I bet adults who passed all the MIF tests through Senior skate fast! LOL!

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I watched the video too. It's not 'that' slow. I agree. But I believe that phoenix could potentially go heaps faster than that. I think what's holding back the speed is the push-out of the pushing skate is not getting enough power on the push ...... this is also equivalent to not pushing out fast enough. But I also think that the speed will normally come with time anyway. Like, instead of pushing out slowly (with little power) like a sunday stroll......eventually, the skater will know how to go faster by really getting in there and do hard and fast and lengthy push out.

Well, my partner and I are working on Novice Moves right now. We are both in our 50s, but no matter what we do, or how hard we try...our moves never have that same buttery flow like the kids? I've seen a few Adults test Sr. Moves, and it doesn't look as fast as the kids.

Actually, this is a good case in point: I passed my Gold Moves pretty quickly and easily. Then I thought that I'd just slide over to the Standard Track and test Intermediate, because at the time (with the exception of one move) all the moves on the Adult Gold and Intermediate Standard were the same. Boy, was I blown away, because the "standard" was so much higher; they had to be faster and much more confident. It was like they were completely different moves, even though exactly the same, and it took me four tries to pass that test. So, what's the difference?

I actually did the opposite, I passed Intermediate several months before I passed Gold. I really didn't find much different between the two myself, because I always tried to do both tests with equal power/confidence. Which I'm trying to bring through into Novice....Novice moves is hell on ice!

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Well it's a heck of a lot faster and more powerful than I could muster up. But honestly, my dd is working on that dance and she looks much faster (and quicker) and when a judge got her out on the ice to tell her what she wanted (long story why a judge was giving my dd a lesson) she yelled at her to push even harder. This is just what I know from watching DD learn this dance is that it's much quicker than what you were doing which isn't the same thing as speed and power necesarily. I've always known you can be quick and not have power, but it kind of looks like you have power but are not quick. But I am not a coach or a judge or someone who would even attempt the Killian (remember I can't do the freaking mohawk in the swing dance)

j

I think this is what I was trying to say in my post - you have power, but your feet are not quick, not striking the ice in that fast, quick, punchy, Killian way.

In dance we talk about certain skaters being better at Tango or Waltz or Killian or whatever. To me phoenix looks more like a waltzy or foxtrot-y skater than a "Quick-March" skater. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is - unfortunately for test-taking, you have to try to be everything, or at least fake it for that few minutes of the test.

In dance also we have the Adult and the Standard track. On the Adult track you don't have to do any solos and the tests are marked a few points below the Standard track. I'm assuming you are taking the tests "Standard" phoenix?

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By "across", yes, I mean the short axis.

There are also a lot of young skaters who grew up skating and achieve Sr level, but never look as fast or have the flow of the elites. Don't forget that when comparing to elite skaters, you are comparing to those who are far beyond the level of the highest proficiency tests. With adults, though, (meaning those who never skated as children), I think the biggest problem is that there is always just a little holding back, a little discomfort, and that is manifested as a deficiency in flow.

That's not at all surprising. Of course Adult Gold would seem like nothing special after passing Intermediate. It is judged to a lower standard. You went from high to low; a piece of cake compared to going from low to high.

I agree. I also think you look a bit careful and could use more attack with this dance, particularly on the Choctaw, which does not look well enough defined; maybe needs deeper edges. Haven't you passed the Paso Doble already? I would think that if you passed that then you should have the quickness and attack needed for the Kilian. Maybe you just need more time to gain more confidence on it.

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icedancer2 & jskater49 have hit the nail on the head, at least for this dance. The lack of "crispness" is what failed my test for me. And you are most definitely right icedancer2--I am naturally a 'waltzy' flowy type of skater, & have a far more difficult time w/ the quick dances. Case in point--I worked on the Blues (an edgy, flowy, swoopy dance) for 2 weeks, and passed it with points over. This Killian--we're going on 2 years. *sigh*

And yes, I'm testing standard track, which means I have to solo it as well as partner.

And btw, I haven't passed the Paso yet, in fact I've just barely started to work on it. At which point the quickness/attack issue will rear its head again.

I also agree w/ the others that say we adults have "something" about us that make us look less.....'something' than many of the kids. It may be a confidence or ease on the ice that just comes with a lifetime of being in skates. I know for a fact that on this Killian I definitely rein it in because I'm afraid I'll hit the wall, afraid of the depth of edge required at the speed required (though that's getting better), and I definitely tend to hesitate going into the choctaw. As someone else said, this dance is so much harder than it looks!

Um. . . Yeah. Me, too. . . I guess there's something to be said for teaching your body new movements and a new medium (ice) when the body is still developing. It's just like it's not impossible for someone to learn a language after puberty and not have an accent, but it's extremely rare.

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Regarding adults appearing slower than the kids: It is true that adults generally are slower than the kids, and everybody is slower than the elite skaters. But I think there is an illusion at work too. If you look at a little kid skating the same speed as an adult, the kid looks like they are going faster. Maybe it has something to do with perspective. It's like the moon looking bigger on the horizon than straight overhead. It depends on what you're comparing it against.

The "language" analogy is really good. Perhaps, it's the same difference learning language as a kid and naturally picking it up, and learning a new language as an adult, which can be difficult. Again, easier for some, but, perhaps more difficult for others, such as myself.

Kander,

You are right. Context is everything! That's why I asked Phoenix to ask her coach, in terms of the speed, who she is being compared to? Perhaps, the coach is just comparing her to the "standard of that particular dance?" It has to be fast, crisp, and confident; maybe there is a wider window of dancing this dance to standard then we think. In other words, maybe it's not a matter of skating it as fast and sure as some of the kids and elites, but, rather, skating it up to the "dance," so it looks confident and pleasant.

Adult Nationals is a great place to really contextualize ourselves as Adults--to be able to have an idea of how we are doing. It can become really discouraging at times when you are constantly training with kids and elites. I had a total melt down on the ice this season, because we were on practice ice with Melissa Gregory and Denise Petrukov week after week, and on day they came wizzing by us, and she looked so totally beautiful that I had this "crisis" of "Why was I even bothering, and that I really didn't belong out on the ice at all." It was a very deep "why am I bothering at all" moment, which reduced me to tears. So, I had to spend some time getting my "context thing" back into place. It's so hard when there is so much that you desire to accomplish and are already up there in age, as my partner and I are.

Actually, this is why we put together the Protopopov Pairs clinic for the summer Adult Week in Lake Placid. It began 4 years ago when Lee and I looked at each other and said "how much longer can we do this (skating pairs)? So, knowing that the Protopopovs were in their 70's and still practicing 5 hours a day, I said "let's go work with them and see!" So, we did and have been working with them every summer since then, and it has been a really good thing for us interms of "contexualizing" exactly what is possible for us for the future. Yes, I know they were Olympians and that this has a lot to do with why they are still skating incredibly beautifully in their
70's, but you'd be surprised that there are really a lot of similarities, too, because after all the body is the body and it will only yeild to so much as time goes on. What we've learned from them is that if you pay attention to your body in many ways, diet, excersize, happiness, relaxing, ect...that it will always yeild more than you think!

Anyway, just one last thought: IMHO, because of everything that's being said here, I really think that there needs to be an "Adult" version of the IJS. Does anyone agree, or disagree with this sentiment?

When I look at the video again and then look at competition compulsories (also on Youtube), it's steps 3 and 4 of the dance that show the power and flow and speed. That's the two edges, left and right after the progressive.

Someone once said to me that the Killian without the choctaw is just a stroking exercise and that's true. Although these are just two edges, the Killian is a polka, and they have to be powerful, fast, bouncy and light. They're also edgier and lobier, BIG left and BIG right using every stretch of knee and extension that you've got. Get right up, chin to the sky, smile and work it.

When I went into a competitive rink and had to skate with mirrors I was horrified at my extension. I know I look better now, and I think I skate just about the same speed, I know I do because of my program timing, but everyone thinks I got faster. Push, squeeze the butt and get that leg all the way out. I'm currently going through it with crosscuts, to get the maximum extension for a better look. I can go as fast as I need, but it looks "adult".

I also use to skate basic stroking in dance hold with my old dance coach. He skated at the speed we had to go, which was much faster than what I thought I needed. That gives your body the mental memory of what fast and powerful should feel like.

I do like your dance though, you have neat feet and the choctaw is good and placed well, and thanks again for putting up video.

It can be done; not from a standstill, but one of my coach's favourite pieces of torture is to require me to skate as fast as possible up one side of the rink, gaining speed with runs round the end, then push of and HOLD the edge, free leg extended, the whole of the opposite side of the rink. Then repeat, this time on the other foot. One side is usually better than the other!


And that is one reason why ice dance is harder than free skating - free skaters can select their music to suit their particular style; dancers, except in their free dance, can't, but have to skate well to every style - waltz, blues, foxtrot, march, samba....

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To the person who said "adult skaters will never skate with the same power/speed as an elite", I agree and disagree at the same time. I've been to watch competitions in our area (junior and senior ladies) and there is a marked difference between Junior and JUNIOR and Senior and SENIOR. For example, Fumie Suguri came to get an IJS critique to one of our local competitions. She warmed up with the last group of Senior ladies (who were the top 4 after the SP) and she made them look like they were skating through mud. Two of these ladies made it to Sectionals later that year and one even made it to Nationals.

I think an adult who works very hard on their stroking, edgework, power, etc can look like a Junior or a Senior, but it takes a special skater overall to be a JUNIOR or a SENIOR level skater. They are hard to replicate.

In your opinion, why do you think it is so hard let's say for an Adult (who never skated as a kid) to replicate even a JUNIOR or a SENIOR level skater?

Having said that, do you think there should be a little "wiggle room" in the IJS, or an IJS tailored more towards what Adults actually do? Really, I'm very interested in what other Adult Skaters think about the IJS at this point as it is applied to Adults. For example:

Last year at AN in Chicago the Pair Teams put out somewhere around 26 lift all together (I can't remember the exact number,) but fewer than 3/4 of these lifts were given any credit, even though the woman were up there in the lift with many of them being over head. After inquiring about it, one technical specialist said that it was because the men's arms weren't totally locked out. Then another technical specialist said it was because once the woman hit the top of the lift, through the rotation, the mens' arms came down (were are talking an inch or so here.) Clearly, the technical specialists were treating us with the exact same rules as they apply to the elites. However, the difference being that it's a freakin miracle that the adult woman are really up there at all, and both the men and woman should be given some credit, even though the lifts weren't flawless.

Then there is the rule about the men's free leg having to be parallel to the ice when they are in a sit spin for it to count. How many adult men can really pull this off like the elites? Very few, with the exception of a few of the younger Adult competitors.

Again, this begs the question of "context" and how fast if really fast?

I think that's the very reason why IJS is only used for Gold and Masters in U.S. adult skating. Whenever positions (i.e.,high sitspins) and jumps (i.e.,waltz jumps and pre-rotated toeloops) that don't count under IJS comprise a significant percentage of the programs, it makes the system less viable. Not to mention the issue of how to score a half rink footwork or spiral sequence when full ice surface coverage is an assumed requirement for a level 1.

For Pre-bronze, Bronze and maybe even Silver, I think it would make sense to develop a modified version of IJS that allocates values to these elements. However, as a Gold skater, I personally consider it an achievement and a sign of respect to be judged by the same standards as the standard track skaters. Sure, it hurts to look at your scoresheet and find out that you apparently can't do a single toeloop. But on the other hand, the feeling I got when I saw that an element I did got the same score as a high level skater was so priceless that I wouldn't give it up for the world. I feel like that's the ultimate validation as an adult skater.

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I understand what you are saying, Double, and on a personal note I prefer the IJS over the 6.0 system; the reason being that it really is a challenge.

However, like Tech said in a previous post, it's really hard to find an Adult Skater who can truly skate up to a JUNIOR and SENIOR level and give off the same appearance as a competitive kid skater, or elite skater, but then, on the other hand, we are being judged with a system that is designed for elite skaters. This is somewhat of a contradiction, but I suppose if we are all being held against the same judging system that it actually all comes out in the wash in the end.

Anyway, just wondering what other people thought about it...

6.0 was used for elite skaters and we were judged under that for years. IJS makes you do what you do well, why should it be modified? 6.0 wasn't modified for adults and we did fine under that. I would rather know what I did right and what I did wrong, I skate for a challenge to get better each time.

I prefer IJS and if my sitspin isn't low enough I will work to make it lower, if my toe loop is pre rotated I will learn to do it correctly. I don't think it is a terrible burden to ask for things to be done with good technique. If you are skating at a gold or masters level it doesn't seem unreasonable.

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ITA about the Elite Junior/Senior comparison. The other day I looked at young lady in her teens who was working on Junior moves, and I was amazed at how horrifically slow her overall skating was, not just the new moves she was learning... now, don't get me wrong - everything was technically correct but just low power and limited lean into the edges.

I think to get the speed, you really have to experiment a lot and push your boundaries....If you are constantly willing to try to push the limits of how far you can lean on the edge without falling over AND not be afraid to fall or crash into the wall, then you will be become a faster, better skater. You also learn how to crash more gracefully at speed. The other thing is not to be embarrassed or fearful of making mistakes or falling - I think this is the number one thing that holds people back - being afraid to make errors - and this is not entirely age dependent, but more personality dependent - there are plenty of young skaters out there that are terrified to make mistakes and it holds them back everyday.

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I agree, and even though, as adults, many of us have physical challenges that make it more difficult, IJS gives you options. Since you know exactly what counts and what doesn't, you can strategize to work around your weaknesses. For example, if you know your sitspin isn't quite low enough, it's possible to do an entire program without a sitspin and still get decent points for your spins, especially if you can do your other spins well and learn a few difficult variations on them.

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"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

About what you said above for the 6.0 system, of course, this is true. However, there was a lot more subjectivity and leeway in the "exactitude" of how an element were performed for both the elites and the adults.

I don't think that you can compare the two systems in this way, because the scrutiny involved with the IJS is exacting within inches and degrees, which I pointed out above in the case of what happened with the pairs lifts in Chicago and with the example of the sit spin.

IMHO, I really believe that an adult skater who puts out a sit spin that is centered, has the right amount of rotations should be given credit for it even if he, or she, is not exactly parallel to the ice in the sit position. Yes, I know that they are given credit and that the deduction will show up on the GOE for a less then perfect position. However, that wasn't the case with the majority of pair lifts that were performed in Chicago; because they weren't "perfect" they didn't exist AT ALL--no credit AT ALL, even though they WERE executed, but less then perfect.

I suppose the question is why would a skater who performs and axel, but falls still be given base credit with a minus GOE and a deduction for the fall, but an overhead lift, which is less then the perfect standard, but where the woman is clearly overhead with the correct amount of rotations with no fall, is given absolutely NO credit at all?

Didn't vesperholly?

I agree with this. I think that is very discouraging not to get any credit and I know this is fighting words for some, but I do not believe adults should be judged by the same standards as elite skaters. If you want to be judged by the higher standards, I'm pretty sure there is no age limit at the senior level.

j

ITA.

At least for this season, IJS has been modified such that certain moves that may have received zero credit will now just get called as level 1. To wit, in pairs: "If the minimum requirement of a lift is fulfilled, but the arms of the man are not fully extended, the lift becomes a Level 1." This is a welcome change from it not being counted at all. I believe similar language is in effect for spiral sequences in that it is easy to get at least a level 1.

And ISU *has* modified IJS for adults. In Oberstdorf, credit was given to the lower level pair teams who did elements that had not existed (to my knowledge) up to that point.
These include the throw waltz jump (1Wth, worth 1.0 points; the throw axel, 1ATh, is worth 2.0 points) and the forward pivot spiral (PiF1, worth 1.2; the back inside death spiral, BiDS1, is worth 2.8 points). USFSA should add these elements to their computers.

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[QUOTE=lovepairs;356494]In your opinion, why do you think it is so hard let's say for an Adult (who never skated as a kid) to replicate even a JUNIOR or a SENIOR level skater?

QUOTE]

As I stated initially, it takes a very special skater to be a JUNIOR or SENIOR skater. There are skaters which are Juniors and Seniors in the adult ranks - people that have the same quality as a Junior/Senior test level skater or second tier (non-international) competitive Juniors and Seniors. Only about 1% of ALL skaters will ever achieve that captial JUNIOR and SENIOR. They are special - have that special something that very, very few have. It's an inate ability, not something that can be learned like a skill. I see one or two adult skaters who have this and once they achieve a high level of MIF and/or dance tests, it will come out.

In order to look like a Junior or Senior level skater, your limits need to be pushed every day. Skate faster - to the edge of your comfort zone where you feel like you're going to fall off the edge. Push the elements to be bigger and stronger that they were just moments ago. Every moment skate to the limit of your ability.

IJS is made to let you know exactly what is good and what is bad. If you don't like the Mrs. Dash you got, you need to work on what got you the Mrs. Dash and really understand the scoring system. It's about what you do WELL when you compete, not about pushing something that's not quite technically correct.