What is the tracing of the loop jump takeoff supposed to look like? Is it okay to have a small "check mark" looking thingy at the end of the tracing of the takeoff, or is it supposed to be pure edge?

I've just noticed that some of my loops have this "check mark" on the end, and I hadn't noticed it before. I'm thinking it means I'm prerotating my torso (and thus cheating the rotation by turning too much before leaving the ice, taking off nearly facing forward, rather than staying strongly checked before the takeoff). I've heard that the "hook" into the loop takeoff means that the body does rotate a little before it leaves the ice, but nothing major, maybe 1/8 turn, not more than 1/4.

I'll also be asking my coach about this but was wondering if you all had some insights.

Thanks!

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Not only is it okay to have a check mark, but you're supposed to. That's cause the loop is a pre-rotated jump. You turn on your toepick a little before you take off, that's what that mark is. You'll also see that mark on your salchow. Or at least you should. Those are the only two jumps that are okay to pre-rotate. You don't want that mark on your toe, flip, or lutz. I tend to get it on my lutz and my coach goes insane.

I'm trying to work past that problem on my flip and lutz both - the ones that I've actually managed to do properly (only one good and proper lutz thus far) are when I really lean back onto the picking leg for the takeoff. You get more height then and thus more ability to complete the proper rotation in the air. But that makes it a heck of a lot more scary! I don't know where along the way I developed this subconcious fear from, it needs to go away!!!

Anyways sorry to butt in on this thread, but do you have any advice for making this easier?

(I also find that, unlike the rest of the single jumps, pulling the arms in on the lutz is actually important if you expect to rotate enough. (and yes, I know you're not working on singles, I just thought I'd toss this in in case anybody else is struggling with the same thing.))

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Okay, thanks for the info, stardust skies. Now here's another question--what if the checkmark is large? That is, the prerotated part right before the takeoff looks much longer on my tracings than I'm used to seeing... I'm wondering if I'm prerotating too much? (Again, I'll ask my coach, too. I was just alarmed to see how large the check marks for my loops were on a recent session.)

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I would prerotate my shoulders before my hips way too often when I would attempt this jump, and for some reason it was always hard for me to get the timing of it down. When I noticed the larger checkmark tracings I'd make, it would slow me down also, since I'd have to try to maintain momentum over a larger surface area on my blade and not just do it and try to lift off the toe pick and a cleaner outside edge. The entry would literally be like a skid, not a very secure feeling going backwards for that jump takeoff!

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I think this may be what I'm doing--my shoulders getting ahead of my hips. The other problem I've had is my free leg is too much to the outside of the circle, making it difficult to do loop loop sometimes. When my shoulders get ahead and my free leg is too outside the circle, then I'm really in trouble.

MissIndigo, was there anything that helped you stop prerotating the jump? I try to concentrate on the shoulder of the takeoff/landing side, but lately that hasn't been helping.

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Well to do it right your whole body has to go at the same time..def. don't wanna have your shoulders ahead of your hips. As far as how big a check mark is too big...it's REALLY hard to tell over the internet- I think the best would be to try and tape yourself on video, and compare to other skaters you see. You shouldn't prerotate more than 1/4...I would say that the little curve/check should be between 1 inch to 2 inches...maybe? I've never really thought about it. I think that if your coach says it's okay, and you trust them, then you should be fine.

Casey- The only tip I have to stop the pre-rotation on pick jumps is to find your timing. I had perfect lutz timing for a while but it comes in and out..and right now it's out. You gotta hold your pick out behind you w/ your leg bent and glide with your shoulders checked for a certain amount of time before reaching back further and picking. How much time exactly depends on the right timing for you, and that's for you to find. If you find yours, ask it where mine went.

I have such a hard time with this jump! Not only am I leaning away from my edge (insecurity issues there), I can't seem to get coordinated enough to bend and push up and rotate, it's frustrating! I do get 1/2 way around....but it isn't a pretty sight

How far down should one be bending before springing up?

How deep of and outside edge should we be on?

Is the free foot off or on the ice? Does that get lifted up first or do both legs act as one?

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Skate@Delaware
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As far down as you can..

As deep as you can..

Free foot on the ice...but there cannot be ANY weight on it...that's the most common mistake. It needs to just be gliding along, but all your weigh needs to be back...don't lean forward/stick your butt out/break at the waist or chest. The free leg kicks up about a millisecond before you jump off the ice, and you should aim to kick it up as high as you can, but only kick UP with the knee bent, don't kick sideways.

Hope I helped. I have a day off today. Nothing to doooooo but be online.

Something very important to remember on the loop is that the rotation starts at the bottom and works its way up the body. On your takeoff edge, spend the same amount of time on your BO edge as you did on the edge that you were on just before it. Let it curl as you sit down over the takeoff hip with all your weight on your takeoff foot. Assuming you takeoff and land on your right foot, your left arm should be extended in front of the middle of your chest and the middle of your chest should be lined up right over both knees, which are together. Your right arm and shoulder are back, so that your torso is counter rotated slightly to the right. Your left foot is trailing right in front of the right foot on the ice, but with NO weight on it.

As you get ready to take off, sit down a little more, so that you feel your right butt cheek lined up over your right heel. Feel your right heel start to turn out to the right, rotating at the ankle, and then feel the rotation work its way up to your hips, which start to twist counter-clockwise, while your torso and head stay slightly counter-rotated, with your right shoulder still pulled back. Now spring up off your right toe and think about staying backward, facing away from the direction of the jump and staying directly over your right toe in the air. Always keep your torso checked a little to the right until you land. It may feel weird to face backwards the whole time, but you'll never get all the way around if you don't.

Thanks for the tips! My coach tries to explain it, but there's no mind/body connection yet. It helps if I really analyze it (to death)....

Some of my errors:
Not bending deep enough
Not being on a deep enough outside edge, because I had no curve, just a straight line
Not rotating torso enough
Not keeping all of my weight over right leg (I was sort-of but sort-of wasn't working)

Yikes! I hope it doesn't take me a year to get this one (like the salchow-that was a whole year in the making). I was hoping I'd have a breakthrough in my jumps soon.....

I'll print out these tips and work on it when the ice show is over (which is on Sunday). Then my life will be back to normal (for me, anyway).

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Skate@Delaware
Ah, show skating!!! I do it for the glitter!

My coach told me to put my free foot on the right side and in front of my skating foot, but not on the ice.
Lots of people at my rink doing the loop this way - RFI three turn before the loop, and the free foot is slightly lifted in front of the skating foot after the three turn I've only seen people who are doing double loop put their free foot on the ice.

I can't get the edge right at all, so I can't really help.
But I do My (under rotated! )loop from an inside three turn.

Good luck!
~kittie

P.S my right foot really hurts around the ball after I've done a lot of loops. Is this normal? I just started them about a month ago.

One more thing about the loop is that you should get both feet on an outside edge (or as close as possible) this will keep your free hip from pre-rotating and opening up and should get you in the correct position as you bend down and spring up

Yes, when you do it from a RFI 3-turn, it's kind of awkward to put your free foot on the ice. It's more natural to leave the free foot on the ice when you do it from a LFO-3 or a RFI mohawk. Of course yourfree foot is also off the ice when you take off on a loop directly from the landing of another jump.

Yup, I've heard this, too, and the hard thing is to get both feet on an outside edge yet to have the foot that's trailing in front be to the inside of the circle drawn by the takeoff foot--that is, to not trail it to the outside of the foot and also to not put it on an inside edge inside that circle.

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Oops, I didn't know this! I think that I usually have the forward foot on an inside edge, actually. I'll have to start paying attention to that! One more detail - it's always something!

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Casey Allen Shobe | http://casey.shobe.info
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Well, it's not possible to have BOTH feet on an outside edge before the jump as you are skating backward. The left boot should be on a back inside edge, with the right boot on a deep right back outside edge before the takeoff.

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Totally not true. Every clean double loop I land takes off with the free foot also on an outside edge (leaves the ice before the jumping leg) along with the take off/landing foot. It gets your free leg tight up at the thighs and keeps you from dropping your free hip. I've had a Russian AND British coach tell me the same thing when they were watching me frustrated with not being able to land it. By concentrating on this, my success rate has climbed to 80%+

I think what they are talking about is sort of rocking the left blade (for CCW jumping) from the inside edge to the outside edge (assuming that the left leg/foot is crossed in front and probably "inside" of the circle being made by the RBO) as you deeping the right back outside edge so that the pressure is coming mostly from the RBO but also a bit of "scooping" pressure from the "rocked into LBO"

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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If the left foot goes onto an outside edge, I would imagine it's because you're letting the left foot cross over the right foot on the ice and turning the left foot/leg out at the same time. You're also on two outside edges when you do back cross rolls and forward cross rolls, so it is clearly possible. Hmm. . .I never even paid attention to what edge my free foot was on on a loop takeoff because I didn't have any weight on it anyway so I figured it couldn't be important. Now maybe I'll take a look, LOL!

Me too! I never cared b/c there's no weight on that free foot blade. I'll ask my coaches too. My coaches never mentioned anything about my free foot on a loop entry other than that I'm supposed to lift the free hip as I'm jumping. (Moot point for me...I'm not even landing those suckers anyway )

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Thank you for the support, you guys!!!

I understand about the left boot being on an outside edge. I've seen some skaters do this, but they change to the inside edge for the takeoff. The *prep* may involve a LBO edge, but the takeoff does not.
I believe it is Todd Eldredge who uses this technique.

My coach dislikes this technique and has me (after a LFO 3-turn and then onto RBO edge) really concentrate on pushing strong off the RBO edge, essentially avoiding any help from the left boot ("it's just along for the ride" is what many coaches have told me). But now I'm curious as to this "other" technique ... I'll have to remember to ask my coach.

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I use the RFI3 as my loop takeoff on a regular basis and I can tell you, my free foot does not touch the ice!

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I did the loop from RFI3, then from back xovers. I like the back xovers or mohawk entry much better, though I do use the L foot "along for the ride" technique. When I did use the RFI3 entry, my free foot did not touch the ice either!

What I now find myself wondering about is: when you try a waltz / loop, the free foot obviously is not on the ice. You land the waltz with it in front, then do the loop.

Would using the L-foot-on-the-ice technique be a drawback in trying the waltz /loop? I hadn't thought to ask my coach this yet....but will.

I checked my jump print today. I have a very small "check mark" at the takeoff.