I know we've discussed the topic of fear many a time, but I need to pull it out once more and blow the dust off. I'm getting so frustrated with myself that I feel like this smiley x 100:

I've been skating about 3.5 years now and I love it. Did my first competition last weekend (I skated ISI Freestyle 1) and had such a good time! But in my lesson today it was back to work; I am trying to learn the salchow and although I keep trying, it's not happening. My fear is stopping me. I rarely fall, and I know all the conventional wisdom that if you're not falling, you're not trying. But I assure you, I am trying! It's not just the sal, either. I can't do 3-turns and mohawks with any speed, can hardly do inside 3s at all, and my waltz jump looks like a hiccup (and that's after months, if not years, of effort). I can practically taste that salchow but I wonder if I'll ever get it. I could probably survive the Pre-Bronze test but Bronze and up looks so far out of reach, and it's all because of this problem. I am physically fit and kinesthetically smart enough to do what needs doing, if my "lizard brain" would just get on board.

I know we have to give ourselves credit for what we have accomplished, and I try to. But I know I am capable of more and fear is holding me back. I don't consciously panic and put the brakes on; I don't think about falling or even feel frightened when I see someone else fall. But when I try something I'm not comfortable with, I wimp out every time. My body simply disobeys. I have to chip away at new skills, little by little, over months until I finally reach a comfort level, and I don't have the patience.

I don't mean to be melodramatic, but I've honestly started to wonder if the fear I feel is just like everyone else's. I am usually good at controlling my mental state but this is different. My mother tells me I've been cautious like this ever since I was a tiny baby--of course, she is my mom, so she thinks my overactive self-preservation instinct is great!

Okay, rant off. Um...thoughts? I am gonna have to buy my coach a present after actually STOMPING MY FOOT in my lesson today. Any words of wisdom are appreciated, and thank you for letting me brain-dump this.

Listening to your concerns, I would say you need to prioritize your practices and master the turns first. Some edge work and practice will help, so start working on your Pre-Bronze/Bronze MITF. It will help your freestyle skating overall, as will ice dancing.

I laughed out loud when my coach suggested (many years ago) that we start working on a double salchow. I hated that jump as a single! While I can do it, even to this day, give me a loop or an axel any day! I know I'm in the minority, but it feels good to know others struggle with it, too.

You need the Salchow to move up to ISI FS 3. So, focus on other jumps first and don't obsess about the salchow. I did something similar when I first learned the flip: I just couldn't do the dratted jump. I just practiced spins and other jumps for a few weeks. Only made one or two attempts at the flip during the practices, and worked on it with my coach during lessons. I landed it about a month later.

You're probably on a plateau, so hang in there.

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LOL, I've done that too! I'm good at the foot stamp when I'm frustrated with myself

The thing is that this fear thing is there to protect us, unfortunately that instinct is stronger in some people than others. Doesn't help you much but it would if you'd got a tiger after you My fear instinct is crap, I'd be eaten before I even thought to run away ... I'd be looking at it thinking "aw, what a nice kitty".

Don't worry about not falling over, I didn't start falling a lot until I got the loop then it was kaboom, kaboom, kaboom ... even more so when I got to the Lutz!

I would definitely work on the basic though, in my opinion the basics are THE most important and difficult skills to get right. Unless you have the basics then the more advanced moves will be so much more difficult.

Would working with another coach occasionally help you? Sometimes you feel that you can 'get away' with more when you know someone better. I know that I seem to up my ante with a new trainer/coach/teacher. It may be just enough to push you forwards a bit more.

Do you ever just skate to the music without thinking? What are you like when you do a programme? It may be worth having a programme with your nemesis moves in so that you can get into a rhythm and, hopefully, the music and rhythm will help you to push through your fear a tiny bit.

Wish I could be more help but I'm not very good at fear, I either avoid the thing completely or face it head on and b****r the consequences

Anyway ... all the best x

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The best whisper is a click

ITA, you need to go back to basics & work on those until they are very solid. If you're not comfortable w/ a 3 turn, how can you expect yourself to be comfortable going into a salchow? As my coach would say, you can't build the house if there is no foundation.

Moves or dance would be your very best friend & my own advice (understand that I'm a dancer & wouldn't care if I never jumped again...) would be to lay off the jumps completely for at least a couple of weeks while you focus on strengthening your edges & work on your balance in turns. Do lots of knee bending exercises & very simple stroking/edge exercises. Do them a LOT. Like for an hour each time. After a few weeks, then go back to your waltz jump & see if it feels any better.

Example: I actually took 5 years off from dance & did freestyle. Never did jumps beyond flip though, & not a good spinner at all. Then 3 years ago went back to dance full force & with a vengeance. A few months ago, I decided to run through my jumps just to see if I could still do them, having not jumped *at all* for almost 3 years. ......They were better, higher, faster, than when that was all I was working on! Hmmmmmmm........

ETA: I had to find out where the nearest Starbucks is to the rink, so my coach regularly gets a cup of coffee after lessons when I've been particularly bratty! (it's fairly often.....)

Completely agree, personally I'd go for dance because you also get the rhythm, flow and music. It's easy to get a bit 'stuck' on the field moves (I hated them even though I know that they're a necessary evil Loved dance though ).

LOL, what is it about skating that brings out the 'Kevins' in us? I'm not as bad when I'm riding but skating and dance really regresses me to the stroppy teenager

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The best whisper is a click

What, what? Is this a reference to me? If so, explain.

I'm not going to be much help, but since you're polling normalcy, I'll toss my experience out there.

Afraid? Slightly, but it never stops me from trying. I have bruises, scrapes, scratches, rashes, and blisters all over my body. Maybe it's because I started with hockey, where you just learn that it's part of the game to get hurt. Maybe it's because I'm so determined. Whatever the reason, I fell perhaps three or four times a day. I just get up and try again.

As to the salchow specifically, yesterday I got it. However, every single time I attempted to duplicate it, I fell right over. Once on a previously bruised knee, and let me tell you, that hurt something feirce. The issue with the salchow for me, is that the difficulty doesn't lay in the jump so much. Switiching feet isn't the issue, it's that I'm uncomfortable with a left inside three turn followed by what seems conceptually to be a small spin that comes before switching feet. I was never able to duplicate the jump because I could never complete that small spin again.

ummm..there is no "small spin" in a salchow. If you have learned it that way then you have learned it incorrect. The "small spin" syndrome happens when you learn it incorrect. And trust me its a hard habit to break. Similar to a toe-loop. Its not and inside 3 turn followed by a waltz jump as many kids were taught. So now I struggle with a simple toe-loop becasue I am working on double toes and have horrible technique on it.

small correction: should be left *outside* 3 turn into the salchow.....

I didn't know it was an inside three turn at all? I do mine from a left forward outside 3 turn....granted I was told I was doing my salchow all wrong after posting some videos so...

Outside, not inside. I apologize. I meant outside.

Can you describe the steps? I'm only applying what it conceptually seemed like to me. It is quite possible I am merely using the wrong terminology. When I completed it, it made sense, and it was nothing like a waltz jump.

If you're not taking off from a LBI edge (CCW rotation), the takeoff is not correct. If you do a bit of a turn or "spin" on the ice before you takeoff, it's called "cheating the jump." It's usually a question of timing and lessons/practice will take care of the problem.

Not everyone uses a LFO 3-turn entrance, either. I've seen it done from a mohawk entrance as well as just from incredible edges! I prefer the 3-turn myself.

Meanwhile, back to nerd_on_ice: is this helping you? Everyone's said to focus on the basics, practice, and be patient. Maybe increasing your speed and the ability to control it will help you overcome the fear?

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Okay, I am taking off from a LBI edge (CCW rotation), but I believe I am "cheating the jump" although I am not clear on how you can get into the proper position without swinging your leg around before take off.

Once again, I didn't mean to hijack a thread, but it's nice to know that many of us are working on the same elements. I would hope that my clarifications are helping anyone who has the same questions as me. I wish I could offer more specific encouragement, nerd_on_ice, but I'm afraid I just don't have the same amount or reaction to fear as you do. All I can offer is that pain is a part of the process, and that it's worth it.

It also may have to do with how much you skate. I try to skate daily, for at least two hours. That's a lot of practice time. You say that you've been skating for three and a half years and that it takes you months to master an element, but I wonder if you're really just not giving yourself enough credit. Perhaps you're right on schedule, your hours are just spaced out more than mine. I mean, as an extreme example, the day I learned my waltz jump, I spent eleven hours on the ice. Eleven hours. And my landings still need work.

Perhaps then, you could find more time on the ice? I've been told by coaches and skaters alike that if you have the talent, it's just a matter of hours in the ice.

Definitely helpful, yes! Thank you! Considering that the best ideas I could come up with on my own were "change hobbies" or "get brain transplant," I really appreciate everyone's suggestions. And I think you ("all y'all") are right that getting more comfortable with speed & power will help me overall. Besides, doing a salchow is all well & good but if I can only ever handle going into it from a standstill, my options are still quite limited! I'll talk to my coach at my lesson on Thursday and see what she thinks. I know she would be open to me taking a couple of lessons from someone else, so I will consider that as well. It's a great idea but we'll have to see if my budget can absorb it.

"If" you have the talent might be a big "if" in my particular case, but I do think you have a point. My skating time has never been extremely consistent; I'm an adjunct instructor at a university 35 miles away, so my schedule is bizarre and my budget is tiny. This semester, for instance, I'm limited to skating the public sessions Tuesday and Thursday mornings and Friday afternoons for a max of 2 hours each time. I find it hard to stick it out on a session if I'm feeling discouraged or if I know I have other work waiting for me at home. So if I make it a priority to skate that full 6 hours a week, that will likely help me.

Sometimes we need to have a different person teach us a particular move in order to "get" it. It's just the way that they can explain it or help us to get it. That happened to me with the salchow (imagine that!) I didn't get it until I got a private coach and she broke it down for me. After a few weeks, I got it!

We are doing the same with the backspin (and spins, the flip, the loop.....)

See what I mean? You are not alone in this! She is also getting my position fixed on 3-turns (my arms were "wrong") and getting me encouraged to speed up on my jumps. Everything is slooooowly improving. Not quickly, but I'm ok with that.

I wish we could all get together and skate together! We would have so much fun! Hang in there and try not to get frustrated-it will all come together. Talk with your coach. Have you prioritized and set goals? My coach had me do that the first time we met and the following week I had to give her my goals and dreams for the year! It gave us something to work for, though.

ps-I still don't like to fall

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

I sooo feel for you!
The Salchow has been a bit of a challenge for me as well, not because of fear but just because I tend to rush through it (as well as a couple of other tricks) and make my life harder because of it!

I believe that you're trying... I too don't fall... actually it became sort of a challenge for my coach to try to make me fall. He finally succeeded when having me do a backward spiral-back lunge combination.

You sound almost like a dear friend of mine! She has the same problems, though she'd never even concider even trying a Salchow at this point, so you're ahead already!
I found what helped her is steady encouragement and no pressure... so who cares if it takes a bit longer to learn a new trick and so what if you can't make them with as much speed as other skaters? Are you having fun doing it? If so that's really all that counts!!! That and that you're doing your personal best... and that's what it sounds like to me. So don't sweat it... and once you relax about it the rest will come too.

One more thing... if you aren't already, have someone tape not just your competition but also your practices. We tend to be our own worst critics and most of the time without even realizing how much we improve with time!!! A tape will show you.

Wow, now that could have come out of my mouth... a lot of times I feel exactly the same!

Then get mad... no seriously, I find that useful every now and then... gives you that push you need to get back on track!

Have you ever tried the sal in a harness? For some coaches, it doesn't even occur to them to put anyone in a harness for less than an axel, but I think that for a number of adults, it can really help, mostly with the fear issue. If you know that someone's there to 'catch' you, you can put more oomph into going for it. Maybe if you try it a few times, and you realize (with your body as well as your brain) that the world's not going to end if you go at it with a ounce more speed, or get an inch of deeper knee bend for the take-off, perhaps you can then put that little bit extra into it when you're not in the harness, because you can tell yourself that you've 'done it' before.


Kevin, there's no 'spin' of any sort in the sal. The 3-turn before the jump should be fairly shallow (especially since most of a beginner's experience with 3's before learning jumps are the ones that start and end on a line...not shallow at all), and you want to really check the backwards edge before the jump. At the end of the back edge, there's a 'hook'...the edge will curve to the inside sharply as you take off. You're pulling your free leg through at the same time, and pulling your arms in. The hook is the start of your rotation--it begins on the ice, but you complete it in the air.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson

www.signingtime.com ~sign language fun for all!

I have had this thought more times than I can count. Oddly, none of the adult skaters I'm acquainted with (half a dozen or so) is working on testing; one of them competes ISI only occasionally; that one is the only who even has a coach, to the best of my knowledge. I'm not taking issue with their choices but it would be nice to hang out with people who have goals similar to mine.

That's true! I had a big burst of determination for New Year's and made some real improvements.

I'm sure I will say this over again later but I really appreciate all of you who have responded. Your comments are so encouraging and useful.

Can you provide either a diagram or a video clip? I'm pretty decent at shallow 3-turns. It's actually the long 3-turns (on a very non-shallow curve my coach insists) on that give me trouble. I can do them all day long while skating around the ice in no particular pattern. I think what I might be calling the spin you might be calling the hook. Without a pattern or another skater to look at I can't tell you whether or not I did it correctly. Since I originally did not have any questions, I'm fairly certain I understood the concepts of what I did.

nerd_on_ice,

The fear thing on salchows....I get this with my nemisis the backspin. I understand what your saying because I have feelings similar to what you describe. Some days I can do them sorta but then I can go weeks being afraid. I'm not scared of axels, trying 2 sals or 2 loops, but I almost throw up working on backspins. Fear is a bad thing. All I can tell you is to break up the skill in parts and keep trying. I keep trying to like the experience of backspins....not that I can say I'm winning. Practice those 3 turns, salchows are about control in the entry. Watch skaters who can do salchows and think about what you saw. Pick skaters carefully for teachers. Ask your coach to show you and imitate her/him. I like doing this with my coach as they do it. It helps me pick up on their rhythm of skills.

Chico

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"I truly believe, when God created skating, he patted himself on the back."

I wish. I'm not as technically savvy as some on this board, but it really takes going out and checking the tracing you leave on the ice. Too much curve on the ice, and you're 'spinning' it, probably by 'swinging' your leg around, rather than through. Just like on the waltz or axel, you want to lift straight through with your free knee, like you're going up the stairs. It's the concept of, say, punching someone in the nose straight from your shoulder, rather than swinging your arm around from the side. There should be a certain amount of a 'J' hook to the take-off tracing, compared to the edge coming in, but not going so far as to curve back on itself.

Actually, I was able to track down a clip from Sk8stuff.com, and I am fairly certain that I've done it correctly if the clip is to be believed. There is definitely a complete revolution after the 3 and into the take off. Or at least it looks like what I would term a revolution, again, perhaps there is some aspect of the terminology I am missing.

Granted this is NOT a single, I was paying attention to the footwork for the take off. Landing of course is a standard RBO landing.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_salchow.htm

no...watch it again slowly..there is no full revolution on the ice.

Then what would you call that curve after the three turn? That's exactly what I did. Watching it slowly, I can see that it is not a full revolution. I was counting the momentum from the three turn. Admittedly, it sure looks like a fairly long turn.

Now, this is what I both see in the video, and what I did:

Left outside three turn, swing right foot around (this is what I was previously calling the spin or the revolution, ie, what was confusing me), launch, rotate, RBO landing. Is this or is this not a salchow? If it is, then I was successful in doing it. If not, how can I still be confused at this point? It really doesn't seem to be that complicated.

Your cautiousness is natural. If you're not thinking of being a pro or anything like that, then slow and steady progression is absolutely fantastic. Once you get real comfortable with doing the things you do, then there might be a time when you think you're going to start working with something else. It's all part of the fun of skating....each time you're learning, you're writing the chapter of a book. When you've learned the skill, you complete the chapter of the book. For me, I reckon most of the fun is the act of chipping away at things .... because once you're good at it, it becomes boring...or at least...not as special as when you first mastered it. Although, with skating....there's so many different components to learn that it's kind of hard to get bored with it hehe

I don't know you well enough to answer that

A 'Kevin' ... taken from the sketch 'Kevin and Perry' which was made into the film 'Kevin and Perry Go Large'.

A Kevin starts out as a normal, happy 12 year old. He loves his mum, is polite, pretty much does what he's asked to do, dresses nicely and goes to bed at a reasonable hour. HOWEVER when the clock strikes midnight on the eve of his birthday he turns into a 'Kevin'. He grows a backwards facing baseball cap, baggy pants, straggly hair and attitude to spare. He yells at him parents, everything is so unfair, he's lazy, thinks that they're treating him like a slave and loses the power of speech except the 'grunt'. He can still be polite to his friends' parents but at home he drives his own parents to distraction. It's called the 'teenage years'. Judging by my horse's behaviour in her 'teen' years (about 4-7 in horses but that varies) I think that the female varient should be 'Saffy'

Hope that explains it

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The best whisper is a click