..a curiosity question as I dream up some long term goals of myn...what jumps do you need before beginning to work on doubles?? do you need all singles through lutz? do you need to be able to do a double off-ice first? and also what is the first double usually taught?

happy skating!

Once people start working on doubles, I've heard of some people learning double sal before double toe, I've also heard of some people learning double toe first. It probably depends on which of the two jumps is stronger as a single.

I've also heard of people working on doubles before getting or before working on the axel, and I know people who do some doubles but not an axel.

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Usually, people start on the double sal around the time they either start on the axel or are close or are just landing the axel. Normal progression is 2 sal, 2 toe, 2 loop, 2 flip, 2 lutz, 2 axel for learning but not everyone learns in that order. 2 sal before 2 toe due to the nature of the number of weight transfers between jumps (this is the order I learned and got them in)...

i learned my single axle,
Single axle
salcow
toe
loop
flip
lutz
double axle

I learned double sal first, but then I learned triple toe first for triples...It could probably go the other way around too since I learned single toe before the sal.

To be ready to learn doubles, you need all of your singles, but more than that, you need all your singles to be the best they can be, they can't be spinny or windy or low to the ground or have any kind of bad technique. You also need to be able to do all singles in combination with toeloops and then with loops as the second jumps. Especially with loops. Then you have to be able to do jump-loop-backspin. Your backspin also has to be very very strong. After this, you can start learning the axel off the ice. Once it's clean off the ice, you learn it on the ice, and you usually start learning double salchow (or toeloop whichever jump is easier for you) when you've at least landed some axels on one foot, even if they were cheated.

The point is that you don't JUST have to land singles to be ready for doubles, they have to be technically perfect, or you will kill yourself trying to rotate in the air.

I'm just starting to work on the axel. Here's how my progression has gone...

- learned all the singles
- learned all the singles with loops on the end
- working on waltz-backspin from a T-position
- working on gliding on two feet, forwards, on deep edge, jumping up and doing one revolution...so I land forwards
- working on waltz-loop-backspin
- working on loop-backspin (just started these last week)

The backspin has been the hardest thing for me to learn, and is the slowest to progress. I have no trouble with a front spin, and all my singles are confident. I work a LOT on change-foot spins. For those, I have to keep in mind not twisting my upper body, and instead just pulling straight in to get the rotation. Most of my "backspins" end up on an inside edge instead of outside, so that's my biggest hurdle at the moment. There is a fear element to it also, as I'm worried about going over backwards, but it's getting better!

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Originally Posted by stardust skies
To be ready to learn doubles, you need all of your singles, but more than that, you need all your singles to be the best they can be, they can't be spinny or windy or low to the ground or have any kind of bad technique. You also need to be able to do all singles in combination with toeloops and then with loops as the second jumps. Especially with loops. Then you have to be able to do jump-loop-backspin. Your backspin also has to be very very strong. After this, you can start learning the axel off the ice. Once it's clean off the ice, you learn it on the ice, and you usually start learning double salchow (or toeloop whichever jump is easier for you) when you've at least landed some axels on one foot, even if they were cheated.

The point is that you don't JUST have to land singles to be ready for doubles, they have to be technically perfect, or you will kill yourself trying to rotate in the air.


For some reason my daughter has a much better on ice axle than off ice. Her coach said she hasnt seen many that are better on ice than off. Hers is cheated, her take off and landing are good, just need to work on the rotation now.
I think having a strong back spin has really helped her.She also did alot of waltz loop loop and also waltz half loop salcow combo.

My coach hasn't given me any indication that I will be working on off-ice jumping. We work a lot on getting "energy" out of jumps' entry edges, so I think learning the axel off-ice would be counter-productive to what we are trying to do on-ice...IOW, I think learning the jump off-ice might force me into bad habits where I would be using the wrong parts of my body to make the jump work.

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Off ice jumping is a good way to prevent injuries. I do know some people, like alaskanskatemom said, that are better at jumping on ice than off ice, and that's fine too, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be learned. IMHO, I think it helps to learn it off ice WITHOUT the momentum of the ice, and then it makes it that much easier to then do it with speed on the ice. It's a good way to prevent from falling on the very early stages of learning multi-rotations...it's much easier to catch yourself.

As to learning bad technique...if you have a coach with you off ice and on ice, there's really no reason you'd expect learning bad technique off ice if you're not learning it on ice. You can learn bad technique on ice by repeatedly doing the jumps wrong, which you're bound to do when you first learn them. The only thing you can do is work on correcting yourself, and always have a coach with you when learning new elements. On ice or off. I think off ice has helped me a lot, and people who do off ice usually have much higher jumps than those who don't BECAUSE it's harder to do off ice so by the time you are on ice, it's easy. It helps all around.

Star,
My daughter does tries it off ice, and does those off ice excercises ie pulling her arms in and jump on one leg. I think off ice she swings her legs too much and she is more controlled on ice.Maybe she thinks more on ice than off ?Or maybe its her age, Im not sure.
I think from what I have seen , most skaters do it off ice first.Its a good excercise, even just take off, having the H in the legs, arms in postion.I know it can take awhile from off ice to on ice.

I'm probably hardly the best example, but I actually started learning my first double for the lutz, i don't know why but this is my strongest jump and I am very good at it.I learned in this order:

Salchow
toe
loop
flip (this is my 2nd best jump)
lutz (my best jump)
axel (my single is still very bad)

I'm jsut starting doubles now, and so far i can do a double lutz with about 30% sucess rate. I started doing it on ice, thats what my coach suggested.

most people start doubles with the jump they are most comfortable on, for me this was lutz. for many people they start with salchow.

make sure you are comfortable on majority of your singles first.