The adult section of the USFSA website now has well-balanced program summary sheets posted.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=112

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Thanks for the link, LoopLoop!

I see that there is now a max of 2 spins in Pre-Bronze - when did this happen? Not to stir anything up, but it seems that if there was going to be a change to Pre-Bronze along with the other levels, shouldn't it have been included in the action items at Governing Council and actually have been voted on?

And here's another issue with this - if this is truly the new rule, is it included in the rulebook for this year, and are comps actually using it, like, now? If so, that means I need to change my program for Wilmington this weekend - silly me, I thought the document that the USFSA posted after GC with the changes to the rulebook was what I should follow. And are the judges actually going to be given this document to use when judging. I'm certain that my competitors won't see this (unless they frequent this forum - and really, should one have to visit an Internet forum to hear about rule changes that will affect their comp in 5 days?) and if they include 3 spins and receive credit and no deductions, then that means if I follow this rule and only have 2, then I could be at a disadvantage.

I also see that there is a note about spiral sequences being counted as transitions for Masters, Gold, and Silver, but nothing is noted about spirals at all under Bronze - I assume this is just an oversight and spirals will indeed receive some sort of credit in Bronze?

Off to e-mail the Wilmington organizers for clarification. So much for practicing my backspin in a judged situation before my test....

I think, with these changes, a re-evaluation of the spin content on the Bronze FS test is necessary. JMO.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Don't new rules always take effect on 9/1?

It's nice to see the rules in this format, much easier to follow. I do think it would make sense to adjust bronze FS test because of new rules. Maybe just ditch the forward one foot spin? That's on pre-bronze FS already.

Not if a competition is following the new season's rules, which is what the Wilmington announcement says.

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Terri C is a Bronze lady!
Gold Moves, here I come!

Yup! I was going to say "Ummmm, when did THIS happen???"

I don't mind that the rules changed (since I'm not competing 'til I pass Bronze FS test and then I'll have a new program anyway! ), but it would be NICE to know that it was talked about and the resolution for it BACK in *MAY* when it was ratified!!! (Yeah, I know... there were a lot of stuff brought up the week prior to GC... but that was NOT one of the ones *I* knew about. (The one I know about was the spin requirement between Bronze and Silver level skaters...)

I'm gonna go back and see in the USFSA what notes they already have from Governing Council and see if that rule was on the final vote... I'm pretty sure I didn't see it though.

Not my beloved one foot spin!?!?! Maybe the backspin??? (I'm just kidding, Terri C!) And sorry, I like my sit spins too!!! LOL!!!

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11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

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2010 Adult Nationals - earning a gold - "Priceless"
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jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

All the Gold skaters out there need to be very careful about the wording on the WBP rule summary chart they posted. It mentions jump sequences (with jumps that are no more than 1 revolution) as part of footwork or immediately preceding a jump, but what it doesn't specify is that they are really talking only about *unlisted* jumps like walleys, half loops, etc. If you read the description in the original Combined Report of Action, they threw in some examples there to clarify what kind of jumps they meant. I think they parenthetically mentioned half loops and mazurkas.

What about stag jumps or falling leaves? I would like to put one into my silver program. Does that count toward my max? It's not mentioned at all in the rules.

Hey, that's MY SPIN!!!!

Yeah, I'd like to know why one minute, we Pre Bronze skaters were told that nothing would be changed, because we cannot compete at AN, but it did change with no one telling us. Yeah I know, we're only Pre Bronze and we don't matter (in the eyes of some of the adult "elite")

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What is UP with the pre-bronze persecution complex?

I don't understand. Are you saying that walleys/half loops into a jump would or would not get credit as connecting footwork? What about mazurkas, split jumps, falling leaves, half-flip or half-lutz, etc.? Help!

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Whatever!

Hannah,
The spin max of 2 spins in program was not on the Request for Action at GC this year for Pre Bronze freestyle. I'm sick and tired of things not being communicated clearly!

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Adult Nationals, 2009 "The Time of My Life"

Well, while I can understand the confusion coming from the PB skaters, I also admit that we shouldn't be too surprised that a change was made. When the original wording came out, many skaters rightfully pointed out the discrepancy between PB and Bronze levels per the spins in the WBP reqs. They've made the correction to make the WBP reqs consistent between PB and Bronze.

It would have been nice to have been given a clearer heads up, but knowing how the Bronze reqs were changed to limit spins, this shouldn't come as a complete surprise that the same was done for PB.

Good luck to the PB skaters (all skaters, really) competing soon under the new rules. Just do your best under the new system, adjust your program if you can, and try not to let it get to you too much. Trust me, we're all experiencing growing pains from the new COP/IJS/WBP/XYZ rules.

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Whatever!

I can understand your frustration, but don't you think you are being a little unreasonable towards an organization that is largely run by volunteers who are in this because they love our sport?

They are probably doing the best they can.

Think about it. The GC proposals regarding Adult issues are usually not heard of until AN in April, and by then the Requests For Action are a 90% done deal.
While I have a backup plan in place to follow the 2 spin max in the freeskate, I will have to adjust my program in other areas. And there are Pre Bronzers competing in the weeks to come (Wilmington, Hershey, Peach Classic on the East Coast for example) that will have one heck of a time adjusting their programs in a matter of weeks or days, where if this had come out in May or even June, that would have given them more time.

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dcden: thankfully, I personally will NOT be one of them, since I've made a pledge to myself to NOT compete until at least my Bronze FS tests are passed (whenever that is... ) and then start my Bronze FS reign with a BRAND NEW competition program!

Hannahclear: The final doc coming out of GC said NOTHING about Pre-Bronze competitive FS programs being changed and now 3 months afterwards we're just finding out the WBP has been changed for Pre-Bronze FS too? For those who are competing in the coming weeks would require that they rechoreograph their program and then having to adjust to the flow of the program under the new requirements in a short amount of time!

Yes, I know that USFSA is primary run by volunteers and they're doing the best they can, but I can also understand Terri's frustrations on this one and she has a right to express her frustration over this, as I'm sure there are other Pre-Bronze skaters who are also frustrated about this too.

Here's a scenario: Suppose you are planning to test Bronze FS say in Sept. and you find out JUST NOW that your test program has to be adjusted to do two spins for the new requirements, wouldn't you have the same frustration? (Let's say also that you ALSO have to test by Sept so you can allow time for yourself to get in gear for the new skating season to make your program competitive up to Silver for ummmm, Halloween Classic (or Skate SF...) How would you handle this situation?

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Cheers,
jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

Yes, it's inconvenient, but is it that cumbersome to remove one spin? We're not talking about adding a double axel here.

I also understand her frustration, but I wanted to express my opinion that we need to respect the volunteer aspect of the committee structure and the fact that these people are working in this job with other life tasks.

Extra elements can be added to test programs without penalty. So it wouldn't be an issue.

Wow, I'm Canadian and with the changes I see, when I finally test both my prelim and junior bronze tests, I'll have Lutz, single Axel, 2 toe and 2 sal. That will mean I will have to skate up into Gold if I do double jumps. Plus, what is really weird for us Canadian skaters wanting to also compete in the US, is that the USFSA still hasn't extended the skating times. My prelim soon to be junior bronze program is 2 min 32 secs and I can have upto 6 jumping passes in them and so far, I can include double jumps if I wish along with flying spins, a footwork sequence and a spiral sequence.

Right now, I have to get working on that Axel so I can skate up to Silver to keep my prelim test program time of 2 min 3 secs. I'm throwing my test program away right after I test and then I'll be keeping my competition program mentioned above for the rest of 2006-2007.

What if we Canadians register for your US competitions through our sections, what happens with the program times? Do we still get to keep our program times or do we have to skate up or us music from a previous level?

singerskates

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For my current test/competition program, it is! I wouldn't know which spins to take out, for one, never mind what to replace it with to keep the technical difficulty up! The other frustration (admittedly a greedy one) is that my spins are my stronger selling points. Jumps are definitely not one of my selling points!

Fair enough, as long as Terri (and others) are allowed to air out their opinions on this and the committee addresses this issue in a fair and sensitive manner.

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jazzpants

11-04-2006: Shredded "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" Club Membership card!!!
Silver Moves is the next "Mission Impossible"
(Dare I try for Championship Adult Gold someday???)

Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

That's got to be confusing. But there's no way you would be allowed to do doubles in Silver and there's also no way you'd be allowed to skate for more than 2:10 in Silver, so my guess is that you'd have to skate at Gold instead. As long as it's a local competition and not Sectionals or Nationals, they usually let you "skate up" one level higher than your test level.

The point is that "unlisted" jumps (including all of the ones you mentioned) will only be considered connecting moves, even if they immediately precede a listed jump. In other words, doing a split jump immediately before your flip will not turn your flip into a combination or sequence. That's good because you are only allowed 3 jump combinations or sequences. The point is that they must be unlisted jumps or else they will count against the total number of combinations/sequences or jump passes you are allowed to do, and the summary table doesn't specify "unlisted." So I am hoping it doesn't mess anyone up!

If you put a stag or split jump in by itself, it's just a "connecting move," not a jump that will count toward your jump limits. If you do it immediately before a listed jump (like a split jump - flip) it's still just considered a connecting move and does not make the flip into a combination, so you're fine there, too. However, if you do it in-between two listed jumps, it could turn those two separate jumps into a sequence, which you may or may not want to do. The only jumps that will count against your jump total are the following "listed" jumps:
Toeloop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel (and any double/triple/quad versions of those jumps).

Cool. I really want to learn how to do a stag jump. There's just this perfect spot in my new music cut. No combo or anything, just as a highlight connecting move.

I think the bigger problem is really with those pre-season competitions that require skaters to go by the new season's rules, even though they aren't officially supposed to take effect until September 1st and the new rulebooks aren't out yet. I t hink they have an obligation to publish all rule changes in their competition announcements if they are going to ask skaters to follow a rulebook that isn't out yet.