to work up to getting comfortable enough to try a full rev just as we do in figure skating. I'm not sure what's actually taught to roller skaters by roller skating coaches, the only actual roller skating training I've had (other than derby which is a whole other world) is a little bit of roller dance group lessons that all the adult figure skaters at my ice rink get together and take once in a while for fun. They also do half loops to link jump sequences just like on ice (they call them Eulers), but we all know that's not a real half-rev jump, you take off and land backwards.

I always watch the artistic roller skaters when I get to roller derby early and they are practicing because I'm just fascinated by the physics of it (I don't get how spinning works). But from what I've seen, I don't think they're ever taught to land forward in building jumps. Two of them are supposedly a big deal on the national roller skating scene, and in watching the older of the two do what they call triples, particularly on edge jumps, they really swing the free leg and dip the upper body to yank themselves in the air, land after 2 revs, and the 3rd rev is almost entirely done on the floor. (It would make most figure skating coaches cringe, but in roller skating, I guess it works because her coach always tells her what a nice triple she did). And all their more difficult jumps are always done in sequences or combinations because they can't control the landing and hold it, they have to pop right up into another easier jump to gain control. If they're taught to be yanking themselves like that, I don't see how they could control a jump enough to land forward and stay that way when learning a multi revolution jump like your axel/bell jump example, or the 1.5 revs/land forward that a lot of people start to build doubles off of. They have to cheat and spin on the floor when they land. Even the younger ones learning singles never seem to be working on half jumps, they land after half a rev and spin on the floor. Now, that could be the norm, or it could just be this particular group of coaches and the way they teach things, I don't know.

This would explain why the roller coach (after seeing my friend and I doing singles just goofing off in roller derby skates, which aren't even the right boots/trucks/wheels/toe stops for artistic) keeps telling us that we need to compete in roller skating because he'd easily be able to teach us to land doubles.

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(Laughing). Poor roller coach. He would love to "steal" ice figure skaters and "turn them" to "our side."

Artistic roller is dying here in the US...
You are lucky to live in an area that even has any clubs left. I would love to go back to roller (where my technique is "correct" and there are no tests), but there are simply no rinks with clubs or practice time in my area and I cannot afford to move ..

Yup, this is how I land everything. It works on ice....to a point. Not calling it "good technique" on ice....But it will work.... Someone landing like this (espeically with a high wrap leg) can actually manage to "cheat" jump landings becuase it is much easier to do than with "correct ice technique" (legs crossed at ankles with pointed toes)....

Not saying the 1/2 turn cheat is the "correct" way to add rotation on ice.....But since it works with the flat landings, I find it easier than falling (hard) trying to go for the whole thing. It is a less painful way of finding the axis....for me, anyways....and I am old. Bubble wrap or not, those falls kind of hurt...

Yes, roller skaters do have these jumps. ...But the landing on these jumps is different than the "cheat" landing I was referring to in that on these jumps the skater lands on the toe pick (on ice) or the toe stop (on roller) and then pushes onto the other skate......The 1/2 cheats I am talking about are a landed on the IF edge of the landing foot and then a IF-OB 3 turn to complete the rotation.

Just to clarify. When I was learning axel and doubles, my coach wanted me to land in a backspin and pivot out whether or not I was forward, backward or somewhere in b/w. This would keep me in proper position for a correct landing when I could complete the rotation in the air. I usually landed flat and did a 3turn. I do not know if this is b/c I did a lot of roller skating as a kid. From what I am reading here, it makes sense to me now. However, I never had this prob w single jumps that were easy for me to complete.

On rollers, it would be nearly impossible to land toe first b/c the skater would fall forward on her face or catch the toe stop. A good roller jump, as I understand, lands "flat back", truly backwards on all 4 wheels. There is no cheat at all and absolutely no rotation on the floor, not even 1/4 or less. From what I have seen, a roller skater who can land a fully rotated, clean triple (or double) is completing more rotation in the air than a comparable jump on ice.

For ex, here is roller skater landing a flat back axel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQA6Gzi81cQ
She starts dead straight and lands completely backwards.
Here is a roller skating champion landing 3axels and 3loops:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoXNG...eature=related
He has more "edge" into the jumps than the previous young skater.

Kay

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Yes, we used to dis the ice skaters (friendly way) by claiming they always "cheat" at the beginning because they need to "turn into" or "hook" their jumps. In the "old days" roller never did this. It was completely flat to flat: All rotation in the air....

However...

With the "new standards" now, they are alllowing for some "toe rotation" like ice does up into the jump. (Of course, roller really doesn't need this since there is no pick to catch....But it does make the jump easier to do which is why I think they are allowing it.) And, yes, in the worst cases, like RachelSk8er noted the jump spins on the floor going up and cheats at the landing so a supposed "triple" is really a double cheated 1/2 going in and 1/2 comming out.....Of course this is only in the worst cases. But it's still not good..... Not all rollers cheat, though. World Class like Jayson Suttcliffe don't. Most world class men don't (at least in quad. Inline is much harder for them.) Some world class women do, because it is so much harder due to weight of the skates and other issues (blade vs wheels, lack of speed, etc.)

Yes, this is what I am doing. Usually I three turn, sometimes I get lucky and the tracing is less (usually 1 quarter). I do like that about ice.....You can "save" a landing less than 1/2 short. On roller, the wheels don't slide sideways. If you are less than 1/2 short (forward landing), the skate will slip out sideways and there is a nasty fall.....I called it "hip slam."

So true. If we were lucky we would just kind of bounce around on the toe stop and save ourselves by tripping out with a sloppy mohawk.....IF we were lucky...

What of landing with the weight on the heel and 3-turn out? Only works if you know you're gonna underrotate, and maybe it only works on snowwhites lol?

Actually, when I started learning the axel (before the injury that took me out from jumping for years - injury was spin-toepick-catch-related btw) I was told to just land it forward and 3-turn out, land on my landing foot if I could (and I could). Then the precious few times when I actually had more than 1-and-a-bit revolution I had a problem cuz I'd land backward on the back of my blade and go boink boink on my butt from there (cuz landing backwards really does require weight more forwards on the blade). But it does work for learning, I was landing it forwards and 3-ing out all the time for a bit there. Maybe it's just me, I think I naturally land too heavily and flat-footed (maybe I shouldn't use rollers so much lol!) Totally need to work ont hat.

Another thing coaches suggested was landing on the toe and then bouncing right back up to complete the half rev in the air on a new jump of sorts.

What Isk8NYC suggests, I've not seen done around here (which is not to say it never is, just that I haven't seen it).

Oh yes, definitely, that is the idea (landing flat back or 3 turning out). A roller toe landing, (other than on forward landing jumps like ballet, mazurka, split etc where the skater steps onto the other foot), is always a mistake resulting from a forward lean or break in the waist.....Like you said, rollers land flat......Or, at least, we try to.... That is why rollers can do long combinations (5-9 jumps in a row), because the landing edge doesn't curl like it does on the toe-edge landing. (This is probably why ice limits combination lengths.)

Yes, I read that for 2axel a good prep is axel-2loop so I have been doing these. I like the combo (for my test program), but I don't really think it's helping all that much.... The axis is different for the single and the double... This doesn't help with finding the axis...

See, now that is what I'm talking about. It seems that with the younger skaters or the skaters just beginning doulbes the coaches are OK with the "cheat" method....But from what I hear the skaters learning triples are encouraged to go for the whole thing. (Of course these are "better" skaters, usually in their mid-late teens/early 20s).

I think ice could do long combinations, the rules just don't allow it. But I've seen skaters do 15+ loops in a row. Loop contests seem to be the norm on game days. Maybe the force of a triple that wouldn't be possible, I don't know.

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Yeah, if you can control your landings, you can keep jumping on ice. You just have to think of keeping the hip on your free side forward and not let it pull back (which usually results in your left shoulder following...which is also how a lot of people end up toe waltzing, too). A lot of coaches will have skaters do loops until they can't do them any more to work on keeping up speed/power between jumps in combinations and proper position of the free hip.

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I wonder why not??? I guess they are afraid the programs will just deteriorate into a bunch of long combos trying to rack up points... Wish they'd allow at least one 5 or 7 jump combo, (maybe with singles to link the jumps like on roller.) They are fun to watch.

I actually encourage my students to do long series of jumps to improve control and flow usually waltz jumps or toe loops. I also like skaters to do long combos/series of various jumps so they have to think about what they are doing b/w jumps. i also find that when skaters do long series they become less inhibited. The waltz jumps in the middle and toward the end of a long series are commonly the best ones. They learn to control the landing and jump w/o over thinking. Ideally, a series of waltz jumps should build speed. I often see this happening w my students.

I have also watched skaters learning doubles do a series of jumps before the double. This seems to work well w loops. When I was training axel, I did 2+ waltz jumps then the axel. Results were pretty good.

Kay

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Part of the reason is the Zayak rule. That is you can't repeat a jump, except in combination, and then only once. If you did a 7 jump combo, you would use use a great number of your possible jumps in one combo.

The other reason is that figure skating isn't all about the jumps - otherwise they'd call it something like ice jumping. A good program is built of a series of jump passes, spin elements, spiral sequences, step sequences, and connecting steps. And, in pairs there are lifts, death spirals, combo spins, pairs spins, and sbs jumps.

Figure skating started as a competition of people doing compulsory figures - hence the name. Much later came freeskating, but you only got to compete that event if you were tops in the compulsory figures.

After TV came about and the powers that be decided that TV audiences didn't want to watch compulsory figures, the ISU removed them and added a short program.

However, the roots and beauty of the sport are the skating aspects. This is part of the reason why USFS is adding some of the old compulsory figure elements back into the Moves in the Field tests starting Sept 1.

Unfortunately, the ISU has now also messed with Ice Dancing, and will remove the compulsory dances and replace them with a short dance. And, don't even get me started on the Mixed Team event! I mean lets add an Olympic event that no one is competing currently and not add Synchro - grrrr.

I have met Ottavia Cinquanta, and he seems like a nice man. However, his background is speed skating, and his ideas of what should be involved in figure skating and judging is ruining a sport that has been an Olympic event for over 100 years.

Rob

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You actually used to see people doing longer combos back in the day when top skaters were only doing maybe a doulbe or two at the most and we didn't have those rules in place because you didn't really need them. If you pull up videos of Carol Heiss, she would do 4 axels in alternating directions one after the other. And she had at least two other axels in that same program. But figure skating evolved beyond that to where we expect skaters to demonstrate more variety in their jumping ability.

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I know what you mean. Roller usually uses a traveling 3 or waltz jump enterence into a loop jump. It is odd to see one done flat back off an edge (like ice). I noticed that it is much, much easier for me to do the loop off a combo. (Probably masking some sort of error on takeoff.....But it works.)

Yes, as much as I'd like to see a "jump event" added, that should be an entirely seperate event. As you said in "figure skating" there should be a balance....I do think, however, that there are too many rules on the long program in ice....The short program should have all the "rules" while the long program should allow skaters to showcase their tallents to a greater degree than it does now. (The "freeskate" is no longer free. )Maybe a good spinner would like to add another level 4 spin while a good jumper would like to get credit for another jump combo... Some rules are good. (Zayak rule rule for example. Can't keep getting credit for the triple toe loop over and over and over )....But it would be nice to open things up a little bit....Right now the long programs are all so "cookie cutter," know what I mean?

What is the mixed team event?

Kay

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There was a team trophy "fluff" event last year- and I think the ISU has added it as an official championship, with possibility of adding it to many competitions later.

There were 2 male singles, 2 female singles (one each competing short and long), and then a pair and a dance team (IIRC. The scores were added together to find the winning country.

Like an "all-around" event. But only a few countries are strong enough in all the disciplines to even have a chance to play.

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Great post, Rob. I would love love LOVE for synchro to be in the Olympics, but I don't hold much hope because it means so many more athletes to accommodate.

Yeah, logistically it's not going to happen without more drastic changes to the sport. And any current/former synchro skater, coach, judge or general enthusiast will tell you that they would rather see it stay out than to see the sport we know totally discombobulated into something else that doesn't even resemble synchro just so that the Olympic committee would approve.

So basically what's been going on (sort of) with high school and collegiate competitions for about 10 yrs in the US now (maybe even longer, but it's grown over the last 10), but on a more official level.

Do they compete again/seprately for this event against only other countries entering skaters in the event, or are the scores from the regular events just added to determine the winning country?

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I think right now Team Trophy is just a seperate event, so they compete seperately only for the event. (I can't find an official write up of the ISU Congress. This link: http://www.iceskating.org.uk/files/C...ISIONS%202.doc has some summary. You might be interested that they tried to remove men from synchro- but the motion failed.)

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Yeah removing men will never fly, some of the countries struggling to get teams together need that option in order to get enough skaters to have a team at worlds and there is no evidence whatsoever that teams with men have any sort of advantage over all-female teams. It comes up every few years, closest they have gotten is capping it at 4. Once upon a time, there was a Russian team called Dream Team that was 12 men/12 women (back when senior was 24 skaters), it was pretty cool to watch, they were a decent team, but not one of the top teams in the world or anything like that. Team Berlin had 5 the year they placed 5th at worlds (in 05), but the program would have been just as good with 20 female skaters.

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Here's some info on the Team Trophy event:
http://www.isu.sportcentric.net/db//...ve.php?id=1872

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