Hello,
My daughter just competed at her first juvenile competition. She had downgrades for her double lutz and flips. Her only full quality double was the salchow. She turned ten last month. She trains 3 hours, 5 days a week and gets coaching 3 days. It's taken her five-six months to land her doubles. Is it a matter of more conditioning and strength training to help overcome her cheated jumps?

I'd say you have a coaching problem if he/she allows your child to get away with under rotated jumps.

I wouldn't be so fast to blame coaches when these doubles are still relatively new. It takes time to develop a clean double & some skaters will land them cheated for a while until they develop more strength / height, and better technique. At this age/level, those doubles are a work in progress.

I'd dare to bet she's been landing the double sal longer than the flip & lutz--therefore it makes sense that it's the clean one. (not to mention it's an easier jump)

Phoenix, you're right about her sal. That was her first double she started learning and it does take time. However, Kander's comments about the cheated jumps is not too far off. You see, our coach has another star pupil that he trains 2 hours every day and is focused on her (she's seven and training in preliminary). He never pointed out my daughter's under rotated jumps as an issue in the past weeks leading up to competition. We only found out from the competition results and from another coaches observation after the competition. The troubling part was he changed her program the day before competition - his reason was he checked with the judges two nights before competition regarding program requirements and needed to make the adjustments.

Hello. If she's only been working on double jumps for 5-6 months, it might be too soon to expect them all to be clean. As for strength training, yes that will definately help her develop more power to achieve more height. Jumps are typically cheated if the skater does not have enough height to complete the rotation. A 10 year old is not expected to be incredibly strong, and needs to consistently work on strength training to improve, which will take time.

__________________
Visit www.sk8strong.com for complete off-ice training information and sport specific DVDs for figure skaters

If these jumps are only 5-6 months old, I would almost EXPECT them to be cheated at this point! At this stage, there's really no "getting away with it" going on, it is a natural progression of the jump. Unless a kid is some kinda "wunderkind" and lands them clean from try 1, there are tons of cheated jumps until the clean ones come. There are still cheats at Nationals, Worlds, even the Olympics. Give it time.

My dd competed in her first Juvenile event a few months ago. I knew her jumps were underrotated, but what shocked me, was that almost everyone one else in her group, besides the top 2-3, had the majority, if not all of their doubles downgraded. I went into that comp feeling like we were so outclassed, and came out feeling like we weren't too far off the norm.

For my dd, it wasn't so much strength and conditioning, as it was the fear factor. She really wasn't putting herself totally "out there" to get that jump. Caution always held her back. She went into them too slow, didn't bend enough, didn't pick enough, whatever to make sure that she remained standing and didn't fall. It was a total mental thing. After the above mentioned competition, she finally decided that she had to just face the fear and do it anyway. It has made a huge difference in her jumps. She is only now finally getting the coveted "that was clean" comment from her coaches, and not even that often, but it has started happening, and she's been working on the majority of them for a year +. There are others at our rink who are fantastic skaters, but they are still working to eke out that last little bit, and they have been doing these jumps for a whole lot longer.

With the young ones, it is a matter of time and mileage. She WILL get the jumps. Make sure she works on other things as well...too many focus only on jumps, and have awful spins, footwork and zero artistry. There is more to a 2:15 program than the jump elements.

__________________
BuggieMom
><>
Some people are like a Slinky...not really good for anything,
but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs....

Cheats are normal as jumps are learned; I bet she cheated her singles and her axels for a while, but, without those numerical scores you can't tell, and she maybe didn't see numerical scores earlier in her skating career?

The coach may be aware of it, and is working through the natural progression (cheat to downgrade, 1/4 turn cheat, fully rotated) - and doesn't want to discourage your daughter by telling her that the jumps are cheated. Many kids never get doubles, let alone true doubles; I've seen cheats of 1/4 turn all the way up to Junior level. Many also see their doubles come - and go - and come - and go ... as they go through growth spurts and the inevitable "let's try for a more difficult entry" or "let's fix the leg position" or "let's go for more distance" as the continual process of improve/refine/improve/refine continues (sigh.)

How were her other elements scored? Were her spins downgraded, how did she do on the PCS scores? How were the GOEs on the elements, including the single jumps? Those give a good big picture more than the downgraded doubles. It's also early in the season, and lots of kids are just adding in new jumps for the upcoming year, it's normal to see jumps that aren't quite there. If she got good scores on the singles for technique, and her PCS and spins were okay, then, that's good!

The changing the program thing ... it happens, we've had changes up to the date of the competition. It can be for a variety of reasons: to try out something new, to take out something that hasn't been working, to accomodate for an injury, or because of a change in level (skating up, different track, new rules). It took some maturing for my kid, but it has helped as a mental exercise to develop fast acquisition of programs and the ability to change a program on the fly to accomodate, say, a missed required jump early in the program that can be added in later!

Strength training CAN be good ... just be sure that you get in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, and who knows how to train a figure skater. You can seriously mess up a kid with poor technique in the strength training area, and it has to be suitable for her age and physical development. 10 year old girls should typically NOT be doing what a 15 year old girl (or boy) is doing; and one 10 year old may be very physically different from another, thus, you can't just follow an age-related guideline!

A physiotherapist is a good thing to add in as well: a top to bottom assessment for muscle imbalances and structural weaknesses with monitoring of progress is excellent. We've been able to identify and quickly address issues of, say, overdeveloped quads and underveloped hamstrings, lax joints, flexibility issues, that could have hindered progress significantly and/or caused long-term damange.

In regards to the last post:

This is why, on our website, we offer a free consultation to determine which DVD is appropriate for the skater. Myself being a physical therapist, we also recommend setting appointments with a PT or educated strength and conditioning specialist to evaluate that a skater is doing the exercises properly. A PT has the most education in determining alignment and weaknesses.

__________________
Visit www.sk8strong.com for complete off-ice training information and sport specific DVDs for figure skaters

Maybe she isn't getting the tight rotation in the legs. I see that a lot with skaters that are cheating jumps. It may look slightly wrapped. Practice back scratch spins, getting the feet tight together and then jumping out of it like a loop jump. I would recommend, leg squats, push ups, lunges, stomach crunches. No weights, esp. for young kids! Off ice jumps are good too.

The cheated doubles are very common at that age.... sometimes it's a technique issue, but often it's just not enough mileage under the belt yet.

The other possibility is that the jumps may be mostly clean in practice and lesson. But then at competition when some combination of nerves, adrenaline and stress kicks in, she didn't get enough speed into the jump, or as clean of a pick-in as normal, or any of a host of factors. With the result being a cheated double jump.

I have frequently seen the 2Lz cheated at the Juv level. Or if it's not cheated, it's very common to see very obvious entry edge changes (the infamous "flutz").

If she just got the downgrade on rotation, it's probably just a time and mileage issue.

If she got either an edge change (e) or edge alert (!) on the 2Lz or on any 2F she might have executed, that should be more of a concern.

__________________
American Waltz... Once, Twice, ???? ...

Q: How many coaches does it take to fix Jen's Dance Intro-3 Problems
A: 5 and counting...

And, of course, that is where the IJS can be so good, as a really good single jump can score more, with the positive GOE, than an under-rotated double, especially when that is marked down.

If your DD's doubles are still iffy, it might be worth not trying them in competition but focussing on excellent singles, and maybe putting doubles off until next year.

__________________
Mrs Redboots
~~~~~~~~
I love my computer because my friends live in it!
Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I think doubles from just about every 10 year old I see at my rink are cheated, as are those from older kids at the juv level. She's young, give her time and they will come.

It's important for a coach to be able to adjust on a warm-up, too, particularly under IJS. Sometimes with kids that age, jumps come and go and there are bad days. I monitored juv at a local competition a few months ago, and there was a girl who was struggling with a non-cheated double lutz and flip on warm-up. Carol Heiss-Jenkins (her coach) took them out of the program right there on warm-up and had her do singles instead. She ended up winning because she got positive GOEs for clean, well-executed singles and every other kid got downgraded for cheated doubles (or fell on them). She didn't even have the strongest spins. I know the mental aspect of that can be tough on a young kid, but sometimes they also are good at just doing what they are told and not overthinking things or letting pressure get to them.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Wow thanks everyone for the feedback. Since my daughter tested at juvenile, there's no getting around doubles - but we'll discuss with coach about increasing her harness time and more conditioning. She has a clean double sal and her next closest is the 2Lz (weirdly enough) followed by 2F. The IJS system seems to reward being conservative rather than take risks seeing that a single with GOE upgrade is worth almost as much as a double. My daughter is a late bloomer as we didn't get her into USFS competitive track until last year, where she started as no-test and has progressed to juv. this season. She's finished 3rd and 1st at two prelim. events and 1st at pre-juv. so far this year. Liberty was her debut under the IJS scoring system.

I wouldn't call a 10 year old with all her doubles except for an axel (even though a few are cheated) a late bloomer. She's right where the more "serious" kids at my rink around her age (and even those a little older but at the juv level), as well as the other kids I've seen compete competitive Juv under IJS are. They all seem to have a decent double toe/sal but the flip and lutz are shaky and not consistent.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

Honestly, she sounds like she's right where she should be at her age and level. The additional 1/4 of rotation will come as she continues to practice them and increase her strength. Also, working on the double axel will get her used to going for more than 2 revolutions, so that will probably get her to stop underrotating the 2F and 2Lz entirely.
I think an evaluation by a physical therapist is a wise idea for any skater. I don't know if the harness would help, though, because the harness gives the skater more time in the air and therefore does not force the skater to rotate faster. The harness is best when learning a brand new jump, like the double axel, where the skater just needs to feel what it's supposed to feel like to rotate that many times before landing.

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics

Thanks for the great suggestions doubletoe. Her coach had been training her on her 2A, so logically that sounds like one of the best ways to solve her under rotation problem. I'll look into the physical therapy as well.

I agree with everything everyone has posted. I know about 2 very talented juv level skaters (10 and 11) with all of their doubles through 2lutz clean, but most of the ones I know only consistently rotate 2sals while sometimes toe-axeling 2toes, and have cheated 2flips and 2lutzes. 2loops are iffy for some of them too. The clean jumps will come with time.

__________________
Youtube Videos

The best thing to do is find a physical therapist that has experience in strength and conditioning and is familiar with figure skaters. You can't actually schedule an appointment at a clinic unless you have a prescription for an injury. If you find someone with experience as in the above, you may want to set up an appointment outside of the clinic. Unfortunately, you can't get a doctor to write a prescription for 'underrotated double jumps'
Please contact me with any questions!!

__________________
Visit www.sk8strong.com for complete off-ice training information and sport specific DVDs for figure skaters

I also wouldn't focus too much on the strength issue. She's a kid, she's still got growing to do. Some plyometrics and that sort of off-ice is probably ok, but most doctors, physical therapists, personal trainers etc would strongly discourage weight-based training for someone that young.

__________________
2010-2011 goals:
Pass Junior MIF test
Don't break anything

You're welcome. The physical therapy evaluation would really be just to identify possible strength and flexibility imbalances to avoid overuse injuries. For example, we skaters tend to use our outer quadriceps muscles a LOT and not the inner quads or hamstrings. That can create strength imbalances and tightness that frequently result in knee and hip problems. Core strength (back and abdominal muscles) is very important for multi-revolution jumps, too. A physical therapist can test for these imbalances and give your daughter effective stretching and strengthening exercises that will use a theraband or her own body weight, no heavy weights.

__________________
"You don't have to put an age limit on your dreams." - Dara Torres, 41, after her 2nd medal at the 2008 Olympics