She is a synchro skater so it is beginning to be a problem. She does all kinds of other flexibility moves including a biellman spin but the spread eagle is killing her. She can do an inside edge but not outside- what can I tell her to make this better?

Spread eagles have more to do with turn out than with flexibility (though I suppose that is the flexibility of the hips?). A in a turned in position, so it's entirely different.

A ballet teacher would be someone who could help a lot with this. I've found that my skating coaches have encouraged me to cheat the turnout from my knees and ankles- and I am not willing to have the injuries that go along with that. Turn out should come almost entirely from the hips.

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Ah, the girl is anti ballet! She is taking gymnastics though, I wonder if I could ask her teacher there to work on stretches that help.

I can't even do an inside spread eagle very well, and I do it with bent knees and ankles, and feet fairly close together. I think the prettiest outside spread eagles are done with straight knees and ankles, and feet far apart - and therefore have to be done entirely through the hip, with a very unusual significantly greater than 180 degree turnout.

I knew one gal with maybe 190 degree turn-out who loved to show off alternating inside and outside S.E.'s - but she would come off the ice with terrible pain in the lower back. Still, she did it a lot. She was a real looker, which enticed a lot of people to try to copy her, and of course fail. She also loved to do forward outside pivots with the feet pointed opposite each other, requiring a similar stretch, to similar effect. She made the other gals jealous, not just for skating skills.

As best I understand it, normal ankles and knees are designed to turn in and out a little, just like normal feet pronate and supinate a little when they walk. But people with hypermobility - which anyone comfortable in Biellmans or real spread eagles probably has - are at risk for joint destabilization (leading to disluctions and dislocations), because if they overstretch themselves, their muscles and ligaments return to proper taut length very slowly - months, years, or never. In principle, muscle tension can hold joints together even if you push the ligament stretches, but that is a specialized skill. So, it is safer for such flexible people to try to keep their joints (e.g., knees and ankles) fairly well aligned.

I've seen some people with somewhat less than 180 degree turn-out do an outside spread eagles by keeping the legs bent at medium distance apart, with one leg thrusted forwards, and leaning a little back.

And I've seen one gal with incredible balance but less than 180 degree turn out do it entirely with a strong backwards balance. I can't for the life of me figure out she could hold that position, since both that position and the centrifugal force should send one tumbling backwards. Can anyone figure out how that could work?

According to a course I took from a dance kinesiologist, hip turn out, like most flexibility, is limited but muscle length, muscle strength (specifically, at that point in the range of motion), ligament length (too much length destabilizes the joint), body fat (in a few cases), and/or bone shape (which can't be fixed).

It's possible that she might know of something- but I know, from personal experience one of the things about gymnasts that drives ballet teachers crazy(second probably to the sway back) is their lack of turn out.

Just don't consider forcing it from the knees- that's bad news.

Before I go to bed every night I lay in a "butterfly" position (back to the bed- not the "frog" position with tummy down) and lay my knees open so they touch the bed. This provides a gentle stretch in my hips, and I'm getting closer to them laying flat on the floor (they touch the bed, because my butt obviously sinks in. I prefer this to the floor where I feel more strain then stretch as gravity trys too hard for me)

For reference (because I've been told "frog" is VERY bad, unless you already have the turnout)
Butterfly: http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-s.../images/s2.gif
Butterfly lying down: http://www.pilates-back-joint-exerci.../butterfly.jpg (goal is to get the knees to the floor)
Frog: http://gvc04.virtualclassroom.org/gv...s/stretch5.jpg

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Some people, even very good skaters otherwise, simply can't do them because their bodies aren't made that way. I agree with Skittl - turnout should come from the hips. Forcing from the knees and ankles will do more harm than good. Exercises to improve hip turnout can help to a degree, but you can't force the move beyond what your body is designed to do.

ballet class...the only way to improve turnout. Gymnastics wont help it's all paralell

I've said this many times here already, but I'm willing to reiterate. Per my DD's pediatric orthopedic surgeon:

Turn out is from the hips, and is determined by the hip architecture, which is fixed by the age of two.

Stretching can help, but there is a max turn out built into your hips, and that's what you've got, like it or not.

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Can she do the correct position without her skates on? I'm reasonably flexible for an adult (can do hydroblades, front and back, shoot the duck, decent spirals both legs, side spiral, etc) and have no problem with the spread eagle position off-ice (I can actually make my toes point backwards) but my inside spread eagle is marginal on-ice and I struggle with the outside. My coach and I think my boots (custom Harlicks) are just too stiff. Could be a boot issue.

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I can get into a spread eagle off ice in shoes, but the back of my boots dig in to my calves so I can't do it in them. I've just got synchro boots and the lower backs on them mean that I've got a chance to do these now as in standing around off the ice I can actually get into the position. I think the boot issue sounds plausible as well. There is presumably a reason why synchro boots are lower cut as I've not heard any arguements for why they'd need to be otherwise. Synchro blades being shorter makes sense with all the feet flying around, but no one has ever explained why they have lower cut boots.

The fact that she can do an inside spread eagle but not an outside makes me wonder if the problem is stemming from her hips, not necessarily from the lack of turn out, but from incorrect alignment.

Sometimes when a skater's hips are too far back (as if he/she is sticking the butt out) and the shoulders or upper body get too far ahead, getting over the outside edge for the outside spread eagle becomes difficult due to this break in posture.

If, however, your daughter is not breaking at the waist, then the problem is likely attributed to an inability to turn out from the hips, as dbny emphasizes. Unfortunately, some skaters just aren't "built" for spread eagles (or other open-hip moves) and will struggle.

ISI has this requirement in FS 9 that there must be a Arabesque/Bauer/Spread Eagle Combination. I wonder why it's there! I find it daunting- not that I can reach that level, but it's something i find impossible to do. I can do a decent frog and butterfly, but no 180 degree turn-out when standing!

fsk8r - Maybe the lower cut is because of all the pointing synchro skaters do? I don't get why synchro skates and dance skates are different anyway.

OP - All the best to your daughter!

I could never reach FS 9. But I was told to try to do a spread eagle in an early LTS lesson, by someone who did mohawks from that position, which understandably works better for some students than others. And it was taught as part of various "adult" classes I took which intermixed entry level FS and dance moves, maybe because it doesn't look as dangerous as jumps.

You aren't under the impression that skating is an egalitarian sport, that everyone is supposed to be able to do everything if they just try hard, are you? Anything seriously competitive is elitist. Those of us with any limitations, like flexibility or money, can only go so far.

People with the extreme flexibility you need to skate or do some forms of dance really well, have to have unhealthy (potentially unstable, shallow socket) bone shapes, and dangerously loose ligaments. It's quite common, maybe even normal, for them to have dislocations, disluctions, various forms of arthritus and severe join pain, often by their teens. Maybe you should be glad she can't easily do an outside spread eagle.

Just like ballet. The very "first position" (and the "second position" too) requires essentially 180 degree turn-out. A lot of ballerinas are unhealthy too.

There are sports where you might reach higher levels without as much flexibility. I'm not sure why I like skating, when flexibility will always limit me. But once you get started in anything, it's hard to stop. Maybe because it is a challenge.

You can try to train for strength and endurance too. You can use your muscles to push your range of motion (strength is specific not only to particular muscles, but to different parts of your range of motion for those muscles). I think most people need a little strength to do a spread eagle while gliding on ice.

But you don't need 180 degree turn-out to do an inside spread eagle, if you lean it backwards, and/or push one foot a little further forwards. A good coach or many good skaters could show her how to get by with somewhat little less.

Do not force the hips into a position that they can't reach. You could overstress the ligaments and the hip capsule. As previous posters have said, your hips are built a certain way, and you can't change that. Stretching will increase the muscle flexibility, but not necessarily the joint mobility.

Query's right. I've worked with many synchro skaters, who are otherwise great skaters, but who can't achieve a spectacular position (or any position) on spread eagles or ina bauers simply because of the way they are built.

Although it's not always ideal because you can lose that bit of synchronicity, one thing that works is to tailor these elements for these closed-hip skaters, which I've seen several synchro teams do. There are ways to "fake" a bauer, which is what we had to do one season for a particular skater who skated on one of the teams I help coach.

For instance, this team was to perform bauers attached in their line and we had one girl who just couldn't hit that position and hold it. What we ended up doing was having all the skaters who could do the bauer do a regular bauer position and the closed-hip skater basicallly glide forward with her other (free) foot/knee--in as open as she could get it--lifted slightly off the ice and tucked in free foot to heel. You really couldn't tell looking at the team as a whole.

One young skater I know can't do a spread-eagle for love nor money, she's not built like that - but she does a mean "pigeon eagle" with her toes turned in! My coach, who has naturally great turnout, is awestruck!

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Ice dancers have lovely big curves!

I can do a pigeon eagle too, but I hate it. About the only thing turn in is good for is swizzles and snowplow stops , although I've heard that good turn out contributes to a large wrap on triples (which would never be my problem anyway ).

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I can do an inside spread eagle, but I've never had a strong bauer and I can't even imagine what an outside spread eagle feels like.

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Still, don't be too quick to dismiss it as a lost case, "her hips are wrongly built" etc..

No need for ballet just yet, either. What's to stop her practicing the 5 positions at home, as well as the spread eagle? 10 minutes each day, gradually trying to increase turn out (if she can learn to do it more than 180 degrees on the floor, a good ice position is guaranteed!) she will get it eventually.

Things to remember: do not stick out the bum!!, keep a straight back (arch it a little if she can)

Start on a strong outside edge, swing the free leg forward and then back, turning the foot out as far as possible as it swings back, and placing it on the ice firmly (at 180degrees). Do not be scared!!!

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The big problem with this is that she will probably get the turn out fairly easily, BUT, it will be from the knee and ankes, not the hips. This can lead to all kinds of problems and injury. She need someone who knows what they are doing do the exercises with her so they can make sure she is doing it correctly.

That's exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the hips being too far behind the body, which is what creates that break at the waist and makes the butt stick out.

And, there's no such thing as being "wrongly built", but rather different body types. Some skaters, no matter how hard they practice, will simply never achieve a strong spread eagle position. Why I think that skaters with closed hips have trouble with this is because of their joint mobility and bone structure, two body issues that really cannot be altered all that much, if at all.

Increasing Joint Mobility

BTW, you can increase joint mobility, unless it is limited by bone shape. That, potentially, is precisely the problem with developing turn-out too far. If the bones are not held to within safe positions by ligaments and joint capsules (which are sometimes considered to be ligaments), because you have stretched those structures too much, injuries can occur - damage to cartilage and the membranes that surround some bones, joint inflammation (arthritus) and the damage it does, tears in muscles and ligaments, once in a while bone avulsions and fractures, and no doubt a few other bad things. So say the books.

Increasing joint mobility, aside from stretching attached muscles (which are often excluded from "joint mobility" definitions), generally includes stretching various ligamentous tissue structures, sometimes including joint capsules. That is supposed to be relatively slow and inefficient compared to stretching muscle tissue structures, but is also extremely slow to correct itself if you over-stretch - especially slow (sometimes never) if you develop scars or inflammation within those structures. Muscles, in most people, stretch much more quickly and easily, and return to taut length much more quickly - often a few days if you don't keep stretching them.

Very long-time stretches, like opening up your hips under the weight of legs while sleeping to increase turn-out, tend to stretch ligaments as well as muscles, and are therefore much more dangerous. If you hold a stretch less than 60-90 seconds (there is a lot of diagreement between sources), you mostly just stretch muscle, which is much safer. Particularly if you proceed the stretch with a physiological warm-up, which warms up muscles, so they stretch easier.

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My Theory about ballet vs skating injuries

I have a theory, but absolutely no data to support it.

AFAIK, no skating jumps take off or land from a strongly turned out position. But ballet jumps take off and land in many positions, including turned out positions.

In addition, skating jumps glide through take offs and landings, whereas (so said a ballerina I once met who also did skate jumps) most ballet jumps take off and land from standing positions.

To make matters worse, ballerinas often jump and land on fully pointed toes, a completely insane position from an injury prevention perspective, which leaves virtually no margin for error in alignment and timing.

These things, according to my unsubstantiated theory, mean that some ballet jumps potentially generate much more stress on the body than skating jumps.

Thus ballerinas have to be careful about allignment, and worry about rotating ankles and knees, because ballet jumps are much more likely to injure their bodies. Whereas, according to my theory, skaters aren't as likely to injure themselves if they create excess joint mobility, because skaters don't injure themselves very often through excess mobility. (Unless they do something else stressful, like aggressive downhill skiing.) (Skaters fall a lot more, and get injured thereby, but I think a very small fraction of skating fall injuries involve excess mobility.)

I'm not saying there is no danger, but maybe this explains why skating coaches often tell people to rotate through ankles and knees, whereas ballet teachers are horrified by the idea. And why skating (and ballroom dance) jumps and lifts sometimes involve non-vertical alignment, which horrifies ballet people.

Does that theory make sense to people who do both skating and ballet jumps, or who understand the medical aspects?

I've tried to do a spread eagle for years and years and years and can't get more than a bad faked outside one, so I've given up. You can do all the stretches you want, but if your hip bones aren't set in the sockets just right, noting is going to help.

You really don't want to be doing spread eagles if the turnout is from the knees and not the hips, it's only going to lead to injuries down the road (hence why I've given up).

Synchro skaters who aren't built right are pretty much having to do spread eagles incorrectly from the knees in order to make the top teams, as it is worth a lot of points in the MIF section of a junior or senior program. I imagine knee problems from these skaters who are doing them this way are going to become MUCH more prevalent...it's not like freestyle where if you can't do it well, you have the choice to leave it out of the program. Synchro...you're one of the few who can't do it naturally from the hips...too darn bad, you do it from the knees if you want to make the team. And if that's the case, you hope the way it gets set up is so you can fake it without too much damage (i.e. being the anchor of a line in pivoting/fanning block or similar configuration doing spread eagles where you can get away with faking it more than one of the people on the outside end of your line).

This won't work under IJS though. If it's one skater, maybe two, you're fine. Otherwise you're not going to get credit if it's 3+. Trust me, they notice. My old club had a TS on our coaching staff who came to most of our practices, and she noticed EVERYTHING. And if you do get the level called, if the synchronization is screwed up, it'll still get downgraded by the judges. (I always notice the one cheating a bauer or spread eagle, she's usually the one with a "Please don't look at me right now" expression on her face.)

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I totally understand! Thankfully, we only had one girl, so we were able to squeak that fake by. (I'm sure the judges noticed though...kind of hard not to, like you said.)