There's an adult skater who sometimes comes to the public sessions where I work. She's passed Adult Bronze MIF and is getting ready to take the FS. My issue is that she is going around helping kids, and spending more than just a few minutes doing it. She says that she just likes to help, and I know that's true, but one of the ways I get new students is doing the same thing (I do it anyway, but it does sometimes get me a new student). She told me that the people she helps ask her for lessons, and she tells them she's not a coach and that there are good coaches available at the rink. Nevertheless, I feel like she's possibly interfering with my potential business, because anyone she has worked with (she's spending 15 to 20 minutes per kid - 5 min wouldn't bother me), is getting for free what they would have to pay me for. I don't think I can discuss it with her because I know she is easily offended, and if the skating director is not there at the time, I don't think there is much he can do either. Suggestions?

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My first thought is that if you do it too, you can't complain when someone else does. You just need to get there first, I suppose.

My second is that if you want to try to scare her away, point out the liability she is incuring. If someone were to get fall/ gethurt while she was helping them, even though she is not a coach as an adult and a "skater with experience" I think someone could easily turn on her.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

It's a tricky situation for you. I can understand how you feel, because teaching skating is your livelyhood, but at the same time I don't think you have a right to say to someone "You can't give people skating advices during public session, because it hurts my potential business". It's a public session. People socialize, do whatever.

Tell her that you are a coach and you're looking for new students, and wouldn't it be great that when you get some new students that maybe she could be your unpaid helper and start to learn what it's like to be a (real) coach?

I would never suggest that she solicit for you

I would think she's doing you and other coaches a favor. By spending a little individual time working with kids and showing them a thing or two, she's hooking them on skating. But she's not teaching private lessons, so if they want real private lessons, they will have to look elsewhere.

Otherwise, if someone chooses to spend their time at the rink helping others, I don't think it's really anone else's place to stop them. She has every right to do that if it's what she enjoys doing.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

I help kids all the time on public sessions, but when they ask for lessons, I always point them to the coaches list....if they ask me how to do something, I'm not going to ignore them, that would stink.

I do it too. A lot of skaters love to show each other how they were taught to do things, and a lot of skaters approach other skaters to ask how to do something. It's one of the few social aspects of this sport.

You might be able to get a a rink to post a policy barring such things - would make the rink a lot less friendly to ordinary skaters.

Anyway, I think beginners have most of their trouble because they don't realize they should lace tighter. Rental counters should explain that.

Why not wear a jcaket with this on the back in big letters:
Or would that look too desperate?

OTOH, if you as a certified coach helps someone without first checking they have no coach, aren't you violating "professional ethics" rules?

We run into this at my rink as well. People are allowed to coach during publics and if money is exchanged, the rink gets their commission HOWEVER if people just ask for help (i.e. no money changes hands AND the person teaching disclaims that they are not coaching/i.e. "a coach") then there is no rule against it. I get asked all the time and usually don't mind (I let them know if I am busy, plus I tell them they can take lessons either public or private from the excellent staff in house).

You really can't stop people from doing that on publics if there is no policy banning it.

What you could try is approaching her and ask her to direct the parents to the counter to inquire about private lessons (just in general).

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Although frustrating to you, I agree with the many of the other posters on this one.

As long as she's not soliciting students or claiming to be a coach, both of which you stated she's not doing, then I really don't see any harm in her helping.

First, thank you all for your thoughtful replies! I've decided to leave it alone. I much prefer good will and lack of conflict where I work. Maybe someone who doesn't know her will step in, or the skating director might see her if she comes early enough.

I'm allowed to do it, and have been encouraged to do it in the past! I'm on the skating school staff.

I agree. The thing that bothers me is that she spends so much time with a single skater, that it might as well be a paid private lesson. I'm not quibbling about 5 or even 10 minutes, but past that, I feel she's stepping on my toes.

We have known each other for many years and she knows I'm a coach and on staff at that particluar rink. I couldn't take her on as a helper - too much to go into here and now, but I could not do that. I do my own soliciting . There's nothing wrong with soliciting unless it's someone else's student. I had a coach get pissy with me and cause no end of trouble at another rink (when I was on staff there) because she saw me give my card to an adult skater who had had a lesson with her. Yes, I did that - because the adult skater had her first ever lesson with me, had lost my card, and asked me for it when she saw me again. She doesn't have a coach - but has lessons with various coaches as the mood takes her. We don't own our students!

I agree, except, as I said above, it's not a little time. That wouldn't bother me at all.

And she does do that - that's one of the things that makes it difficult - she is only doing what she enjoys, and she is trying to do it right.

All staff coaches have to wear skating school jackets that ID us.
The people I approach are clearly not taking lessons.

Occasionally, I'll offer to help someone who looks like they've never skated before, and they'll tell me they had a lesson with "x", whereupon, I'll apologize and say what a great coach "x" is. If I offer advice to anyone who seems to have had lessons, I begin with "Are you taking lessons?" BTW, I just lost two students, sisters, to a coach who jumped in when I was running late. Even though their English was pretty good, and they liked me (per the parents, and their behavior), if I spoke Russian, I wouldn't have lost them. IMO, that coach should have politely refused to sub for me without my permission, but the skating director would not support that. I'm not about to generate bad feelings in the place I love over something like that.

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I'm not sure if I agree with all of the posts here. The PSA is fairly clear on ethics and free lessons are one of the things that are a no no. Now if the rink offers up a coach (any coach and allows all rink coaches to participate) for a free 10 minute lesson, that's a different story and they encourage things like that. Do they just let all coaches run out onto public sessions and try to get students? Just seems a bit of a gray area.

She can't be your unpaid helper because that would be soliciting for a coach. But you said that's not an option anyway.

I think I might approch the adult from a standpoint of insurance. It's one thing to offer help to a public session kid but when the kid starts following directions from an uninsured, unqualified person, the rink and that person would end up with a liability if an accident occurs. She should be told that anyway. I've seen too many accidents where the parent sues everyone.

LW

This is a HUGE gray area...if the rink permits it (from an insurance standpoint) then there is nothing that can be done to ban it unless the rink steps in.

I know a coach (credentialed from PSA) cannot "give away" free lessons. As far as I know there is nothing prohibiting the general public from doing this as long as the rink permits it.

When I am asked for help (and I never offer unless there is a safety problem), I always ask if they are taking privates or public lessons. I don't want to step on anyone's toes. If they are taking lessons, I ask what they have been taught, usually the child has forgotten something and needs something demonstrated (3-turn etc).

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Deleted...

That's an awful message to send to her and rude to boot. Bronze MIF and Free isn't "barely FS".

Honestly, if this woman is on a public session you really have no rights. Public ice is public ice. If it was a club's freestyle session that's completely different. But even if you're on staff at the skating school, it dosen't matter on public ice. Then someone from the rink would have to step in. But if they don't have a problem with it, you shouldn't either, no matter how long she's spending with anyone. I understand how you can see how she might be "poaching" your potential business, but I guess I agree with the poster that said you need to get there first.

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"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"

dbny: I would leave it alone. I mean... I occasionally would help out a fellow beginning skater on a public session... especially if they come up to me and ask me for help and I'm not busy at the time. But I always tell them if they want to learn how to skate to go thru the skating school.

If you must act in some way, well... if there's some way of suggesting to this adult skater that she suggests to skaters and parents of skaters to going thru the skating school (which is NOT soliciting, BTW!!! It's a perfectly acceptable answer given that you're not soliciting for a specific coach...but for the school itself...)... well, would that be an acceptable solution?

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I don't think that encouraging skaters to check out the skating program is soliciting persay but rather a way of promoting all the great programs that the rink has to offer. If through these programs skaters find themselves a coach, whether that coach be you or someone else involved with the club, then that was entirely their own doing, which did not involve solicitation of any sort.

You guys feel free to go on about this, but as I already said quite clearly above - I am leaving it alone. I'm done with it; it does not bother me anymore, since I've decided on what I think is the best course of action.

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It's an interesting issue, though--I run into it all the time! There's a gal (adult) at my rink who is a bit "off" (and I don't mean just skating) and is at about a Basic 4 level and is constantly giving skating advice to others, including my students (and not in an exchanging ideas way--in a "you're doing that wrong, I will show you the right way" way). Because of her issues I don't want to tear her head off but I have had to say things like, "Did you know so-and-so was my student? I appreciate your trying to help her but it's very confusing to her to get two different sets of advice." If I see her talking to my students (or anyone else who starts looking stressed) I'll often go over and jump into the conversation and say, "Gee, I always teach it this way!" or something like that but I'm not really sure what to do when I see her doing the same thing to little kids or new adult skaters. It's a tough issue.

BTW, as far as I know, "giving away" lessons is discouraged by the PSA but I don't think it's forbidden under the ethics rules--in this economy I'm inclined to think of giving a couple minutes to a kid who asks how to spin as volunteer work which might encourage a kid to take group lessons!

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You miss 100% of the shots you never take.--Wayne Gretzky

It also only governors those who are IN the PSA (and to some extent skating coaches who are not, but whose skate schools who have asked for the same code). PSA ethics in no way at all govern the general public, so the woman from the original post isn't at all in any violation of them. It would be like if I walked around outside HR block asking people if they wanted me to do their taxes. The advice might not be as good, but it's cheaper... you decide.

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-Jessi
What I need is a montage...
Visit my skating journal or my Youtube videos (updated with 2 new videos Sept 26, 2009)

I'm intrigued by the original situation, in that, the person receiving the free "lesson", do you think they realize what they're getting? Do they expect that when they show up to skate that someone is always going to help them?

It might be worthwhile to talk to your skating director and see if there is a way that the skaters could be refreshed on who are certified coaches of the rink and how it works to get a Lesson.

I giggled at the idea of skating around with a big flashing billboard of a coat that said COACH on the back, but there's a bit of truth in that, sometimes people just don't know what a lesson is, or what a coach does.

This brings to mind an incident that happened about two weeks ago during a freestyle session at my rink. One young girl (about 8-9 years old) was skating and had asked me for advice on doing a 3-turn; she forgot how to do them. I asked her who her coach was. She said she was only in group lessons. I showed her then watched her struggle through it once then she proceed to work on her "jumps" (which were really something else KWIM?).... She then stated that "she was a really good skater and was now teaching her friends how to skate."



I'm sure she is teaching them all of her bad habits as well.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

Some of you may find what I'm about to say selfish, but the concept of people "helping" people (as in total strangers) on public sessions kind of does get on my nerves for one main reason.

My rink has public session basically all day, every day, as did the rink where I skated in grad school, and it's never crowded (and often you can even control the music). Some coaches give lessons on this time. I will not skate on this ice unless I'm in a pinch because I am ALWAYS approached by people, mostly kids and the occasional adult, who see that I'm a good skater, come up and talk to me, and expect me to spend my time teaching/showing them stuff because other adults have done it for them in the past. It's usually the same couple of kids and an adult at my current rink (the kids are home schooled and there ALL THE TIME), and I know the few adults who are around who they probably do get help from (they're mid level beginner-bronze or purely recreational skaters who are either retired, don't work during the day, skate during their lunch, or whatever). If I were just there on my free time, having a good time, there to exercise and socialize like many of our skaters around during the day, I wouldn't mind it. But for those of you who know me and know what my schedule is like, when I have time to make it to the rink, it is VERY limited. I am there for me and I am there to work, not socialize and mess around.

I don't like having to look like a mean person because I don't want to spend my very limited skating time (and the money I am spending to be on the ice) helping others. I don't mind other people doing this if that's what they enjoy doing while they are at the rink. But I think the fact that some adults at my rink do this has set the "expectation" to some kids (or other adults even) who regularly attend public sessions that any adult on the ice who knows how to skate will help them or their kid out for free.

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2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

You don't have to be mean or even be perceived as mean. When I work the weekend sessions, there are always kids who come to me and ask for help. If I happen to be free for a few minutes, I do help them a bit, but most of the time I have to turn them down. If you do it nicely, with a brief explanation, there's no harm done. "I'm sorry, honey, I can't help you right now, I have to work/practice."

One reason I've decided to let this particular matter go, is that I love helping people learn to skate. I'm very lucky that I can coach and earn money doing it, and also that I work in a place that encourages picking up students on the public sessions. Many of the students that I've given a few lessons to have signed up for our LTS program, so what I'm doing is good for everyone's business. I know that the adult skater I've written about (complained about here) also loves to help. She does not want to be a coach and she truly means no harm. I would not want to be the one to deprive her of that pleasure. If I feel annoyed about it when it happens again (which it will), I'm just going to look the other way and remind myself that I like working in a pleasant environment.

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There is nothing mean about telling people that you are "training." If they get put off then that is their problem, not yours. I say it as well and I don't believe anyone has gotten huffy or ticked about it. I just say, "I'm sorry, I can't help you right now, I'm busy training for my next competition" and leave it at that. If they keep bugging me, I say it again, put my headphones on and ignore them.

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

1. I had another reason for suggesting the SKATING COACH advertisement on the back of a jacket.

Many rinks ask coaches to wear a jacket distinctive to that rink - but new skaters don't realize that's what it is. Any of us who no longer stumble on every other step are sometimes asked by complete beginners if we are coaches.

2. For those who love teaching, there are many rinks that have volunteer programs where uncertified teachers can help. The one I volunteered with (Fort Dupont, DC http://fdia.org) is one of several in the DC/MD/VA that have such programs. Some of them (e.g., Cabin John, MD; Mount Vernon, VA) set up apprentice programs so the most promising volunteers can become real coaches at those rinks. Many provide training for the assistant instructors.

(Perhaps the O.P. could direct the helpful skater to such a program. Would get them out of the rink some of the time. But if they became a coach, they would still be competition. )

Even for those of us not good enough to become real coaches, teaching is a lot of fun. You also learn to deal with various disabilities and behavior patterns, and adapt to different learning styles. It may help decide whether teaching is something you'd like to do.

BTW, I've never tried it but most hockey coaches are uncertified or minimally certified volunteers. Becoming a certified hockey coach involves less time and money then a figure skating coach. Very few hockey coaches get paid, but if you love to teach, you can.