Okay all, before you go into a tirade about why Pre Bronze skaters can't/ won't compete at AN, PLEASE read the text of the petition!
There are some very good reasons why Pre Bronze should be offered at AN and they are all here!
Thanks in advance for the support!

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/PreBrzFS/

BTW, apologies to our out of US skaters, but only USFS members can sign!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

I signed it. Good luck!

Thank you!!! We appreciate it!!!

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Done!

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Done. Good luck!

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"The only place where success comes before work is in a dictionary." -- Vidal Sasson

"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway." -- Unknown

I am curious: what were the arguments for/against this motion as presented in the Adult Committee meeting in Dallas. As with many things that weekend, it wasn't very well advertised so I wound up missing it.

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Whatever!

Thank you dbny and sk8er1964!!!
Den, the main objection was that there is a proposal on the table to implement the NJS at AN 2007 for Gold and Masters events and the time issue with that. From what I have heard, the NJS implementation was not passed at the BOD in October but sent back to committee. It will take a vote at GC to pass the NJS implementation.
However, with the dwindling numbers at AN and the fiasco that was Dallas,having us Pre Bronzers can help increase numbers and energy!!
And the reasons for Pre Bronze- read the petition text- it will tell you everything!!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

OK, signed. I hope to see you at AN next year!

I do support you pre-bronze skaters.....I was one not so long ago. In my limited experience,however, I do feel that Bronze is the lowest level that should be skated at AN. There is no other "Pre" category....what would be next..."Pre-silver" "Pre-Gold" "Pre-Masters"? All of which could have the exact same argument as yours.....

I expect to be in a similar situation next year...very possible that I wont qualify for silver...should I petition for a pre-silver event?

Practice....Practice...... If it is supposed to happen it will!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

What tirade? (I signed, BTW) You're asking for a reasonable correction of an oversight. The category didn't exist when the competition was created. The committee needs to address the needs of a huge portion of their skating population.

I tested/competed before there were Adult categories in USFSA. That's why I'm only a USFSA Preliminary level skater - I stopped testing USFSA when I found out I had no hope of winning a competition event. I switched to ISI-only because it was the better option for me as a 20-something. If the Adult tracks (or even just the comps) had existed, I probably would have stuck with the USFSA. I skated at a USFSA Dance/Freestyle club for years and loved it!

Good luck. I hope your petition passes and the committees realize the fairness of your request and the revenue-generation potential it represents.

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The difference is that you CAN compete at AN in Bronze, whereas the Pre Bronze skaters cannot compete there at all!

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I agree with MSF. (and should we create pre-bronze pairs as well?)

In the standard track for nationals, there is a threshold. Pre-preliminary, preliminary, and pre-juvenile are not eligible for nationals. The entry level is juvenile. (Junior Nats includes juvenile and intermediate levels, while Senior Nats includes novice, junior, and senior levels.) IMO, I believe the same base level should apply here.

Also, Adult Nationals is now Wed.-Sat. Adding pre-bronze (and whose freestyle test does NOT require a program) would make AN very lengthy and scheduling would be even more of a Herculean task.

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Doubt whom you will, but never yourself.
"Do what you love, and you'll never have to work a day in your life."
-Haha, I've *arrived*! I am listed as a reference on Wikipedia.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the NJS implementation and what does that change?

Signed!

Steven (maybe I should make a petition for a coach?)

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"A sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." - Albert Einstein
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular." - Adlai Stevenson
"Got Edge?" - Steven J. Arness - Coachless, two years and counting.
"He who carves himself to suit others will soon whittle himself away."
"Sometimes you get what you want but loose what you have."

Well, the fiasco that was Dallas had nothing to do with number of starts (though Dallas was disappointing in that respect), it was the scheduling issue that has been covered extensively here already.

Re the petition text:

1) "Bronze Test Requirements back in 1995-1996 were essentially what Pre-Bronze freestyle is now. Pre-Bronze was not added until about 1997 and the current Bronze freestyle elements were upgraded to what it is now."

This actually seems like an argument against, not for, having PB in AN. Essentially, it sounds like the rules were made more stringent in 1997 because the powers that be did indeed want skaters to "earn their eligibility", and used the very rule change you cite to express this sentiment. As with any rule change, you can't (or shouldn't) make it retroactive to force those who passed a certain level to have to retest to maintain their eligibility, so that's why the 95-96 Bronze skaters were spared. But it seems like the powers that be realized, once we had two years to see just what kind of skaters (and what kind of skating) would emerge from the adult skating community, that the requirements needed to be more restrictive to properly track adult skaters, and so the change was made.

2) "Pre-Bronze skaters are now required to pass both Moves and freestyle tests too, just like all the other levels"

This sounds like neither an argument for nor against having PB in AN. The MIF tests were instituted across the board for the adults. Nothing more was added to Pre-Bronze that wasn't added to the other levels. Everyone now has to pass moves tests to progress up the adult track. Using this reasoning, one could argue that Silver level skaters should compete in Gold, or Gold skaters in Masters.

3) "addition of the Pre-Bronze freestyle well balanced program rules for Pre-Bronze freestyle skaters"

See #2. The well balanced requirements were added across the board, not just in Pre-Bronze, so this is a bit irrelevant.

4) "There seems to be a drop in the numbers of adults attending Adult Nationals"

This seems to be your strongest argument, and one that you should try to sell. No one can argue with the power of cold hard cash, and I can't deny that Pre-Bronzers would generate that kind of cash. But one would need to study the potential number of PB starts as well as to see if the number of starts increases in Chicago in 2007, which I'm suspecting it will. If so, that increase may offset the need for more starts from Pre-Bronzers, but an LOC person or an Ann Dougherty would be the best person to make that determination.

Finally, I want to reiterate my main problem with this movement. Currently, the Pre-Bronze freestyle test does not require a program set to music, only that the elements be done one at a time as asked for by one judge. Also, the test is marked pass/retry rather than given a numeric technical and artistic mark. To me these are two reasons why the current Pre-Bronze freestyle test is not a reliable enough indicator as to whether a skater is eligible for AN. Granted, the PB folks who have put together this petition have all skated freestyle events at numerous competitions with PB level, but PB would also include people who have not even attempted a program at all. So I would only be comfortable with allowing PB at AN if the PB free test was changed accordingly. While I know many PB skaters would say "But I DO have program experience" that was by your choice, but wouldn't necessarily apply to all PB skaters; such a level of mastery would need to be part of the test structure as well.

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Whatever!

This is a bit off-topic, but I hate attitudes like this. You shouldn't give up on something only because you "found out you had no hope of winning." It;s a COMPETITION! Not everyone goes home with medals. Sometimes I win a medal, sometimes I don't. Franky you shouldn't bother coming to ANs at all and just stick with ISI if you only want to compete if you're guaranteed a medal, because there's a good chance you'll be disappointed.
See, that's what all this SHOULD be about. So why didn't you stick with it since you loved it so much? According to your earlier paragraph it's because you couldn't win medals. That's really too bad IMO.

Well, a good immediate comparison would be the recent inclusion of letting the 21-24 year olds compete. We kept hearing for years and years complaints from theis age group that they weren't allowed to compete. And many thought that their inclusion would bring a ton of new skaters and a ton of money. So now that they are allowed in, did we see a huge increase in the numbers (read: $$$$$) at ANs this year? I'd be curious to know. I know that for Masters Men/Ladies we had an additional, what, 6-7 of that age group?

While I can understand the reasoning behind not having it (i.e., there are no national level competitions for pre-preliminary, preliminary, and pre-juvenile), my understanding of adult competitions is that they welcome everyone who loves the sport and wants to compete. At least, that's the experience I've had with it from attending AN for the first time this year (thank you, also, to those of you who got the age limite lowered to 21. . .I've been waiting what seemed like forever to turn 25 and get to compete!).

I don't think there's much harm in adding pre-bronzers to the list. They'll still have to prove their mettle by passing the pre-bronze tests and putting together a competant program. And there were scheduling problems this year without pre-bronze skaters there. It's hard for me to see the difference it would make in adding them. Besides, it seems like a main goal is having fun, skating your best, and meeting new friends, and that should be allowed at any level IMHO.

I've signed. Good luck!

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"Without Vision the People Perish"
שלום לעולם תמיד

Wait. You're condemning me without the whole story. At my first USFSA competition, a kindly judge took me aside and told me that they just COULDN'T give me a first because I was too old. They had to "save" those wins for kids who needed them for qualifying comps. (To add insult to injury, she also told me my skirt was too short. ) I checked around and found that, in this area, that was the norm. No adults competed USFSA, they became ice dancers. (Don't yell at me, this is what the COACHES told me.) Remember, this is before they had the Adult track or even the Basic Skills curriculum. I didn't give up - I was turned away!

While the test structures of USFSA are more to my liking, I loved skating ISI and tested up to FS5, working on FS6/7. My USFSA club had folded, so I joined an ISI club and didn't look back. I skated at ISI Nationals, earning several medals, none of them gold. Best skating experience of my life -- everyone should have that opportunity.

I made some wonderful friends, some of whom were the best competitors and sportswomen I've ever met. Winning wasn't the important thing. Friends were, and still are, the most important part of skating and competing.

One of my main competitors was also one of my best friends. We used to skate at Rock Center together during lunch, then go to evening freestyles, followed by hanging out at the Calico Kitchen in Totowa, NJ until the wee hours of the morning. When she moved up to FS3, I skipped that level so we wouldn't be head-to-head. My FS4 skills were so-so, but my friend was more important than the comp results.

I only stopped skating/competing because adult life got in the way: Grad School, DH, KIDS!
I'm currently an instructor and coach for both USFSA and ISI programs (and I'm a PSA member). In my home rink, I'm the ISI specialist because of my knowledge and background. Frankly, I'm not interested at this point of my life in skating at AN, but I might be sometime down the road. My goal right now is preparing skaters to achieve their best and become good competitors and sportsmen/women.

The USFSA adult track has the potential to be just as welcoming and inclusive (not to mention fun!) as the ISI was for me in the 1980's. As a result, I sympathize with the Pre-Bronze testers wanting to be included in this competition. They've got my support because it's a great opportunity that they shouldn't have to miss out on just because they've only taken one test. Life's too short to wait until they pass the next level.

Don't get too worked up, either in anger or pity for me: I made the most of what was available to me when I skated in the 1980's. I came back from a hiatus to find a brave new world for adults: new tests, comps, web boards, and MITF! It's a great improvement that can lead to future growth.

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This was to address that we've been overlooked when they added Pre-Bronze FS in 1997. There were no specific notes from my research on Google that specifically addressed why Pre-Bronze FS was specifically not allowed to compete at AN when Pre-Bronze was added on. Ironically, the only thing that was addressed at the time was to push for AN becoming a regular yearly event that happens every year. The general tone I got from that time was to proving that USFS that adult skaters are just as serious skaters as the kids.

Yup! That's the point. Everyone, including PreBronze skaters, are testing on pretty much a levelled field. Why should Pre-Bronze be excluded from their own Nationals, if they are also

It wasn't clear across the board! Pre-Bronze FS well balanced requirements was NOT implement until this past year (See Section 303.) The reason it wasn't initially implement back in 2002 when the first of the "well-balanced program requirement" for all the other skating levels but not Pre-Bronze FS is anyone's guess. But we wanted to eliminate this concern as a reason not to include Pre-Bronze FS at Adult Nationals.

The point I was trying to make is that we are following well-balanced program rules, just like all the other level. #2 and #3 is to show mainly that we have the USFSA rules and infrastructure in place to make adding Pre-Bronze FS a smooth transition. We are following the same type of rules that the other Adult levels are doing.

Yup! We are trying to sell using this point. I mean we allowed the age level to drop to 21 and well, we got only 450 skaters this year at AN. Why not give us a try to try to raise that number a bit?

Well, then having those PB skaters do a program to music at AN according to #3 would be a good learning experience for them, wouldn't it?

While it may be true about Pre-Bronze tests requiring only a pass/retry and that our FS test does not require music, when you are talking about competing at the Pre-Bronze level, you have to compete according to #3. There's an expectation that people have to do a program! It's not like we're just skating around with no music!!! We're required to do jumps, spins, connecting moves and footwork to music and have the same time limit as a Bronze level skaters, just like everyone else.

BTW: Just so people don't think that I'm slackin'... most of you know I am still working on Bronze moves and FS test. I've been working on becoming a Bronze lady for over 5.5 YEARS!!! For a lot of us, we have physical obstacles getting in the way of passing this test. In my case, I have a bad lower back, very closed hips, numerous injuries cause by falls and boots that broke down and trying to become somewhat flexible enough to do some of those moves given my age (I'm a Class III... yeah, I know I don't look it. ) is gonna be a bigger obstacle than if I started skating at age 21.

BTW: Even if this proposal passes, I can say for myself that I am continuing on with my plans to get my Bronze moves and FS test out of the way THIS YEAR!!! (And you guys know that as of October of last year I was very close to passing the test. One judge passed me!) I have been working hard since then to make sure that I've covered those concerns the judges had about my test. I have a Bronze FS program already, ready to test, when I do pass my Bronze Moves test. So this isn't something to allow me to slack off. Frankly, I want to get my Bronze test out of the way so I can work on other things. (Working on Prelim and Pre-Juv moves tests, jump combinations, spin combinations.)

With all due respect, I will have to disagree with you here, because you are not addressing the spirit of which Adult Nationals was started, to allow skaters to meet and compete other adult skaters (and no, ISI is not good enough...) It's a whole different animal, NoVa. If you make it exactly like the standard track, you might as well be competing at the standard track!

Yes, but with significantly LESS events and less skaters this year!!! I've read somewhere around here that this year it was 450 and "it was more like a well attended Sectionals than an Adult Nationals" compared to AN back in 2001-2002. The adult skating committee knows this and is concerned because we're not making enough money in the AN events. They've tried lower the age limit to 21 to try to get more skaters on. Well, the word is out for well over a year that if "you're legal to party and drink you can compete at AN" and we still have 450 skaters!!! Pre-Bronze skaters can fill up this gap and provide the revenues needed.

Give us the oppty that we've been long overdue for -- to be able to share with you in the experience being a competitor at AN! (Besides, we'll throw more vodka nips for you at your event, NoVa... )

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Actually, Pre-Bronze Dancers are allowed to compete. AND if you have finished your pre-bronze dances you are allowed to enter the interpretive event.

What are you talking about with "a pre-silver event?" You can still skate Bronze if you don't pass your silver moves, so that is not a good comparison. And, with all due respect, you have no idea if an older skater, and one who started as an older adult (like over 35) will ever be able to pass the Bronze tests. There could be one sticking point and yet that person's skills may have developed in other areas. Should that person be denied the opportunity to compete at Adult Nationals forever?


Bronze I had only 10 skaters, and some of them were already over 25, so it (adding the 21-24 year olds) didn't add many numbers at that level.

It wasn't even 4 full days, was it? Didn't the schedule end early? If adding the 21 - 24 year olds added a few hours to the competition I would guess the numbers wouldn't be THAT much higher to add pre-bronze freestyle. Besides, the fees that the pre-bronze skaters pay would provide additional profit and cover the ice costs.

I see your point here and can agree with changing the Pre-bronze free skating test, but I highly doubt anyone would go to Adult Nationals without already having done some other competitions and having worked on a program extensively. It doesn't make any sense at all to do as you suggest is possible.

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

Pat

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August 22, back on the ice!

But what if I pass silver moves and cant get my silver free? Then I am not able to compete. Just like several skaters I have heard...pass gold moves and dont pass gold free....

And what time allotment would the pre bronzers get? Those of us who worked our @&&*& off and passed bronze MIF and FS get 1:40 I dont think a pre-bronze FS should get the same amount of time when they have not passed the bronze tests. How much can a pre-bronze skater cover in 1:10?

Just another thought..

BTW I am not trying to sound like an "###" I felt it a GREAT accomplishment to get to AN in bassically 18 months of lessons and testing. I think the bar should not be lowered.

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

BTW I am 39 and started at 37....passed bronze free in December right before I turned 39! It can be done! You got to really want it... I do!

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Why are you skating so slowly? Get out of my way!

If you skate faster, it makes everything look better!

I don't think that's right, is it? If you pass silver moves but not silver free you can still skate at Bronze as far as I know.
Right now, the well-balanced program rules for PRe-Bronze programs specify 1:40. Sorry that you feel we haven't earned that amount of time, but that is the rule.
You're right, that IS a great accomplishment and I would say you are a great exeption. I would guess that very, very few adults would get that far, starting at that age, in that amount of time. I really, really want it, too, but I haven't managed to match your level of achievement.

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August 22, back on the ice!

This is correct. Your moves test status does not determine what freestyle events you can compete. For example, I passed gold moves back in November but I was still elegible to skate at silver this year. It works the same way on the standard track. One of the young girls that skates at the rink on Saturday mornings with me has finished all of her moves-in-the-field tests but just recently passed her novice free. She would compete as a novice lady.